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BuckGup

How bad is Weed?

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5 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

The problem is that there are plenty of stoners out there making bs claims about how the oils and pot are this cure to everything, and yes there are plenty of people who are anti-marijuana and oil people for various reasons, making bs claims.  Not many from either side look at the research they're promoting either.

Agreed - this is what pisses me off.

 

On one side you have the dumbass stoner morons who think making a cannabis tea will cure them of diabetes, and on the other side you've got fear mongering hard-right conservatives (no offense to all moderate, open minded conservatives) who think one single joint is going to turn you into a psychopath and you'll murder babies and puppies.

 

Seriously folks - there's a middle ground. It's nice in here.


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3 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Agreed - this is what pisses me off.

 

On one side you have the dumbass stoner morons who think making a cannabis tea will cure them of diabetes, and on the other side you've got fear mongering hard-right conservatives (no offense to all moderate, open minded conservatives) who think one single joint is going to turn you into a psychopath and you'll murder babies and puppies.

 

Seriously folks - there's a middle ground. It's nice in here.

I get told all the time to try the oils for epilepsy when the study done wasn't even targeting what I have.  e.e "Oh, but the benefits!"  What benefits?  The made up ones?


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1 minute ago, valdyrgramr said:

I get told all the time to try the oils for epilepsy when the study done wasn't even targeting what I have.  e.e "Oh, but the benefits!"  What benefits?  The made up ones?

Yep. Some people I know occasionally share that pseudoscientific BS on Facebook.

 

Look, yes, there are some things Cannabis is good at, medically speaking. But most of what people share is simply wrong, or at best, has a tenuous link with no solid evidence.

 

Cannabis should be studied more, though. But that's difficult in the US when it's a schedule 1 narcotic. At least in Canada we're legalizing it at the national level, which will open up research opportunities to a much more significant degree.


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5 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Yep. Some people I know occasionally share that pseudoscientific BS on Facebook.

 

Look, yes, there are some things Cannabis is good at, medically speaking. But most of what people share is simply wrong, or at best, has a tenuous link with no solid evidence.

 

Cannabis should be studied more, though. But that's difficult in the US when it's a schedule 1 narcotic. At least in Canada we're legalizing it at the national level, which will open up research opportunities to a much more significant degree.

I had a psych teacher trying to convince us it was bad because it reshaped the brain.  The same thing he quoted stated that it also didn't matter because the body adapted to the change, but he didn't want us to know that.


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2 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

I had a psych teacher trying to convince us it was bad because it reshaped the brain.  The same thing he quoted stated that it also didn't matter because the body adapted to the change, but he didn't want us to know that.

And while studies show that younger brains might be more affected by it, adult brains are generally perfectly adept at adapting to the changes and functioning as normal.

 

With that in mind, if someone is at higher risk of psychosis or other severe mental illnesses, they should probably avoid Cannabis.


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5 hours ago, Egg-Roll said:

Red wine mostly if I remember correctly.

 

Ummm mostly red wine... The others are able to be beneficial other way w/o drinking crap.

 

I wouldn't trust a site who can't be arsed to quote their sources.

But as mentioned previously, if you don't drink you can get everything threw healthy eating.

 

Subjective to size and weight of a person ;) In situations like this sometimes less is more.

We weren't addressing 'mostly wine', but rather 'just wine'.

 

Yes beer does have health benefits, in small quantities. 

 

Healthy eating takes far more effort than most people are willing to put into it to, the point however was that dismissing the idea that small amounts of alcohol are simply and always still bad for you.

 

Also if youre not going to trust anything without sources, in that case then wheres your legitimate source on why you simply shouldn't start drinking if you already dont, and what are the (valid) reasons not to?


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4 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

And yes, you might be able to get these same outcomes via other sources, such as grapes. Sure. So what? That doesn't take away the fact that alcoholic beverages consumed in small daily amounts (1-2 drinks per day) seem to have more benefits than risks.

Wait a minute, "more benefits than risks" is not the conclusion I got from that video. The conclusion of the video was that a moderate assumption of alcohol is safe, and that it may be healthy for many (but not all).

