? Tesla Truck Kinda Edgy Tho - Tesla releases oddly polygonal pickup truck

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, atxcyclist said:

It would work a lot better, but very few residential areas have that infrastructure. I work in the architectural design field, it's somewhat rare for commercial buildings to have 480v availible.

It's not hard to get 3 Phase (400V) In Australian homes as majority of the street wiring is 3 phase.  I looked at a few that had it already installed when I was buying 20 years ago.  

[Bombastinator]

2 minutes ago, amdorintel said:

110v is 220, its split off at your own panel.

Sort of. 110v is One phase. 220 is 2 phase.  Old areas like mine have 2 phase power. 2 110v cables running to the house from the pole along with a ground, so three wires.

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, amdorintel said:

i am not sure what country you are from, but 3 phase power is used.

 

https://www.worldstandards.eu/three-phase-electric-power/

Most 230/240V countries don't really require 3 phase unless you're an engineering workshop or large server room. Residential it's extremely rare to have 3 phase, people have gotten it installed and others get a second 63A single phase run and either split across them or combine/convert to 3 phase.

 

63A single phase is a hell of a lot of power, 14.4kw so it's few and far between that need more than that.

[atxcyclist]

2 minutes ago, amdorintel said:

 

i am not sure what country you are from, but 3 phase power is used.

 

https://www.worldstandards.eu/three-phase-electric-power/

The United States, but many areas do not have the distribution of three-phase power in them.

[Bombastinator]

3 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

The United States, but many areas do not have the distribution of three-phase power in them.

True.  Pretty much every residential home in the country has 2 phase though.

[atxcyclist]

Just now, Bombastinator said:

True.  Pretty much every residential home in the country has 2 phase though.

Yes. Most municipalities will allow 300amp 2-phase residential service, so the level 2 chargers are easy to install.

[circeseye]

what i dont understand.....something is always spinning while moving..why cant a high volt alternator or generator be attached somewhere to supply extra charge?

[Bombastinator]

Just now, atxcyclist said:

Yes. Most municipalities will allow 300amp 2-phase residential service, so the level 2 chargers are easy to install.

And I was told to not even bother to do that.  Just put in a 220 dryer outlet.

[Bombastinator]

6 minutes ago, circeseye said:

what i dont understand.....something is always spinning while moving..why cant a high volt alternator or generator be attached somewhere to supply extra charge?

Perpetual motion problem. Putting a generator on a spinning part makes the part harder to spin.  They used to have little generators for bicycle lights powered off the wheel.  Made the things a PITA to peddle though so you don’t see them any more.  They’d work great for LED bicycle lights though.  Less power draw.  The old ones were incandescent.

 

this is what regenerative braking actually is. You slow the car and put the energy of the moving car back into the batteries.

[circeseye]

2 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Perpetual motion problem. Putting a generator on a spinning part makes the part harder to spin.  They used to have little generators for bicycle lights powered off the wheel.  Made the things a PITA to peddle though so you don’t see them any more.  They’d work great for LED bicycle lights though.  Less power draw.  The old ones were incandescent.

true but using 2 or 3 different size pully's can make something hard to spin very easy. gears even in tight space

[Bombastinator]

16 minutes ago, circeseye said:

true but using 2 or 3 different size pully's can make something hard to spin very easy. gears even in tight space

Or easy to spin. Mechanical advantage is like that.

 

UPDATE: I should add please please don’t bother trying to argue your way around the laws of thermodynamics. I know it’s tried on the internet a lot but it doesn’t work.

Edited November 25, 2019 by Bombastinator
Update

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, circeseye said:

true but using 2 or 3 different size pully's can make something hard to spin very easy. gears even in tight space

You can't create energy, the best you can do is minimize energy loss to areas that aren't beneficial, I.E heat, sound and fighting against wind resistance.  Because energy cannot be created or destroyed, whatever you gain from gearing you loose in either time or power.   \

 

This means if you put a pulley on on the wheels so it spins up an alternator all you are doing is changing the amount of energy created from hard in a few seconds to really easy but over an impractically longer period.  You might gain some power back, but it will be significantly less than what is lost to the extra regeneration in that process. Which equals a net loss of power for no gain.

[amdorintel]

32 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

You don't need Tesla Service center for it.

but you do for other things

 

i watched a little of rich rebuilds, tesla videos. tesla doesnt want the consumer to work on their own vehicles, which is valid to some degree.

