[H}ardocp MSI GeForce RTX 2070 GAMING Z review

[Curufinwe_wins]

37 minutes ago, Tristerin said:

snip

 

Or it becomes just more shit reviews to get right out the gate first. Which is where things end up going sour. 

 

I mean look. Obviously HardOCP 'found' a card that was not allowed for sale. And 'found' a way to acquire it. Since afaik, no laws relating to NDA's and generic (without specific exemptions) commercial products allow for buyer punishment on these sorts of things, they aren't 'breaking any rules or laws'. Regardless, they are at the least 'party to and incentivising said contract law breakage'. Which is pretty grey. Things like fireworks in the US are often flouted, but are technically not illegal to sell, but are illegal to buy in many places, and in most illegal to use. Not that the law is often enforced. But still. Similar levels of grey morality imo.

 

More similarly from a legal perspective, but not meant to be construed as 'this is the same thing'... conspiracy to commit (aka being a party to) a RICO-class crime would be criminally liable.

 

https://ricoact.com/?page_id=84

 

48 minutes ago, leadeater said:

The quality of the reviews, journalism wise, amount of information etc have all gotten better over recent times. If anyone actually listened to a few of the reviewers talk about NDAs when they have that is one of the big things they have pointed to, they remove the race for first and the improves the quality.

 

Quality of reviews will go down without NDAs, either quickly or over time but they will go down. Some might not, those will get less views and will inevitably become reliant on things like Patreon which I am personally opposed to.

[Tristerin]

Just now, Curufinwe_wins said:

Or it becomes just more shit reviews to get right out the gate first. Which is where things end up going sour. 

 

I mean look. Obviously HardOCP 'found' a card that was not allowed for sale. And 'found' a way to acquire it. Since afaik, no laws relating to NDA's and generic (without specific exemptions) commercial products allow for buyer punishment on these sorts of things, they aren't 'breaking any rules or laws'. Regardless, they are at the least 'party to and incentivising said contract law breakage'. Which is pretty grey. Things like fireworks in the US are often flouted, but are technically not illegal to sell, but are illegal to buy in many places, and in most illegal to use. Not that the law is often enforced. But still. Similar levels of grey morality imo.

 

Laws across countries don't mean squat.  They are NOT breaking any rules as you note.  So problem is...

 

There was NO CONTRACT however, so not sure what you are talking about.  The only contract I am made to be apart of is with my Government when I am born.  The rest requires my Herby Hancock.

 

You are now talking about City By Laws, and Ordinances (see, not laws)

 

What you are meaning to say is:

 

You are worried people will use nefarious means to gain the most views on a review if they can get the item, and review out - first

 

So are you worried you will be forced to watch bad reviewers?  Or can you not use your own thinker, and judgment when selecting who to trust for reviews?

 

HARDOCP has never been on my watch list.  Will be now.  See how that works?  They got their first playing by ALL the rules, not just the ones NVIDIA sets for you.

[Curufinwe_wins]

6 minutes ago, Tristerin said:

snip

The company holding the card was under contract not to sell it or allow it to be sold. It's a pretty standard conspiracy to commit process. Actually... depending on if Nvidia finds out who sold it to them... they might be able to take legal action through RICO laws (defrauding their interests and conspiring to break contract law), but it seems unlikely.

 

 

What I am worried about is that supposing NDA's disappear, no one waits to do proper reviews, because first past the post is almost always the primary driver for content exposure (and content exposure, not quality is what generates money). That's literally why people bitch about normal news and their 'post first, verify later' alleged mentality.

[Tristerin]

Just now, Curufinwe_wins said:

The company holding the card was under contract not to sell it or allow it to be sold. It's a pretty standard conspiracy to commit process. Actually... depending on if Nvidia finds out who sold it to them... they might be able to take legal action through RICO laws (defrauding their interests and conspiring to break contract law), but it seems unlikely.

 

 

What I am worried about is that supposing NDA's disappear, no one waits to do proper reviews, because first past the post is almost always the primary driver for content exposure. That's literally why people bitch about normal news and their 'post first, verify later' alleged mentality.

