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GoodBytes

Microsoft to include Chromium in Windows 10 (Edge will use Chromium engine, which Chrome extention support)

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Posted · Original PosterOP
20 minutes ago, KuJoe said:

 

Just because they are both based on WebKit doesn't make them identical browsers. Even Chrome and Chromium are noticeably different if you try to switch between them. I have a completely different experience with Opera than I do with Chrome, I specifically have bookmarks that will not work on Chrome for some ungodly reason.

Yeeess, I agree, but you said that Edge was Chrome, and you made it sound like Opera was using something else, when it isn't anymore.

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Posted · Original PosterOP
23 minutes ago, kilgore_T said:

so what am i now going to use to watch full HD netflix? firefox and chrome are not full hd

that sucks

I am sure that it will have Microsoft's video codec included, so yes, you'll enjoy Netflix HD

 

And you always have the Netflix app that you can get from the Store. It recently got updated, if you haven't used it recently.

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43 minutes ago, Trixanity said:

What will happen to Microsoft's alleged power efficiency advantage if they go Chromium? Chrome itself isn't known to be battery friendly.

I am fairly sure the alleged power efficiency was bullshit to begin with.

Multiple independent reviewers tried to double check Microsoft's findings and were unable to replicate the results. My rule of thumb is to never trust benchmarks and the likes which are run by first parties, since they benefit from showing themselves in the best light and their competitors in the worst light.

 

Besides, it was a stupid test to begin with. Microsoft just played a video until the laptops' batteries ran out. Even if the tests were legitimate and trustworthy, it would just show that Edge uses less power for playing video. For all we know, it might use way more power than the other browsers for doing actual web browsing (as in, visiting websites and the like).

 

 

42 minutes ago, Tech Enthusiast said:

Dear god, no!

Without telemetry software would suck big donkey balls most of the time.

We would constantly get software that does stuff we never use and not stuff we actually want to use. Most features we take for granted would not work at all.

 

If you think software is bad now, you have no idea how bad it would be without telemetry stuff.

Telemetry is in no way shape or form required for making good programs. There are countless of fantastic programs out there which do not use telemetry, or at least make it optional. How do they know which features to implement and remove? Common sense and listening to feedback.

 

 

37 minutes ago, KuJoe said:

 

Just because they are both based on WebKit doesn't make them identical browsers. Even Chrome and Chromium are noticeably different if you try to switch between them. I have a completely different experience with Opera than I do with Chrome, I specifically have bookmarks that will not work on Chrome for some ungodly reason.

Really? That sounds really weird. Got any examples of websites that work in Opera but not in Chrome?

They should behave the same so my guess is that there are some addons causing or fixing issues for you.

 

 

35 minutes ago, kilgore_T said:

so what am i now going to use to watch full HD netflix? firefox and chrome are not full hd

that sucks

33 minutes ago, The Benjamins said:

Can't the windows 10 Netflix app do full HD or better, and Microsoft can implement the requirements for Netflix to their version of chromium.

Chrome on Windows not being able to play full HD in Netflix is not a limitation of chrome. Chrome supports everything that Netflix requires for full HD.

 

It's the (Microsoft developed) DRM which prevents Chrome from playing it in Windows. From what I've heard (although I haven't confirmed it 100%) is that the DRM does not allow third party browsers to play it, because they are labeled as untrustworthy. That's why you can play full HD Netflix in Chrome on ChromeOS but not on Windows.

Chrome is a first party browser on ChromeOS, so therefore it can play 1080p.

Chrome is a third party browser on Windows, so therefore it is not allowed (because of the DRM) to play 1080p.

 

Since this new browser will be a first party browser it should work with 1080p.

 

12 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

I am sure that it will have Microsoft's video codec included, so yes, you'll enjoy Netflix HD

See above. Netflix not playing 1080p in Chrome is a DRM issue, not a codec issue.

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2 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Yeeess, I agree, but you said that Edge was Chrome, and you made it sound like Opera was using something else, when it isn't anymore.

