The current state of the desktop PC market is appalling.

[Drak3]

19 minutes ago, minervx said:

What advantages?

No drivers.

No performance penalty when adding devices.

Universal BIOS, UEFI, and OS support on all hardware.

19 minutes ago, minervx said:

Just like PS/2 ports.

PS/2 was a huge success, and one can't adapt it without losing every advantage it carries.

19 minutes ago, minervx said:

does it truly make a real world difference?

Yes, it does.

Especially for people like me, who use quite a few USB devices on their main system. Keyboards like the Logitech K830, G613, Surface Ergo, all have lag spikes on my system. Corsair's K70 LUX, K95 Platinum, Razer's (garbage) BlackWidow Chroma, and even cheapo $10 Gearhead keyboards have never done this.

 

Same with mice, even the G903 hits lag spikes when you also run an Oculus, C922 webcam, Razer Siren, capture card, and a second ethernet connection. Issues compound.

9 minutes ago, minervx said:

I more suspect he's mostly dying due to poor positioning and bad ability economy, but blaming the handful of instances his keyboard killed him.  The idea that "gaming gear" will make you play better is pure consumerism.

I'm not talking about dying in game. The issues occur regardless of what I'm doing. Typing in word, ripping blurays, renaming files.

 

Prior to having half of the shit that I do, my mouse of choice for gaming was the MX Master, and its still better than most of the mice I've had in the past. But now, a lag spike means, well nothing to me. The games I play on PC don't require twitch response times.

 

4 minutes ago, minervx said:

But first of all, these shouldn't be problems in the first place

They aren't problems for anyone but you.

[Razor Blade]

PS/2 ports are fine as people still use them. In fact the keyboard I am typing on right now is an old CHERRY D-91275 with PS/2...because it is comfy to type on and I like it.

[Crunchy Dragon]

I respectfully disagree with most of your points. Gonna break those down down individually.

48 minutes ago, minervx said:

Motherboards

• Still have PS/2 ports.  This was made by IBM in the 80's and discontinued in the 90's.  Why keep them?
• Have separate 3.5mm jacks for both the microphone and the headphones.  ($50 smartphones can afford a combined audio jack)
• Majority of them have no bluetooth or wifi integrated in (even though the lowest end laptop motherboards can afford to have them)

1. PS/2 is often used if USB fails. PS/2 is a dedicated port for keyboards or mice. It's more or less guaranteed to work, which makes it handy when troubleshooting.
2. Smartphones don't have the space for separate audio jacks, most of which by now don't have space for one audio jack. Either way, I like having them as individual ports.
3. Laptops need more integrated than desktops.

51 minutes ago, minervx said:

Cases

• Many restrict airflow for aesthetic reasons.
• Small form factor market is extremely limited

1. Do research. Don't buy a case just because it looks good.
2. The SFF market isn't terribly big, so it makes sense that there aren't as many ITX cases as there are ATX.

52 minutes ago, minervx said:

Keyboards

• Almost no wireless mechanical keyboards exist
• Very few ultra-compact wireless keyboards exist
• Most of the mid-high end ones are focused on aesthetics and marketing to teenagers rather than quality for the dollar.

1. Is this really a problem? Very few people actually care about having a wireless mechanical keyboard. For gaming, wired would actually be better.
2. I have to question how big of a market exists for ultra-compact wireless keyboards.
3. Again, do research. Logitech and Corsair both make excellent keyboards.

54 minutes ago, minervx said:

Video Cards

 

• AMD and NVidia assumed cryptocurrency mining would just be a fad and it wouldn't be worth significantly increasing GPU production, and now the video card market is stagnant.

1. This is somewhat incorrect. Prices are returning to MSRP now that the cryptomining craze is dying down. I wouldn't describe the market as stagnant, there are more or less enough GPUs to go around.

56 minutes ago, minervx said:

Power Supply

 

• Are marketing 2-3x as much wattage than most people even need.
• Extremely limited SFX market even though most desktop machines don't need a big power supply.

1. Some people need a lot of power. Is this really a problem?
2. Compatibility. You can't stick an SFX unit in an ATX case. Again, significantly smaller market for small form factors.

57 minutes ago, minervx said:

Pre-Builts

 

• Still have optical drives.
• Most of them are still massive despite not having the thermal footprint to require even half as much space.
• Many lack SSD's, despite the fact that upgrading them is a hassle, especially for less tech savvy people.