Like he says in the video:

1) The evidence is not all that conclusive. Or in his words, "not a slam dunk". There are quite a few contradicting studies and it's hard to determine which ones are actually correct, if any. Or maybe the subject is so complex it is hard to make generalized statements at all. If your risk of liver diseases goes up but your risk of hearth diseases goes down, is that a good or bad thing?

 

2) It highly depends on what beverage you're talking about. Beer for example is very calorie dense, and not something you should recommend drinking even if we assume the alcohol in it has benefits (see point 1). And yes, I know beer also contains some nutrients, but overall it is not a particularly good thing to drink compared to a lot of other things.

 

3) When the studies are talking about drinking moderately, they are talking about fairly low amounts of alcohol. For example the "changes in alcohol intake and morality" study found that people who drink 1-6 servings of an alcoholic beverage a week has the lowest overall morality rate. The serving portion of wine is defined as 5 ounces (or roughly 15 cl in the metric system). That is to say, if you do take an alcoholic drink almost everyday (which is when you potentially get the health benefits), you should not drink enough for it to be your only drink for the meal (unless it's something with very little alcohol on it, like light beer).

A lot of people who think they drink in moderation, don't.

 

3) As the video says, alcohol can be very, very harmful when abused. So harmful that you should not recommend people start drinking. Conclusions of studies are rarely "you should drink alcohol" no matter how positive the results may be, and doctors do not recommend it. 22.7% of all people who try alcohol becomes dependent on it, which is higher than those who try cocaine (20.9%).

 

 

At the end of the day, you should not try to justify drinking beer and smoking weed because "it's good for you". It's not. If there are health benefits they are rather minuscule compared to let's say taking a jog rather than drinking a glass of wine.

If you want to justify drinking (moderately) then do so by saying you like it. I can find evidence that suggests eating cake is healthy too, but I won't try and justify eating cake by saying there are health benefits to eating cake. I will justify it by saying I like the taste and you have to enjoy life a little, just like I would justify taking a drink every now and again if someone questioned me about it.

 

 

By the way, the person who made that video has pretty good article regarding alcohol vs marijuana. I highly recommend reading it but here is the conclusion for those interested:

Quote

None of these arguments I’ve presented are “pro pot” in the sense that I’m saying that adolescents should go use marijuana without worrying about consequences. There’s little question that marijuana carries with it risks to people who use it, as well as to the nation. The number of people who will be hurt from it, will hurt others because of it, begin to abuse it, and suffer negative consequences from it are certainly greater than zero. But looking only at those dangers, and refusing to grapple with them in the context of our society’s implicit consent for alcohol use in young adults, is irrational.

 

When someone asks me whether I’d rather my children use pot or alcohol, after sifting through all the studies and all the data, I still say “neither.” Usually, I say it more than once. But if I’m forced to make a choice, the answer is “marijuana.”

 

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The vast majority of people who start drinking alcohol are able to drink it responsibly throughout the rest of their lives.

 

If everyone that ever took a sip of beer ended up being addicted and being drunk all the time, the whole of every society would collapse.


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7 minutes ago, Bhav said:

We weren't addressing 'mostly wine', but rather 'just wine'.

 

Yes beer does have health benefits, in small quantities. 

 

Healthy eating takes far more effort than most people are willing to put into it to, the point however was that dismissing the idea that small amounts of alcohol are simply and always still bad for you.

 

Also if youre not going to trust anything without sources, in that case then wheres your legitimate source on why you simply shouldn't start drinking if you already dont, and what are the (valid) reasons not to?

The problem is that, with alcohol, you have more people using health benefits as an excuse to drink more.  Yes, there are people who do drink in moderations, but there are more people using it as an excuse.  Very common one, "I can drink all the wine I want because it is good for my heart."  That the problem with addictive substances.


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2 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Wait a minute, "more benefits than risks" is not the conclusion I got from that video. The conclusion of the video was that a moderate assumption of alcohol is safe, and that it may be healthy for many (but not all).

Like he says in the video:

1) The evidence is not all that conclusive. Or in his words, "not a slam dunk". There are quite a few contradicting studies and it's hard to determine which ones are actually correct, if any. Or maybe the subject is so complex it is hard to make generalized statements at all. If your risk of liver diseases goes up but your risk of hearth diseases goes down, is that a good or bad thing?

