The current state of the desktop PC market is appalling.

[AshleyAshes]

22 minutes ago, App4that said:

Laptops cater to those who would rather trade their ability to choose individual parts, for the convenience of buying something and using it moments later.

No, it's portability.  It's CERTAINLY portability is what laptops cater to people with.  It is ONE computer that can be used in MANY places.  That's who it caters to, people who want a machine that is portable, a full PC that they can use at at their desk at work, in class, on the couch, in the coffee shop, where ever.  Any other consideration is secondary.

 

Who is it that I'm explaining that portability is the critical consideration in why laptops outsell desktops on THIS FORUM of all places???

[App4that]

6 minutes ago, AshleyAshes said:

No, it's portability.  It's CERTAINLY portability is what laptops cater to people with.  It is ONE computer that can be used in MANY places.  That's who it caters to, people who want a machine that is portable, a full PC that they can use at at their desk at work, in class, on the couch, in the coffee shop, where ever.  Any other consideration is secondary.

 

Who is it that I'm explaining that portability is the critical consideration in why laptops outsell desktops on THIS FORUM of all places???

Well, duh lol.

 

OP was talking about pricing. Why laptops offered a better value in their view based on all the things that come with a laptop versus a desktop. 

[AshleyAshes]

4 minutes ago, App4that said:

Well, duh lol.

 

OP was talking about pricing. Why laptops offered a better value in their view based on all the things that come with a laptop versus a desktop. 

That doesn't really work though.  It's a pretty apples to oranges comparison.  For a desktop PC it's entirely possible to re-use peripherals from the last desktop PC, even the monitor can be reused.  A laptop is a single unit, once you retire it, you retire ALL of it.  Also a LOT of desktop PCs are actually sold with nearly everything in the box except a monitor.  Keyboard, mouse, even speakers.

 

And then their use cases are different, again, I'm stressing portability here.

 

Desktops to laptops is, simply, a largely apples to oranges comparison.

[minervx]

it's not just pricing or just convenience in itself, but for someone who has no pc components yet at all, it'll be an uphill journey to build a pc.  only the very most passionate nerds will do it.  it depends on whether the desktop pc industry wants to become a smaller niche or a larger one.  a lot of Gen Z, including my younger brothers and sisters, haven't grown up with a desktop like I have.  for some of them, their first computer is an ipad.  pc building isn't any more of a hassle than it used to be necessarily, but with everything else becoming easier, it's just cumbersome in comparison. 

[Crunchy Dragon]

5 minutes ago, minervx said:

it's not just pricing or just convenience in itself, but for someone who has no pc components yet at all, it'll be an uphill journey to build a pc.  only the very most passionate nerds will do it.

I built my first PC when I was 13. I had practically nothing to go on, other than what I've seen in LTT videos. It wasn't a very uphill journey at all.

 

Also, check out the New Builds and Planning subforum. Not all the people building PCs are "the most passionate nerds" as you put it.

[dcgreen2k]

I'm completely fine with desktops having separate headphone/microphone jacks and optical drives. They're still pretty useful in my opinion.

[SansVarnic]

-= Thread Cleaned =-

 

OK some derailing commentary removed, so as the note at the top of the page states lets keep the conversation to a dull roar....

Lets not take this to the point of Issued Warnings and/or a Locked Topic.

[xXxAdamxXx]

I just wish gpu's and ram was cheaper, when you spend more on ram than on the cpu then something's not right.

[Crunchy Dragon]

1 minute ago, xXxAdamxXx said:

I just wish gpu's and ram was cheaper, when you spend more on ram than on the cpu then something's not right.

GPUs are more or less back to normal.

 

What CPU/RAM are you buying to have RAM cost more than your CPU?

[xXxAdamxXx]

2 minutes ago, Crunchy Dragon said:

GPUs are more or less back to normal.

 

What CPU/RAM are you buying to have RAM cost more than your CPU?

Any DDR4 with Samsung B-die costs a fortune right now.

[App4that]

2 minutes ago, xXxAdamxXx said:

Any DDR4 with Samsung B-die costs a fortune right now.

That's because of how well it works with Ryzen, Ryzen 2 having better support for more memory means people should stop looking for it soon. Thus prices should drop way down.

[vanished]

On 5/12/2018 at 8:30 PM, minervx said:

Motherboards

• Still have PS/2 ports.  This was made by IBM in the 80's and discontinued in the 90's.  Why keep them?