 

thats the only point i want to make.

if level 1 charging is 110v, then yeah thats valid for a very short commute, but if theres cold weather better look into level 2 if that means 240v.

 

the commercial charging stations look neat, i have never seen them in person, aside from the city ones in parkades and a couple in the community school. i am quite versed on working on electric motors, controllers and building batteries. comparitive i wished i had a 1kw pack on my current tricycle, because its 36v is a good speed and i average usage out at 20wh/km. I got no clue what a ev would use, in terms of battery voltage, the amps it puts out, the wh of an ev's pack, or the wh/km it uses. perhaps 300 or 400wh/km, is my best guess, voltage wise, i'd say 300vdc, amp wise 100a maybe. if someone could find it and post it that would be great. thanx

[Man]

 

 

Forgive me for intervening in your conversation (argument?) out of nowhere but... I think your points are rather moot. 

 

First thing first, I'm not an environmentalist or an EV buff. There wouldn't be a smokey 2-Stroke Yamaha parked in my garage right now if I was one! But despite that, I truly admire Tesla Model 5 and the new Cybertruck, not merely because they are EVs, but because they are practical, dependable and reliable vehicles suitable for 99.99% of people out there. 

 

And as for your argument:

 

36 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

They don't have 8 hours to give up in the middle of work to charge their vehicle.

36 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

You might be able to get away with your vehicle being down for 8 hours, but that's your 9-5 life. When the county sheriffs department calls a rancher at 3am because a car took a fence out, and there's cattle in that pasture they have to keep off the highway, the rancher has to go drag supplies over there and patch it immediately. 

Well, even the base model can 'theoretically' do 400 kilometers on a single charge. Besides, most Tesla owners keep their charge between 40% to 80%, for maximum longevity of the cell. 

 

You won't have to plug it in for 8 hours straight if you top-up the cell every night. Maybe 2-3 hours every day, tops. Besides, no cattle farmer works 24/7/365 and/or covers ~400 kilometers every single day; at least, not in my knowledge!

 

Long story short, I think Tesla has just re-invented the trucks, just like how the original iPhone reinvented the smartphones. The rugged stainless steel unibody that can take a sledgehammer is enough reason to buy one! Then there's the electric powertrain, which is practically maintenance free with peak torque available right on tap. 

 

Sure, it looks like a 'Mars rover' of sorts, but people who were alive in the 1920s would've said the same thing about our modern cars, so there's that. 

[Drak3]

6 minutes ago, Man said:

Then there's the electric powertrain, which is practically maintenance free with peak torque available right on tap. 

Nothing is "practically" maintenance free, and high low end torque isn't always a good thing. This thing will likely have issues with soft ground, namely mud and sand. 

 

8 minutes ago, Man said:

Besides, no cattle farmer works 24/7/365 and/or covers ~400 kilometers every single day; at least, not in my knowledge!

They don't have to do it every day, but going hundreds of miles, back and forth, isn't uncommon.

 

10 minutes ago, Man said:

Maybe 2-3 hours every day, tops.

Meanwhile, it usually takes me 20 minutes every week for my truck, and I don't need to leave something plugged in that eats up 12A  by itself.

[Taf the Ghost]

2 hours ago, mr moose said:

 

A lot of that is only a problem if the cost of parts (computers, battery banks, etc) don't fall in price or aren't scaling in cost/longevity as ICE parts do.  

 

EDIT: with regard to solar, it works fine with batteries for small consumption use like homes (my FiL is completely off grid with electric hybrid car and small workshop), it doesn't work for base load because industry is the main consumer of power dwarfing the domestic market dramatically.

 

Electric cars are here to stay and will replace ICE,  the thing we don't know is will they be charged from the mains at home or will an alternative form of power generation be developed.  Either way, when they become the mainstream, house rentals and apartments will have services in place to support it just like rentals all have dishwashers now, when appliances (car chargers being one of them) become so common they will either already be in the house when landlords buy them or they will be installed to maintain the rentability/asking rent. 

Most of the cost is always going to be the physical processing aspects. That is, all of that weight in high-spec manufactured batteries is always going to be a lot more expensive than rolled & pressed steel. And, the one utility with modern engineering in IC engines is things tend to wear in such a way that catastrophic failure is pretty rare after the initial break in perod. Pure EVs will just never have that aspect. Like I said, expensive iPhones. When they hit the end of their service life, they hit it hard. (Also of note, Tesla could very easily firmware brick their cars by accident.)