 

Seems like a lot of what-ifs/mights/ and maybes - which segway's into is why I don't do social media or watch mainstream news.  I make a choice, and typically its educated.

 

I for one applaud HARDOCP.  If no one opens their mouth aint NOTHING done illegal.  In my hobby, "If the ref doesn't see it, its not illegal".  My morality ends where money begins so its not hard for me to not care about morals where money is involved.

 

 

[Curufinwe_wins]

2 minutes ago, Tristerin said:

 

Seems like a lot of what-ifs/mights/ and maybes - which segway's into is why I don't do social media or watch mainstream news.  I make a choice, and typically its educated.

 

I for one applaud HARDOCP.  If no one opens their mouth aint NOTHING done illegal.  In my hobby, "If the ref doesn't see it, its not illegal".  My morality ends where money begins so its not hard for me to not care about morals where money is involved.

 

 

Sigh.

 

So be it. For the record, I am a long-time viewer of HardOCP content, I find this midly annoying, and rather disappointing. I already had read it before the ltt post came up on it. It won't make me stop reading their content. It's just very reckless and shortsighted behavior. 'shrugs'

[Tristerin]

2 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

Sigh.

 

So be it. For the record, I am a long-time viewer of HardOCP content, I find this midly annoying, and rather disappointing. I already had read it before the ltt post came up on it. It won't make me stop reading their content. It's just very reckless and shortsighted behavior. 'shrugs'

I fully expected a rant my way.  Totally happy it wasn't as we just don't agree on this topic.  I do see your point, I also applaud their tactics.

 

With the way things work today, what they did was a huge risk - if your target audience decided it was unacceptable...boom goes the platform. 

 

Also, its probably a little of my Team Red showing through lol. 

[Fasterthannothing]

I have absolutely no respect for HardOCP at all anymore this is horrible to do this to other tech reviewers. First of the NDA the made such a big stink about was nothing more than a general NDA. They didn't do some heroic act by not signing it all they did was shoot themselves in the foot. Second when they realized they screwed themselves over they decide it's ok to screw everyone else over? Come on that's absolutely ridiculous. People who play by the rules shouldn't be stabbed in the back by a guy who thinks he's being some hero when really he's overreacting to a situation. Then he goes about getting what he wants using borderline illegal tactics. Once again I have no respect for people who are willing to stir up trouble and then walk over people to get to the top. 

[leadeater]

3 hours ago, Tristerin said:

Money exchanged hands.  Two parties involved in what is normally called a transaction, or can be called a sell, or sale.

That's like calling a bribe the same thing as a sale, sure money changed hands but not the same thing.

[leadeater]

2 hours ago, Tristerin said:

I fully expected a rant my way.  Totally happy it wasn't as we just don't agree on this topic.  I do see your point, I also applaud their tactics.

 

With the way things work today, what they did was a huge risk - if your target audience decided it was unacceptable...boom goes the platform. 

 

Also, its probably a little of my Team Red showing through lol. 

Big problem I see with what they are doing, that will effect us more, is that if others follow suit the bigger reviewers have a far bigger upper hand. They will be able to source products early while others can't, that will pretty much block entry in to the reviewer scene.

 

Level playing field has a lot of advantages for us too, not just the reviewers.

[Dylanc1500]

23 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Big problem I see with what they are doing, that will effect us more, is that if others follow suit the bigger reviewers have a far bigger upper hand. They will be able to source products early while others can't, that will pretty much block entry in to the reviewer scene.

 

Level playing field has a lot of advantages for us too, not just the reviewers.

This is another reason Intel, NVidia, AMD, etc. are trying to tighten the reigns on partners and who gets their hands on non public hardware.

[Misanthrope]

6 hours ago, leadeater said:

If anyone actually listened to a few of the reviewers talk about NDAs when they have that is one of the big things they have pointed to, they remove the race for first and the improves the quality.

 

Quality of reviews will go down without NDAs, either quickly or over time but they will go down. Some might not, those will get less views and will inevitably become reliant on things like Patreon which I am personally opposed to.