I agree it's a bit odd but they do have advantages - for one, it should always work no matter what - no drivers, etc. and another, there is no latency (although the latency over usb should be on the order of 1 ms so not sure how much that matters

On 5/12/2018 at 8:30 PM, minervx said:

• Have separate 3.5mm jacks for both the microphone and the headphones.  ($50 smartphones can afford a combined audio jack)

It's not about "affording" it, a combo jack is actually an inferior solution.  phones use that because a) they don't have room for more, and b) they don't need them separated. 

On 5/12/2018 at 8:30 PM, minervx said:

• Majority of them have no bluetooth or wifi integrated in (even though the lowest end laptop motherboards can afford to have them)

Just cost savings.  If you don't need it, why pay more?  Although I agree, it's amazing it isn't standard by now... surely the cost isn't that high?

On 5/12/2018 at 8:30 PM, minervx said:

Cases

• Many restrict airflow for aesthetic reasons.

yes, this so much.  It's really rather stupid and unfortunate.

On 5/12/2018 at 8:30 PM, minervx said:

Power Supply

• Are marketing 2-3x as much wattage than most people even need.

I think the main issue is so many very low quality PSUs.  If you didn't need to worry about crap quality, 200 W would be plenty for an office PC, and 550 W would cover any single card gaming load (well, except for vega lol), but it's important to remember some people run multiple cards and thus need 700 or 800+ W, and some PSUs are crap and can't reliably deliver anywhere near what they claim.

On 5/12/2018 at 8:30 PM, minervx said:

• Still have optical drives.

The quintessential prebuilt targets a specific market, and those people probably still use (or at least think they will need to use) discs.

On 5/12/2018 at 8:30 PM, minervx said:

• Most of them are still massive despite not having the thermal footprint to require even half as much space.

Certainly some are, but I've also seen some absolutely tiny builds that would put any custom SFF to shame.

On 5/12/2018 at 8:30 PM, minervx said:

• Many lack SSD's, despite the fact that upgrading them is a hassle, especially for less tech savvy people.

This is unfortunate yes, but again, the typical prebuilt buyer just looks for the most GHz, the most RAM, or VRAM, the most GB of HDD, etc. and doesn't understand anything beyond that.  If they see one PC with a 1 TB HDD and another with a 240 GB SSD, they will pick the 1 TB because it's more.  Yes, this is sad, but it, like so much wrong with the world, is just an education issue and idk how you get people to learn or care unless it's naturally their passion.

[kelvinhall05]

On 5/12/2018 at 10:30 PM, minervx said:

 

 

Motherboards

• Still have PS/2 ports.  This was made by IBM in the 80's and discontinued in the 90's.  Why keep them?
• Have separate 3.5mm jacks for both the microphone and the headphones.  ($50 smartphones can afford a combined audio jack)
• Majority of them have no bluetooth or wifi integrated in (even though the lowest end laptop motherboards can afford to have them)

Cases

• Many restrict airflow for aesthetic reasons.
• Small form factor market is extremely limited

Keyboards

• Almost no wireless mechanical keyboards exist
• Very few ultra-compact wireless keyboards exist
• Most of the mid-high end ones are focused on aesthetics and marketing to teenagers rather than quality for the dollar.

Video Cards

• AMD and NVidia assumed cryptocurrency mining would just be a fad and it wouldn't be worth significantly increasing GPU production, and now the video card market is stagnant.

Power Supply

• Are marketing 2-3x as much wattage than most people even need.
• Extremely limited SFX market even though most desktop machines don't need a big power supply.

Pre-Builts

• Still have optical drives.
• Most of them are still massive despite not having the thermal footprint to require even half as much space.
• Many lack SSD's, despite the fact that upgrading them is a hassle, especially for less tech savvy people.

It just amazes me how a budget laptop can do most of these things efficiently, yet desktop computers (even with big companies like Dell with the resources to do so) are still making horribly inefficient desktops.

Yes, true. I'd also throw in the adoption of USB-C and Thunderbolt, although this issue doesn't affect me personally.

Sometimes it's nice to have individual jacks, but I agree, a combined one would be nice.

This I STRONGLY agree with. This is part of the reason I haven't built an ITX system yet; necessities (for me anyway) are very expensive for some odd reason.

 

I'm a function over form kind of guy, so I'll take an ugly case for good airflow.

I also strongly agree with this, and like stated above, it's part of the reason I haven't build an ITX system yet.

 

I really want this to happen. My ideal setup would be to have nearly everything wireless, even if it meant a billion different USB dongles.

Well, most people prefer full-size, so I can kind of see why this is the way it is...