 

I'm glad the Solar Power issue has been generally settled, beyond the billions in taxpayer money wasted on overbuilding in the wrong areas. I generally don't take most "Tech Advocates" seriously after Solar in the 2000s. It's very clear they're willing shills rather than people interested in expanding useful technology to the places it would help. They somehow took a proven, useful technology and turned it into near Snake Oil.  Solar is about local, spot generation and backup/safety margins. Anyone living between the 35th parallels should really consider it on their homes, especially now as the capital costs are getting pretty decent. (Frankly, buy a Tesla PowerWall + Solar Panels over Tesla car.)

 

Electric Drive will eventually be the majority of the market. Pure EV will always be somewhere between niche and a small segment. If GM would stop being stupid, we'd already be seeing a lot more of the real hybrids. Though I have to give it to @LinusTech for putting his money where his techiness is, as he bought the right type of EV: the Chevy Volt. It's a car, it works, it just happens to be a plug-in hybrid. Though it looks like we'll have to wait a few years before everyone comes back to where this is going, since there's basically the Prius Market that went to the Tesla Market and nothing in-between. People have voted with their wallets for the time being.

[Taf the Ghost]

6 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Nothing is "practically" maintenance free, and high low end torque isn't always a good thing. This thing will likely have issues with soft ground, namely mud and sand. 

 

They don't have to do it every day, but going hundreds of miles, back and forth, isn't uncommon.

 

Meanwhile, it usually takes me 20 minutes every week for my truck, and I don't need to leave something plugged in that eats up 12A  by itself.

YT is going to be full of Cybertruck fail videos after the Urban buyers suddenly think they know how to offroad. That'll be some high humor when it happens.

[Drak3]

1 minute ago, Taf the Ghost said:

YT is going to be full of Cybertruck fail videos after the Urban buyers suddenly think they know how to offroad. That'll be some high humor when it happens.

Assuming that there are that many legitimate preorders.

 

Or that Tesla doesn't sink before they start production.

 

Or that any of us live that long.

[Taf the Ghost]

Just now, Drak3 said:

Assuming that there are that many legitimate preorders.

 

Or that Tesla doesn't sink before they start production.

 

Or that any of us live that long.

I think they'll clear between 50k and 60k of the initial deposited orders, but, with the way this model is, I kind of doubt it has much market. It feels a lot like those limited run Super Cars that'll sit stored in garages to get looked at. For that, it's really the successor to the Lamborghini Countach.

 

And, while it wouldn't have been cool, a local haul box truck from Tesla would probably clear 30-40k units per year going forward. Have a good combo deal for charge points and the ability to do 250+ miles on a charge while carrying 1 ton, and you find the space where a pure EV really can be king.

[RedRound2]

1 hour ago, amdorintel said:

but you do for other things

 

wi atched a little of rich rebuilds, tesla videos. tesla doesnt want the consumer to work on their own vehicles, which is valid to some degree.

Any software related issues and crazy mechanisms, which the cybertruck doesn't have unlike Model X and S (it's pretty much an angular steel shell with tires, motor and battery),  you'll need Tesla. But basic stuff like tires, brakes, suspension, etc, you can do it yourself while completely eliminating anything to do with engine issues, gears, oil changes, etc

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, Taf the Ghost said:

Most of the cost is always going to be the physical processing aspects. That is, all of that weight in high-spec manufactured batteries is always going to be a lot more expensive than rolled & pressed steel. And, the one utility with modern engineering in IC engines is things tend to wear in such a way that catastrophic failure is pretty rare after the initial break in perod. Pure EVs will just never have that aspect. Like I said, expensive iPhones. When they hit the end of their service life, they hit it hard. (Also of note, Tesla could very easily firmware brick their cars by accident.)

 

Batteries only need to drop by a factor of 3 to be on par with oil for energy cost (and batteries aren't the only factor to consider in an EV).  That is easily an obtainable goal.  Product manufacturing isn't quite as you claim it is with current batteries improving by about 18% in $/Kwh over the last 8 years.  And the trend is only going further down.  It is very real that with reduced moving parts, tighter tolerances and better manufacturing that crucial electric vehicle parts will become cheaper to make than the numerous conventional ICE parts required for any given life time of use.  Electric motors can be rebuilt a lot cheaper than ICE and each motor if built right and used properly will last decades. 

 

EDIT: that should read that batteries are going down in cost/Kwh by 18% on average every year for the last 8 years, not 18% over 8 years.