 

2) It highly depends on what beverage you're talking about. Beer for example is very calorie dense, and not something you should recommend drinking even if we assume the alcohol in it has benefits (see point 1). And yes, I know beer also contains some nutrients, but overall it is not a particularly good thing to drink compared to a lot of other things.

 

3) When the studies are talking about drinking moderately, they are talking about fairly low amounts of alcohol. For example the "changes in alcohol intake and morality" study found that people who drink 1-6 servings of an alcoholic beverage a week has the lowest overall morality rate. The serving portion of wine is defined as 5 ounces (or roughly 15 cl in the metric system). That is to say, if you do take an alcoholic drink almost everyday (which is when you potentially get the health benefits), you should not drink enough for it to be your only drink for the meal (unless it's something with very little alcohol on it, like light beer).

 

3) As the video says, alcohol can be very, very harmful when abused. So harmful that you should not recommend people start drinking. Conclusions of studies are rarely "you should drink alcohol" no matter how positive the results may be, and doctors do not recommend it. 22.7% of all people who try alcohol becomes dependent on it, which is higher than those who try cocaine (20.9%).

 

 

At the end of the day, you should not try to justify drinking beer and smoking weed because "it's good for you". It's not. If there are health benefits they are rather minuscule compared to let's say taking a jog rather than drinking a glass of wine.

If you want to justify drinking (moderately) then do so by saying you like it. I can find evidence that suggests eating cake is healthy too, but I won't try and justify eating cake by saying there are health benefits to eating cake. I will justify it by saying I like the taste and you have to enjoy life a little, just like I would justify taking a drink every now and again.

 

 

By the way, the person who made that video has pretty good article regarding alcohol vs marijuana. I highly recommend reading it but here is the conclusion for those interested:

 

I'll stand by my statement. He said that the research indicated that the negatives (increases in Cancers, etc) were less significant than the benefits (decrease in heart disease, and decrease in death from "all outcomes").

 

No, it's not a slam dunk. I'l agree there.

 

But the rest? Yes, everyone, including myself, knows that if you abuse alcohol, it's OH MY GOD SO MASSIVELY WORSE than almost anything that humans consume regularly. Binge drinking, alcoholism, etc, are all very serious, and very deadly.

 

But if someone wants to drink (and currently doesn't), and they are:

1. Of legal age

2. A responsible adult

3. Has no prior history of addiction problems

4. Has no increased risk of addiction due to genetic/hereditary factors

I have no problems with them starting.

 

I'm not justifying drinking by saying you SHOULD drink because it's "good for you". I'm saying that if you want to drink, and you're a smart person who will be responsible? Just fucking do it. The harms are extremely minor, and there are potential health benefits.

 

Don't do it because of the health benefits. Those are just a bonus.

 

Others might try to justify drinking or smoking weed because "it's good for you", but I certainly didn't. Any potential health benefits are simply a bonus, for doing something you enjoy doing.


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4 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

The problem is that, with alcohol, you have more people using health benefits as an excuse to drink more.  Yes, there are people who do drink in moderations, but there are more people using it as an excuse.  Very common one, "I can drink all the wine I want because it is good for my heart."  That the problem with addictive substances.

I have zero experiences of ever meeting any such person, and 99.9% of people I've met drink alcohol.

 

I also don't agree with the basic idea that 'alcohol is an addictive substance'.

 

For it to get addictive, you need to already be abusing it for years. It has zero properties that make it immediately addicting or dependency inducing at the recommended weekly limits.


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4 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

The problem is that, with alcohol, you have more people using health benefits as an excuse to drink more.  Yes, there are people who do drink in moderations, but there are more people using it as an excuse.  Very common one, "I can drink all the wine I want because it is good for my heart."  That the problem with addictive substances.

This would be another example of a dumbass extremist (alcoholic) who uses "science" (incorrectly) to assert their position to drink as much as they want.

 

Science research is extremely clear about the fact that you need to drink small amounts to get the health benefits, while reducing the risks. If you start to drink a lot, the risks start to massively outweigh the benefits.

 

As always, addiction does terrible things, and alcohol can be extremely addictive.


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14 minutes ago, Bhav said:

I have zero experiences of ever meeting any such person, and 99.9% of people I've met drink alcohol.