Sorry, I meant the new browser was basically going to be Chrome. If they're going to force me to use a WebKit-based browser then I'll go with Opera.

 

I just hope they don't ever try to remove IE from Windows 10, I am not buying new IP cameras because Google has no faith in me.


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7 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Really? That sounds really weird. Got any examples of websites that work in Opera but not in Chrome?

They should behave the same so my guess is that there are some addons causing or fixing issues for you.

Nevermind I was wrong, now they don't work in Opera or Chrome (or Firefox either). Looks like I need to move the bookmarks over to IE if they're going to be taking Edge away from me. :(


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45 minutes ago, Tech Enthusiast said:

If you think software is bad now, you have no idea how bad it would be without telemetry stuff.

I sincerely hope you're being facetious.  Do you know how useless telemetry can be?  When Opera first switched from Presto to Blink (Chromium), they actually believed that virtually none of their customers used bookmarks, so they intentionally left them out.  They left out the ability to save bookmarks in a browser because of telemetry.  It's one of the reasons I held out so long in switching from PrOpera.

 

I'd rather developers just focus on making intelligent design choices, rather than trying for some pie-in-the-sky, telemetry-powered approach.

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I'd use it on the side at times, it worked quite well and was very fast. I get slower updates and lack of features though. I mainly use Opera and Vivaldi too. But interesting move really. 

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5 minutes ago, Jito463 said:

I sincerely hope you're being facetious.  Do you know how useless telemetry can be?  When Opera first switched from Presto to Blink (Chromium), they actually believed that virtually none of their customers used bookmarks, so they intentionally left them out.  They left out the ability to save bookmarks in a browser because of telemetry.  It's one of the reasons I held out so long in switching from PrOpera.

 

I'd rather developers just focus on making intelligent design choices, rather than trying for some pie-in-the-sky, telemetry-powered approach.

It's also a very bad thing to assume that the majority of people know what they want/need, or let the majority rule over minorities.

For example I doubt more than 1% of Windows users use static IPs. Does that mean that feature should be removed? If we blindly followed the idea that telemetry is great and we should add/remove features based on it, then it would be removed. That would be catastrophic because that 1% that do use it needs it.

 

The number of users is not an indication of how important something is.

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36 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Chrome on Windows not being able to play full HD in Netflix is not a limitation of chrome. Chrome supports everything that Netflix requires for full HD.

 

It's the (Microsoft developed) DRM which prevents Chrome from playing it in Windows. From what I've heard (although I haven't confirmed it 100%) is that the DRM does not allow third party browsers to play it, because they are labeled as untrustworthy. That's why you can play full HD Netflix in Chrome on ChromeOS but not on Windows.

Chrome is a first party browser on ChromeOS, so therefore it can play 1080p.

Chrome is a third party browser on Windows, so therefore it is not allowed (because of the DRM) to play 1080p.

 

Since this new browser will be a first party browser it should work with 1080p.

Since the new browser will be chromium, would it be easier to 'hack' Netflix into playing 1080p on Chrome?


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I actually liked Edge, has the best scrolling experience I've tried so far, also on touchscreen it is more usable.

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Posted · Original PosterOP
20 minutes ago, M.Yurizaki said:

Is it Chromium itself with Microsoft branding, or is it Blink with Microsoft's front-end similar to what Vivaldi is?

We don't know any details yet. We have to wait for Microsoft official statement for more information. Let alone, know when.

But I believe they'll do like Edge on Android (or Vivaldi), where the engine is Blink, and have its own interface (which will probably be identical to Edge now, at least for version/phase 1). In addition, they'll add their DRM and use the same video/audio codec that they use in Edge, and maybe, either now or later, implement optimization work of the engine (probably try to port what they learned from EdgeHTML engine to Chromium, if they can and if it applies). This should result in a web browser that is like Chrome, but uses Microsoft ecosystem instead of Google, and have feature set like reduce CPU usage (and as a result, reduce the impact on the battery for mobile devices)

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I'm not entirely sure how Microsoft making commits to Chromium suddenly equates to them making an entirely new web browser. For all we know, Microsoft could just be helping in the process to port Chromium to ARM so full Windows 10 on ARM can run Google Chrome, and other Chromium-based browsers, with decent performance. However, it would be interesting to see Microsoft develop their own Chromium-based browser. It would still have their own frontend but would be a better browser under the hood. It does mean Chromium becomes part of every major web browser outside of Sarafi and Firefox. I guess we just have to wait and see though.