 

 

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/electric_vehicle_ev

https://about.bnef.com/blog/behind-scenes-take-lithium-ion-battery-prices/

https://getelectricvehicle.com/electric-car-motor-life-expectancy-how-long-an-ev-motor-last/

 

Quote

I'm glad the Solar Power issue has been generally settled, beyond the billions in taxpayer money wasted on overbuilding in the wrong areas. I generally don't take most "Tech Advocates" seriously after Solar in the 2000s. It's very clear they're willing shills rather than people interested in expanding useful technology to the places it would help. They somehow took a proven, useful technology and turned it into near Snake Oil.  Solar is about local, spot generation and backup/safety margins. Anyone living between the 35th parallels should really consider it on their homes, especially now as the capital costs are getting pretty decent. (Frankly, buy a Tesla PowerWall + Solar Panels over Tesla car.)

Install a solar and battery system (with gen backup) and get a hybrid,  with an average $50 a quarter petrol bill and no power bills ever.

 

 

Quote

Electric Drive will eventually be the majority of the market. Pure EV will always be somewhere between niche and a small segment. If GM would stop being stupid, we'd already be seeing a lot more of the real hybrids. Though I have to give it to @LinusTech for putting his money where his techiness is, as he bought the right type of EV: the Chevy Volt. It's a car, it works, it just happens to be a plug-in hybrid. Though it looks like we'll have to wait a few years before everyone comes back to where this is going, since there's basically the Prius Market that went to the Tesla Market and nothing in-between. People have voted with their wallets for the time being.

 

My FiL's missus has the Mitsubishi hybrid, I have to say I am very impressed with it's actual fuel economy.  They plug it in every day (off grid so no off peak) and the savings just do my head in.    I really think Pure EV's with only batteries will be the future unless they find a way to generate electricity without using conventional fuels.

[Taf the Ghost]

9 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

Batteries only need to drop by a factor of 3 to be on par with oil for energy cost (and batteries aren't the only factor to consider in an EV).  That is easily an obtainable goal.  Product manufacturing isn't quite as you claim it is with current batteries improving by about 18% in $/Kwh over the last 8 years.  And the trend is only going further down.  It is very real that with reduced moving parts, tighter tolerances and better manufacturing that crucial electric vehicle parts will become cheaper to make than the numerous conventional ICE parts required for any given life time of use.  Electric motors can be rebuilt a lot cheaper than ICE and each motor if built right and used properly will last decades. 

 

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/electric_vehicle_ev

https://about.bnef.com/blog/behind-scenes-take-lithium-ion-battery-prices/

https://getelectricvehicle.com/electric-car-motor-life-expectancy-how-long-an-ev-motor-last/

 

Install a solar and battery system (with gen backup) and get a hybrid,  with an average $50 a quarter petrol bill and no power bills ever.

 

 

 

My FiL's missus has the Mitsubishi hybrid, I have to say I am very impressed with it's actual fuel economy.  They plug it in every day (off grid so no off peak) and the savings just do my head in.    I really think Pure EV's with only batteries will be the future unless they find a way to generate electricity without using conventional fuels.

EV motors should last longer and be more reliable. That's the only reason Tesla is still able to sell cars. Issue is that Pure EVs have operation windows like cellphones. It's the nature of being Battery/Electric system. And if it's been 18% in 8 years (so about 2% per annum), then the lithium-ion tech is at the end of its useful expansion. If it needs 300%, it's never getting there. At least as Lithium-Ion. Much like Fusion Power, you never know exactly what could come out if someone really figures something out. (Also, Lithium-Ion tech will get progressively more expensive to see improvements. Nature of the R&D Beast.)

 

"Plug-in Hybrids" never took off because mostly of terrible marketing and the fact most of this stuff spun during the "We're all going bankrupt!" era. Not a lot of long-term planning going on. GM never made the type of car where their Series Hybrid tech would have really worked in the early generations. They needed a new sub-marque within Cadillac and they needed to roll out 100k-130k USD luxury car with the tech. They're slowly starting to offer the proper type of vehicles with the tech, but it's going to be a while.  Tesla at least got that you needed the "Party Mode" setting to really turn the 0-60 time up, even if you're going to burn through a set of the normal tires in about 20 minutes using them.