That wouldn't be as much of an issue as you assume without NDAs: What they do is basically create a huge spike of interest among all tech channels that are forced to coordinate on a release date. If all of the videos on a new product were to be staggered through a period of maybe 2 or 3 weeks then the youtube algorithm wouldn't be kicked into overdrive but it is because several multi million subs channels release a video on a topic simulatenously that this race to be first happens.

 

Which again it means that product manufacturers have manipulated release dates through NDAs to generate free publicity for their products: they don't need to invest on a massive marketing campaign to generate the same kind of interest as it is much cheaper to intimidate a bunch of youtubers into submission showing them a good time with press events and free samples but strongly implying who gets on the "in" list and who goes out with an NDA.

So bottom line is that by accepting this framework, by saying that youtubers "have to do it this way to stay relevant" then you are basically giving away an incredible chunk of free marketing to these companies when all it takes it to get just a few of the major channels like LTT, Austin, MKBHD, Jay, etc. To intentionally miss the embargo dates by a good chunk for this phenomenon to basically disappear overnight: the smaller channels just wouldn't have enough interested generated to completely affect the youtube algorithm and the big ones well, they are the ones who can certainly afford to miss a "big video"

 

So this problem is entirely within their control, I just don't think any of them have the prerogative to actually care about this topic and bite back against NDAs and media control because well, it's easier to do damage control and release bullshit videos and statements about how NDAs are "not a big deal"

[adadk]

6 hours ago, leadeater said:

Wasn't found for sale, wasn't on sale, wasn't purchased as a customer. It was sourced through what ever contacts they have but it certainly wasn't 'found for sale', as in zero consumers could have gotten the card.

Funny....cause there's one up for sale on Newegg right now.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA6ZP8B25814&cm_re=RTX_2070-_-14-932-089-_-Product&nm_mc=AFC-C8Junction&cm_mmc=AFC-C8Junction-KB%20Networks,%20Inc.-_-na-_-na-_-na&cm_sp=&AID=10440897&PID=3891137&SID=rewrite

[mr moose]

38 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

That wouldn't be as much of an issue as you assume without NDAs: What they do is basically create a huge spike of interest among all tech channels that are forced to coordinate on a release date. If all of the videos on a new product were to be staggered through a period of maybe 2 or 3 weeks then the youtube algorithm wouldn't be kicked into overdrive but it is because several multi million subs channels release a video on a topic simulatenously that this race to be first happens.

 

Which again it means that product manufacturers have manipulated release dates through NDAs to generate free publicity for their products: they don't need to invest on a massive marketing campaign to generate the same kind of interest as it is much cheaper to intimidate a bunch of youtubers into submission showing them a good time with press events and free samples but strongly implying who gets on the "in" list and who goes out with an NDA.

So bottom line is that by accepting this framework, by saying that youtubers "have to do it this way to stay relevant" then you are basically giving away an incredible chunk of free marketing to these companies when all it takes it to get just a few of the major channels like LTT, Austin, MKBHD, Jay, etc. To intentionally miss the embargo dates by a good chunk for this phenomenon to basically disappear overnight: the smaller channels just wouldn't have enough interested generated to completely affect the youtube algorithm and the big ones well, they are the ones who can certainly afford to miss a "big video"

 

So this problem is entirely within their control, I just don't think any of them have the prerogative to actually care about this topic and bite back against NDAs and media control because well, it's easier to do damage control and release bullshit videos and statements about how NDAs are "not a big deal"

So the bad thing is Nvidia, Intel and AMD get free marketing and the good bit is we get quality independent product reviews.

 

I think they can have their free marketing, because I don't like the marketing they pay for most of the time and to be honest,  independent reviews are more important to me than holding a beef.
 

EDIT: and might I remind everyone that Steve got hold of pre release AMD hardware and did not release any reviews until the appropriate time out of respect for both AMD and his fellow reviewers.  That is what dignity, ethical responsibility and honesty looks like from an independent journalist.

[Dylanc1500]

22 minutes ago, adadk said:

Funny....cause there's one up for sale on Newegg right now.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA6ZP8B25814&cm_re=RTX_2070-_-14-932-089-_-Product&nm_mc=AFC-C8Junction&cm_mmc=AFC-C8Junction-KB Networks, Inc.-_-na-_-na-_-na&cm_sp=&AID=10440897&PID=3891137&SID=rewrite

Nevermind issue elsewhere.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, Dylanc1500 said:

Your link isnt working.