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7 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Telemetry is in no way shape or form required for making good programs. There are countless of fantastic programs out there which do not use telemetry, or at least make it optional. How do they know which features to implement and remove? Common sense and listening to feedback.

Yeah, in theory you are correct.

In practice. Nope. Telemetry gives a way to set priorities, which every successful company HAS to do in order to stay relevant.

You can only have that much luck in hitting all the correct feature sets, but even if you do, you will need to keep it updated.

 

Thats from a coder point of view.

Now, from a consumer point of view i would hate to wait longer for good updates, just because the company can't figure out what to put on priority.

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6 hours ago, Jito463 said:

I sincerely hope you're being facetious.  Do you know how useless telemetry can be?  When Opera first switched from Presto to Blink (Chromium), they actually believed that virtually none of their customers used bookmarks, so they intentionally left them out.  They left out the ability to save bookmarks in a browser because of telemetry.

Just because some companies don't use the data correctly, does not mean it is bad for development.

Honestly i don't see a way that telemetry told them users would not use bookmarks,... that must have been some crazy badly implemented code or analysis tbh.

 

But sure, managers, analysist and all the other teams that interfere with development can screw up. No matter how great the data may be. The chance for this happening without data is tremendously bigger tho.

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On 12/4/2018 at 6:18 AM, Tech Enthusiast said:

Dear god, no!

Without telemetry software would suck big donkey balls most of the time.

We would constantly get software that does stuff we never use and not stuff we actually want to use. Most features we take for granted would not work at all.

 

If you think software is bad now, you have no idea how bad it would be without telemetry stuff.

TLDR: No telemetry will ever replace proper software engineering/testing/QA.

 

Have you been totally brainwashed by MS? you have no idea what you are talking about.

People actually believe this nonesense of telemetry= better software LOL. No such thing thats the lamest excuse everyone who collects data use.

There is something called bug reporting which shouldnt be automatic and crash log files etc.

 

Imagine if what you said was true then all the software in the world that was ever made would not work at all since most of it had no telemetry, its in the recent years this trend of data collection accelerated.

Its the duty of the software developers to properly test their software on as many machines as possible and you need a good QA team to vet features fully.

MS no longer has any QA its all on the telemtry and insiders which clearly does not work, windows is becoming more broken with each update, they have shitty developers with shitty practices and probably small QA team.

Data collection aka telemetry does not help improve software at all, if you ever programmed anything thats more than 50 lines you should know collecting data wont help by itself, you need a proper team to design /test/ QA each feature or bug fix, if they did that properly they would not need data collection, they dont even use it to improve windows its just a sham.

Writing tests for software and test scenarios is one big branch of the IT world, MS seems to have thrown that out the window, otherwise if they had proper tests and QA it would be almost impossible to miss bugs like the one that deleted all the documents or bsod.

 

Look at linux  developed entirely open source with 0 telemetry from the users both desktop or server and somehow manages to be more stable than anything else in existance.

When is the last time your android linux phone had a BSOD or deleted all your files? oh wait Linux doesnt even have a BSOD concept, ive never seen a linux kernel panic since i use anything based on linux.

How is that possible? well read above thats how its possible to get such stability, with 0 telemetry.

 

Windows is garbage software it was never good, all versions had massive issues, win7 the least but still same old terrible arhitecture, they took over the market and everyone makes software for windows mainly, if there was anything similar to android for x86(no port or emulator) windows would not exist anymore.

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43 minutes ago, williamcll said:

But I can just use regular chromium instead?

Why wouldn't you be able to...?