 

The power of internal generation of power is quite straight forward, but the real power of a production-level series hybrid is that you can put whatever generation unit is useful on it. You can run out Pure EV, Gas, Diesel, Hydrogen or something even more novel. Doesn't matter, you're already prepared for it. That's what GM has botched up royally. 

[Bombastinator]

8 hours ago, Taf the Ghost said:

Most of the cost is always going to be the physical processing aspects. That is, all of that weight in high-spec manufactured batteries is always going to be a lot more expensive than rolled & pressed steel.

that’s not how engines are made. Theyre not stamped tin toys as you seem to imply. There are lots of different processes for the thousands of parts in a gas engine, but they are mostly cast.  There is a lot of machining as well.  A battery pack does currently cost slightly more than an engine and gas tank.  The money is generally made back again by lowered fuel costs

And, the one utility with modern engineering in IC engines is things tend to wear in such a way that catastrophic failure is pretty rare after the initial break in perod. Pure EVs will just never have that aspect.

you seem to be making some significant claims about how physics works.  The information I have says that a physical engine wears faster, generally and such catastrophic failure at the end of the engines life will come much more quickly

 Like I said, expensive iPhones.

said where?

When they hit the end of their service life, they hit it hard. (Also of note, Tesla could very easily firmware brick their cars by accident.)

also on purpose, before the batteries reach the end of their lives. Can’t do that with a gas engine. 

 

I'm glad the Solar Power issue has been generally settled, beyond the billions in taxpayer money wasted on overbuilding in the wrong areas. I generally don't take most "Tech Advocates" seriously after Solar in the 2000s.

that much is clear.  If you took them seriously at all your position might very well be different

It's very clear they're willing shills rather than people interested in expanding useful technology to the places it would help.

more unsupported accusations of intent of others. Is this still about solar in the 2000’s?

They somehow took a proven, useful technology and turned it into near Snake Oil.

that seems to me to be what you are attempting actually

Solar is about local, spot generation and backup/safety margins.

...because high tension power lines don’t exist?  I don’t think it works this way. You already said you think electric cars and solar power are snake oil though, so I suppose for your concept to work they can’t.

Anyone living between the 35th parallels should really consider it on their homes, especially now as the capital costs are getting pretty decent. (Frankly, buy a Tesla PowerWall + Solar Panels over Tesla car.)

because solar only works between the “35th parallels”. An area including less than a quarter of the United States and none of Europe. I don’t think the sun works like that.  There ARE types of solar that work better in those regions.  Specifically solar furnace boilers.  It’s mostly to do with sun angle.  Doesn’t apply to panels though.

Electric Drive will eventually be the majority of the market. Pure EV will always be somewhere between niche and a small segment.

the ability to accurately predict the future is impressive.  It’s not impossible that might happen.  Not sure how it applies to any of this

If GM would stop being stupid, we'd already be seeing a lot more of the real hybrids. Though I have to give it to @LinusTech for putting his money where his techiness is, as he bought the right type of EV: the Chevy Volt. It's a car, it works, it just happens to be a plug-in hybrid. Though it looks like we'll have to wait a few years before everyone comes back to where this is going, since there's basically the Prius Market that went to the Tesla Market and nothing in-between. People have voted with their wallets for the time being.

ah. That’s how it applies. You first say EVs can’t work then you say they can by redefining what an EV is ever so slightly. I.e carry an almost unused mechanical engine around with them all the time.  A volt was a plug in hybrid.  It spent most of its time as a pure electric vehicle.  Many owners only ever ran their engines to maintain working order.  They were rarely if ever used.

Was.  Chevy quit making the volt.  They still make the bolt, which is full electric though.

[Man]

2 hours ago, Drak3 said:

Nothing is "practically" maintenance free, and high low end torque isn't always a good thing.

That's correct. But electric motors come pretty close to the definition. We have an old mid 70s ceiling fan in the house and it's been running strong since the past 50 years, believe it or not. I'm a 30 YO man and it required maintenance only twice in my lifetime. Both times it was a blown capacitor, which was a cheap fix. 

 

According to Jay Leno, the Baker Electric Car is the only car in his garage that's been "100% maintenance free":

 

And it should be beyond any doubt that Jay Leno know about cars more than anyone in this forum!

[GoldenLag]

3 hours ago, Drak3 said:

high low end torque isn't always a good thing. This thing will likely have issues with soft ground, namely mud and sand.

cant you just not "pedal to the metal"? having it on tap doesnt mean you will neccesarly use it. does mean you need to be better with throttle control