 

I also don't agree with the basic idea that 'alcohol is an addictive substance'.

 

For it to get addictive, you need to already be abusing it for years. It has zero properties that make it immediately addicting or dependency inducing at the recommended weekly limits.

The problem is that someone using an addictive substance of any kind aren't exactly a reliable source on if they're an addict or not, let alone the people close to them, because an addict is very unlikely to claim that they are an addict.  It's the same thing with an insane person.  They won't see themselves that way when they really are.  I'm not saying these people are or aren't drunks I'm just saying they're unlikely to view it from an unbiased viewpoint let alone people who know them.  You also don't need to be abusing it for years for it to be addictive as there are many other factors that contradict that.

11 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

This would be another example of a dumbass extremist (alcoholic) who uses "science" (incorrectly) to assert their position to drink as much as they want.

 

Science research is extremely clear about the fact that you need to drink small amounts to get the health benefits, while reducing the risks. If you start to drink a lot, the risks start to massively outweigh the benefits.

 

As always, addiction does terrible things, and alcohol can be extremely addictive.

Exactly


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1 hour ago, dalekphalm said:

I bought a G-Pen (dried herb version), and found it to be pretty crap. Used it a few times, and stuck it on a shelf after that. And I wouldn't want to shell out $300+ for a proper Volcano type vape.

 

The resin/oil version is probably a lot more effective, but it's a lot less convenient to get resin/oil - at least for now.

I got mine for 20 bucks from a friend so it didn't cost me much but they are totally worth it in my opinion.


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4 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

The problem is that someone using an addictive substance of any kind aren't exactly a reliable source on if they're an addict or not, let alone the people close to them, because an addict is very unlikely to claim that they are an addict.  It's the same thing with an insane person.  They won't see themselves that way when they really are.  I'm not saying these people are or aren't drunks I'm just saying they're unlikely to view it from an unbiased viewpoint let alone people who know them.  You also don't need to be abusing it for years for it to be addictive as there are many other factors that contradict that.

Exactly

Likewise people who dont take addictive substances of any kind arent exactly a reliable source of information on addictive substances as they have zero experience of them, and they are mostly brainwashed into the anti drug hysteria by the media.

 


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1 minute ago, Bhav said:

Likewise people who dont take addictive substances of any kind arent exactly a reliable source of information on addictive substances as they have zero experience of them, and they are mostly brainwashed into the anti drug hysteria by the media.

You're only partially correct. Yes, having personal experience with some of these substances does have merit. But we can all look at peer reviewed research (assuming said research exists) to come to concrete conclusions.

 

Unfortunately, many of these substances lacks good quality research.


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Just now, dalekphalm said:

You're only partially correct. Yes, having personal experience with some of these substances does have merit. But we can all look at peer reviewed research (assuming said research exists) to come to concrete conclusions.

 

Unfortunately, many of these substances lacks good quality research.

But youre still only partially correct about your partial part.

 

9/10 anti druggos aren't reading any such material and are just jumping to conclusions based on the latest alcoholic to feature in the daily mail.


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Just now, Bhav said:

Likewise people who dont take addictive substances of any kind arent exactly a reliable source of information on addictive substances as they have zero experience of them, and they are mostly brainwashed into the anti drug hysteria by the media.

4

That's called paranoia which is associated with addictive substances.


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47 minutes ago, Bhav said:

The vast majority of people who start drinking alcohol are able to drink it responsibly throughout the rest of their lives.

 

If everyone that ever took a sip of beer ended up being addicted and being drunk all the time, the whole of every society would collapse.

I feel like laws relaxing the prohibitions on marijuana will make it less addictive if that makes any sense, the constant threat of something being taken away makes people work a lot harder to get it all the time at least that's the way it was when I was in college 14 years ago.

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1 hour ago, valdyrgramr said:

The problem is that there are plenty of stoners out there making bs claims about how the oils and pot are this cure to everything, and yes there are plenty of people who are anti-marijuana and oil people for various reasons, making bs claims.  Not many from either side look at the research they're promoting either.

The thing is, I would rather stand in a room full of stoned people than a room full of drunk people. Alcohol is so bad for your health, it is one of the worst drugs out there. And it makes people extremely violent. 