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2 hours ago, yian88 said:

TLDR: No telemetry will ever replace proper software engineering/testing/QA.

I was right with you, until you started going off on the Linux rant.  No software is perfect, and while MS does need to clean up their development process (firing their bug testing team was a horrendously stupid move), it's unfair to say that it's "garbage software it was never good".  You say that you've never seen a kernel panic on Linux, well I've rarely ever seen a BSOD on my systems in 25 years (with one notable exception, but that was my own obstinance in the face of a bad motherboard).  The few times it's happened, it turned out to be hardware/driver related, not Windows itself.  You claim Android doesn't crash, but my Android phone has rebooted randomly on me.  I'd call that crashing.

 

The point being, that all software has issues and you can't just say one is "garbage" while glossing over flaws in others, based solely on your own anecdotal experience.

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4 hours ago, Jito463 said:

I was right with you, until you started going off on the Linux rant.  No software is perfect, and while MS does need to clean up their development process (firing their bug testing team was a horrendously stupid move), it's unfair to say that it's "garbage software it was never good".  You say that you've never seen a kernel panic on Linux, well I've rarely ever seen a BSOD on my systems in 25 years (with one notable exception, but that was my own obstinance in the face of a bad motherboard).  The few times it's happened, it turned out to be hardware/driver related, not Windows itself.  You claim Android doesn't crash, but my Android phone has rebooted randomly on me.  I'd call that crashing.

 

The point being, that all software has issues and you can't just say one is "garbage" while glossing over flaws in others, based solely on your own anecdotal experience.

Fanboys exist for every ecosystem my friend.

 

Linux is great for many things - there's absolutely no denying that. But to say Windows has always been garbage? That is actually absurd.


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19 hours ago, Jito463 said:

I was right with you, until you started going off on the Linux rant.  No software is perfect, and while MS does need to clean up their development process (firing their bug testing team was a horrendously stupid move), it's unfair to say that it's "garbage software it was never good".  You say that you've never seen a kernel panic on Linux, well I've rarely ever seen a BSOD on my systems in 25 years (with one notable exception, but that was my own obstinance in the face of a bad motherboard).  The few times it's happened, it turned out to be hardware/driver related, not Windows itself.  You claim Android doesn't crash, but my Android phone has rebooted randomly on me.  I'd call that crashing.

 

The point being, that all software has issues and you can't just say one is "garbage" while glossing over flaws in others, based solely on your own anecdotal experience.

Personally my last BSOD i got on windows what on Vista and Windows 7 was just about to come out so i was eager to cleanup and rebuild my computer that was in 2009-2010. None in the last 8 years. Got 2 kernel crash with Ubuntu and 1 with Debian in the last 8 years. Overall i would say it's pretty pretty rare these days no matter the OS.

 

As for telemetry data i don't agree as it wont replace anything. Depends how it is used. I am NOT saying they are all well used. Overall no matter how your good architect if the client find it crap it doesn't matter. You software need to match your client expectations if you want to get paid. Clients never tell you everything. They tell you they use function X 90% of the day while function Y is nothing and then they complain it's slow and you should work on the issues to make their work better. With telemetry you can identify the user patterns and find out they actually use the function Y is used more often while X is barely used by 1 person which is the guy who told you those stats.

 

In short engineering, testing and QA are all bias while telemetry isn't.

 

Again i am talking about good usage of telemetry.

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Some Linux users will be familiar with Chromium. From my experience, it's nearly identical to Chrome (in Linux anyways). You sign in the same way and it syncs everything (extensions, bookmarks etc.) just the as Chrome.

 

What M$ will do with "their version" of Chromium, I don't know. I'll still prefer to use manually installed Chrome instead of this in Windows.  


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Posted · Original PosterOP
26 minutes ago, MEC-777 said:

What M$ will do with "their version" of Chromium, I don't know. I'll still prefer to use manually installed Chrome instead of this in Windows.  

I can guaranty you that it give you some level of privacy, while the G00gL€$ gives you none. Up to you.

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