I'd say this is mostly brand-specific; my Cooler Master keyboard looks very clean and professional (excluding the RGB which can be disabled very easily).

 

Yes, but this is an age-old debate by now.

 

Quality over quantity, people.

 

Let's be honest, people who care about this stuff aren't buying pre-builts, lol.

[Kamjam21xx]

2 minutes ago, kelvinhall05 said:

Yes, true. I'd also throw in the adoption of USB-C and Thunderbolt, although this issue doesn't affect me personally.

Sometimes it's nice to have individual jacks, but I agree, a combined one would be nice.

This I STRONGLY agree with. This is part of the reason I haven't built an ITX system yet; necessities (for me anyway) are very expensive for some odd reason.

 

I'm a function over form kind of guy, so I'll take an ugly case for good airflow.

I also strongly agree with this, and like stated above, it's part of the reason I haven't build an ITX system yet.

 

I really want this to happen. My ideal setup would be to have nearly everything wireless, even if it meant a billion different USB dongles.

Well, most people prefer full-size, so I can kind of see why this is the way it is...

I'd say this is mostly brand-specific; my Cooler Master keyboard looks very clean and professional (excluding the RGB which can be disabled very easily).

 

Yes, but this is an age-old debate by now.

 

Quality over quantity, people.

 

Let's be honest, people who care about this stuff aren't buying pre-builts, lol.

Everything wireless?

 

 

[kelvinhall05]

1 minute ago, Kamjam21xx said:

Everything wireless?

 

 

Yes. I've almost broken my headset multiple times because wires have gotten snagged, my keyboard location is pretty much decided by where my PC is and how long the wire is, but my mouse, which is wireless, has complete freedom of movement, I've never dropped it or had it ripped off my desk because of a wire or whatnot. Wireless is the future.

[Drak3]

1 minute ago, kelvinhall05 said:

Wireless is the future

It's part of the future. It is not THE future and never will be.

 

That'd be some dystopian shit.

[Ithanul]

20 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

It's part of the future. It is not THE future and never will be.

 

That'd be some dystopian shit.

Yeah, no thank you on wireless.  There is only so much wireless can do since its utilizes radio frequencies.

 

Hope said individual don't live near a HAM operator, sometimes the emissions can interfere at times.

[Tsuki]

On 5/12/2018 at 7:30 PM, minervx said:

Motherboards

• Still have PS/2 ports.  This was made by IBM in the 80's and discontinued in the 90's.  Why keep them?
• Have separate 3.5mm jacks for both the microphone and the headphones.  ($50 smartphones can afford a combined audio jack)
• Majority of them have no bluetooth or wifi integrated in (even though the lowest end laptop motherboards can afford to have them)

 

-PS/2 requires no drivers, and will function in the bios even when your usb keyboard wont. not to mention N-Key rollover, lower latency and backwards compatibility.

-my headphones and my mic are 2 separate devices that require 2 separate ports, why would you ever combine this?

-thats actually wrong, most high end, and many low end, have both bluetooth and wifi integrated.(and laptops have to because they are designed to be mobile

Quote

Cases

• Many restrict airflow for aesthetic reasons.
• Small form factor market is extremely limited

-because its aesthetic. its designed to be pleasing to the eye and may not need insane airflow

-its really not though, like at all.

Quote

Keyboards

• Almost no wireless mechanical keyboards exist
• Very few ultra-compact wireless keyboards exist
• Most of the mid-high end ones are focused on aesthetics and marketing to teenagers rather than quality for the dollar.

-why would you want one? the latency on wireless keyboards defeats half the purpose of it being mechanical.

-you havent actually looked have you?

-yep rgb brings in the money. welcome to marketing 101. get a lower end keyboard thats better without rgb. do your research before you buy

Quote

Video Cards

• AMD and NVidia assumed cryptocurrency mining would just be a fad and it wouldn't be worth significantly increasing GPU production, and now the video card market is stagnant.

-also not remotely true. production is low because of the lack of supply for memory on a global scale. not just because they dont feel like making more.

Quote

Power Supply

• Are marketing 2-3x as much wattage than most people even need.
• Extremely limited SFX market even though most desktop machines don't need a big power supply.

-so? do your research before you buy so you dont overspend. welcome to life 101

-sfx market isnt really that limited, at all.

Quote

Pre-Builts

• Still have optical drives.
• Most of them are still massive despite not having the thermal footprint to require even half as much space.
• Many lack SSD's, despite the fact that upgrading them is a hassle, especially for less tech savvy people.