Mine works, it says out of stock will ship in 8-18 days.

 

 

[Dylanc1500]

Just now, mr moose said:

Mine works, it says out of stock will ship in 8-18 days.

 

 

Ya, it worked after I put it in a quote box lol. I had even copy and pasted it and it was refusing to load saying it wasn't able to recieve a response from newegg. I also noticed it's from a third party seller, not newegg directly.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, Dylanc1500 said:

Ya, it worked after I put it in a quote box lol. I had even copy and pasted it and it was refusing to load saying it wasn't able to recieve a response from newegg. I also noticed it's from a third party seller, not newegg directly.

Unless there is evidence that it has been selling then this is just a 3rd party pre order through newegg.

[Dylanc1500]

4 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Unless there is evidence that it has been selling then this is just a 3rd party pre order through newegg.

That's what I was getting at, that or it's someone trying to get a jump on the other retailers (like this review, yep I went there lol). 

[adadk]

23 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Mine works, it says out of stock will ship in 8-18 days.

 

 

Odd. I see it as

In stock. Ships from United States. Most customers receive within 4-8 days.

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, adadk said:

Odd. I see it as

In stock. Ships from United States. Most customers receive within 4-8 days.

[Dylanc1500]

19 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

Oddly, there is only one single model the Gigabyte GAMING OC and it's actually available from two third-party sellers. Beach audio showing "out of stock", but the other seller doesn't.

 

Yes, it's late, I have AT&T and I live where LTE isn't available.

[leadeater]

29 minutes ago, adadk said:

Odd. I see it as

In stock. Ships from United States. Most customers receive within 4-8 days.

 

54 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Mine works, it says out of stock will ship in 8-18 days.

Shows in stock for me but it's unlikely that you'll get it any sooner than otherwise, at least you know you'll be first off the rank though. If anyone is brave enough and wants one they could always give it a shot and let us know 

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, Misanthrope said:

If all of the videos on a new product were to be staggered through a period of maybe 2 or 3 weeks then the youtube algorithm wouldn't be kicked into overdrive but it is because several multi million subs channels release a video on a topic simulatenously that this race to be first happens.

Race to first existed well before youtube reviews existed, there were a lot of low quality badly done written reviews back when those were the defacto. Only change now is the medium of the review, video, and where you get it. Won't be any different to the past, someone is always going to want to be first and many will be competing for that and we'll get mediocre content just like before.

 

Edit:

Also youtube will in fact make the issue worse, that's already a problem in general with youtube, easy fluff click bait rubbish with near zero value. At least back in the written days you had to put more effort in than just have a camera and spout nonsense after pressing record then upload to youtube. You had to actually author a written document, create the web page, have the website and domain or be part of a publishing network that has one and will let you publish.

[Dylanc1500]

9 minutes ago, leadeater said:

 

Shows in stock for me but it's unlikely that you'll get it any sooner than otherwise, at least you know you'll be first off the rank though. If anyone is brave enough and wants one they could always give it a shot and let us know 

If they do, go the Ebay route lol. Since I guess they are the only ones selling on there as well. It also just so happens to be the exact same card as well.

 

[pas008]

11 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Race to first existed well before youtube reviews existed, there were a lot of low quality badly done written reviews back when those were the defacto. Only change now is the medium of the review, video, and where you get it. Won't be any different to the past, someone is always going to want to be first and many will be competing for that and we'll get mediocre content just like before.

 

Edit:

Also youtube will in fact make the issue worse, that's already a problem in general with youtube, easy fluff click bait rubbish with near zero value. At least back in the written days you had to put more effort in than just have a camera and spout nonsense after pressing record then upload to youtube. You had to actually author a written document, create the web page, have the website and domain or be part of a publishing network that has one and will let you publish.

Its funny considering how we all ended up here

And how some reviewers/sites have upped each other's game over the years

And some having the balls to admit their errors 

 

Fyi i prefer written reviews myself 

Easier to compare with others