 

I am willing to bet that crime will drop dramatically if people made the switch from alcohol to weed. 

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2 minutes ago, kokakolia said:

The thing is, I would rather stand in a room full of stoned people than a room full of drunk people. Alcohol is so bad for your health, it is one of the worst drugs out there. And it makes people extremely violent. 

 

I am willing to bet that crime will drop dramatically if people made the switch from alcohol to weed. 

Honestly, I would rather not be in a room full of either.  But, from experience, Stoners aren't as bad as alcoholics.  So, I can agree on that point.


VashTheStampede 4.0:

CPU: AMD Threadripper 1950x | CPU Cooling: EKWB S280 with the EK Supremacy sTR4 RGB Nickel Water Block and Scarlet Red Premix | Compound: Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut | Mobo: Asrock X399 Taichi | Ram: G.Skill Ripjaws V 32GBs (2x16) DDR4-3200 | Storage: Crucial MX500 500GB M.2-2280 SSD/PNY CS900 240GB SSD/Seagate Constellation ES.3 1TB 7200RPM/Toshiba X300 4TB 7200RPM | GPU: Zotac Geforce GTX 1080 8GB AMP! Edition | Case: Fractal Define R5 Blackout Edition w/Window | PSU: EVGA SuperNOVA G2 750W 80+ Gold | Optical Drive: LG WH14NS40 | Operating System: Windows 10 Pro | Keyboard: Corsair Vengeance K70 with Cherry MX Reds | Mouse: Corsair M65 Pro RGB FPS | Headphones:  AKG K7XX Massdrop Editions | Mic: Audio-Technica ATR2500 | Speakers: Mackie MR624 Studio Monitors

 

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17 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Honestly, I would rather not be in a room full of either.  But, from experience, Stoners aren't as bad as alcoholics.  So, I can agree on that point.

And I wouldn't want to be in a room full of anyone unless I was on drugs to make other people more bearable.


Linus is my fetish.

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2 minutes ago, Bhav said:

And wouldn't want to be in a room of anyone's unless I was on drugs to make other people more bearable.

That's...depressing...


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Prince of Dark Rock:

CPU: AMD Ryzen 3 2200G(Temp/Upping to a Zen 2 CPU) | CPU Cooling: be quiet! Dark Rock Pro 4 | Compound: Thermal Grizzly Kryronaut | Mobo: Asrock x470 Taichi | Ram: G.Skill Ripjaws V 8GBs (2x4) DDR4-3200 | Storage: Crucial MX200 240GB SSD+Seagate Constellation ES.3 1TB 7200RPM | GPU: EVGA GTX 1060 6GB 6 GB SSC GAMING  | Case: Fractal Focus G | PSU: EVGA SuperNOVA G2 750W 80+ Gold | Optical Drive: Random HP DVD Drive | Operating System: Windows 10 Home | Keyboard: Gigabyte FORCE K83 with Cherry MX Reds | MouseRazer DeathAdder Elite Destiny 2 Edition Speakers: JBL LSR 305 Studio Monitors(At some point)

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1 hour ago, Bhav said:

Likewise people who dont take addictive substances of any kind arent exactly a reliable source of information on addictive substances as they have zero experience of them, and they are mostly brainwashed into the anti drug hysteria by the media.

No, you do not need to have experience with something to be educated about the subject.

 

 

1 hour ago, Bhav said:

But youre still only partially correct about your partial part.

 

9/10 anti druggos aren't reading any such material and are just jumping to conclusions based on the latest alcoholic to feature in the daily mail.

People in general aren't reading research papers, and even those who think they are "educated" about subjects have not researched it properly. That goes for both sides.

For example they might have a predefined conclusion and then search for evidence that supports that theory. Examples of this would be searching on Google for "benefits of marijuana" or "marijuana is bad because", both of which will result in very slanted articles appearing. In other cases they might not even read scientific journals for themselves, but rather rely on someone's interpretation of a study. Someone who might have an agenda of their own.

 

Confirmation bias is very real, and very powerful.

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18 minutes ago, Bhav said:

And I wouldn't want to be in a room full of anyone unless I was on drugs to make other people more bearable.

Sounds like you’ve been to too many awful parties xD

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