-people still use optical drives to burn cd or movies. some people still use them to watch movies. my car has a cd player and doesnt hae bluetooth, so i need a way to burn cds to listen to music in my car.  are you really that surprised that cds are still being used?

-only if you're looking at "gaming" marketed computers

-also not true. many of them actually do have ssd's, and upgrading is super easy. if you arent tech savvy enough to upgrade, then you wont even be looking at getting an ssd in the first place.

Quote

It just amazes me how a budget laptop can do most of these things efficiently, yet desktop computers (even with big companies like Dell with the resources to do so) are still making horribly inefficient desktops.

it amazes me that people are really this stupid.

[Jtalk4456]

On 5/12/2018 at 10:30 PM, minervx said:

 

 

Motherboards

• Still have PS/2 ports.  This was made by IBM in the 80's and discontinued in the 90's.  Why keep them?
• Have separate 3.5mm jacks for both the microphone and the headphones.  ($50 smartphones can afford a combined audio jack)
• Majority of them have no bluetooth or wifi integrated in (even though the lowest end laptop motherboards can afford to have them)

Cases

• Many restrict airflow for aesthetic reasons.
• Small form factor market is extremely limited

Keyboards

• Almost no wireless mechanical keyboards exist
• Very few ultra-compact wireless keyboards exist
• Most of the mid-high end ones are focused on aesthetics and marketing to teenagers rather than quality for the dollar.

Video Cards

• AMD and NVidia assumed cryptocurrency mining would just be a fad and it wouldn't be worth significantly increasing GPU production, and now the video card market is stagnant.

Power Supply

• Are marketing 2-3x as much wattage than most people even need.
• Extremely limited SFX market even though most desktop machines don't need a big power supply.

Pre-Builts

• Still have optical drives.
• Most of them are still massive despite not having the thermal footprint to require even half as much space.
• Many lack SSD's, despite the fact that upgrading them is a hassle, especially for less tech savvy people.

It just amazes me how a budget laptop can do most of these things efficiently, yet desktop computers (even with big companies like Dell with the resources to do so) are still making horribly inefficient desktops.

Mobos

I agree on PS/2 but it's not hurting anything to have it, i just don't think it's needed

Some people don't have headphones with mic onboard

Laptops have this because they are designed to be portable while desktops are designed to be plugged in at a desk

The bluetooth could be nice, but I see no reason for wifi to be standard on desktop mobos. It's a feature not a necessity

Cases

restricted airflow, not enough small cases... 

In all seriousness, the demand is low for small form factor compared to mid atx

As for airflow design, it could use some improvement in cheaper cases, but then it might not be as cheap. Most of the good ones have decent airflow design

Keyboards

Mechanical is about performance and durability, which leans towards using a cord. Preferrably a detachable one that can be replaced. I refer this point back to my view on wireless chips on mobos

i don't care about ultra compact keyboards, so no input there

I would prefer less of the tacky gamery look, very much agree there

Video Cards

I agree with what happened, but i'm not going to blame them for not seeing the future, as long as they move on from here with the right direction knowing now that it's not a fad (though some still think it's a fad)

PSU

A bit, yeah. though they are also really cheap, so i don't care. I can get a 500W power supply for under $50, I'm fine with that

Again, Small Form Factor has less demand, there's just not enough need for this for most markets. They do exist, so if you have to have one there are some available.

Prebuilts

I still use an optical drive to play blurays and burn music discs for the car, so I'm very happy they are still there. I know I'm nw the minority on that point, but it doesn't hurt the system any if you don't use it.

OK you obviously like SFX. PLENTY of smaller prebuilts exist, like this one

https://www.staples.com/HP-Slimline-270-p026-Desktop-Intel-Core-i3-1TB-HDD-8GB-RAM-Windows-10-Intel-HD-630-Graphics/product_2720260

Also if you go to SFX all the way for prebuilts they will be more expensive for the consumer. And the consumer today has enough problem spending 200 on a desktop, let alone the 300 that the cheapest ones cost, let alone spending more for SFX. And that's not including MS Office, protection plan, Printer, and other peripherals

Most people don't need SSD's, and many laptops still come with HDD's in the consumer space

[Kamjam21xx]

56 minutes ago, kelvinhall05 said:

Yes. I've almost broken my headset multiple times because wires have gotten snagged, my keyboard location is pretty much decided by where my PC is and how long the wire is, but my mouse, which is wireless, has complete freedom of movement, I've never dropped it or had it ripped off my desk because of a wire or whatnot. Wireless is the future.

Ya just like antimatter powered cars and homes.