1. How is having an ODD a problem? I still use mine fairly constantly.
2. I can see where you're getting at with this, but larger cases mean more expansion options(which is something I personally look at a lot).
3. The average user doesn't need an SSD, and we haven't gotten to the point yet where HDDs just won't cut it. Shipping prebuilt systems with HDDs also costs less, since SSDs cost more $/Gb.

1 hour ago, minervx said:

It just amazes me how a budget laptop can do most of these things efficiently, yet desktop computers (even with big companies like Dell with the resources to do so) are still making horribly inefficient desktops.

A budget laptop may be able to do most of these efficiently, but that's more or less because they have to. Laptop mainboards have a lot more integrated onto them than desktops for a reason. If they didn't have all their different circuits and whatnot integrated, you would lose portability. Laptops were made to be portable, this is how companies went about making them portable.

[IAnthonyFX]

53 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

PS/2 requires no drivers, isn't subject to iffy controllers, and doesn't see as much lag as USB can.

 

A huge aspect to desktops is that they support wired connectivity better. Forcing people to pay more for something that performs worse just because some people use it, across the board, is stupid.

Options for both exist at any rate, and have since at least Haswell.

 

Market isn't there to support it.

 

That's a failure on the consumer's part. Systems like mine can draw a good bit of power, and some people care about hitting roughly 50%, as that's the peak efficiency point on most PSUs.

 

Again, market isn't there.

 

That's the opposite of a problem. They're still quite useful for those not as tech literate, and for those that are quite tech literate that see benefit in optical media.

 

 

And the rest just sounds like the typical "enthusiast" complaining that most people just don't give a shit about.

aren't you contradicting yourself? you say why should I pay more for wifi if wired is good. Then I should tell you, why would I pay for a cd reader if internet is good enough?

 

[Crunchy Dragon]

20 minutes ago, minervx said:

Would they be as useful as a USB-C port?  Or another USB port?

Yes. I've had to use a PS/2 keyboard on multiple occasions because USB wouldn't work. The main reason people still keep a spare PS/2 keyboard around is in case there's some problem, and their USB peripherals don't work. PS/2 is 100% guaranteed to work, 100% of the time.

[App4that]

Just now, Crunchy Dragon said:

Yes. I've had to use a PS/2 keyboard on multiple occasions because USB wouldn't work. The main reason people still keep a spare PS/2 keyboard around is in case there's some problem, and their USB peripherals don't work. PS/2 is 100% guaranteed to work, 100% of the time.

Literally had that happen to me today messing with RAM.

[M300843499]

Just now, Crunchy Dragon said:

Yes. I've had to use a PS/2 keyboard on multiple occasions because USB wouldn't work. The main reason people still keep a spare PS/2 keyboard around is in case there's some problem, and their USB peripherals don't work. PS/2 is 100% guaranteed to work, 100% of the time.

Another reason i am keeping this X58 PC i have when i move to Coffee Lake is the PS2 combo output, i can run Win 95/98 on it which i want to do to run old DOS games ETC on as a separate OS. Cool having a mobo supporting Legacy options also

[Drak3]

Just now, IAnthonyFX said:

aren't you contradicting yourself? you say why should I pay more for wifi if wired is good. Then I should tell you, why would I pay for a cd reader if internet is good enough?

 

I'm not contradicting myself.

I also said that there's options for people that want one and not the other, and that I shouldn't be forced into buying something I won't use.

 

And to be quite honest, the prevalence of optical readers is not what OP makes it out to be. Unless you bury your head in the sand, you'll know that you have options.

[M300843499]

Just now, Drak3 said:

I'm not contradicting myself.

I also said that there's options for people that want one and not the other, and that I shouldn't be forced into buying something I won't use.

 

And to be quite honest, the prevalence of optical readers is not what OP makes it out to be. Unless you bury your head in the sand, you'll know that you have options.

My NZXT S340 has no optical bays or any bays at all, had to buy myself a USB 3.0 DVD-RW drive.

[Drak3]

Just now, M300843499 said:

My NZXT S340 has no optical bays or any bays at all, had to buy myself a USB 3.0 DVD-RW drive.

Same with my Node 202. Thankfully, the Corsair 780T has 2 bays, and my old HAF922 has like 4 or 5.

 

Well, they're actually BluRay RW drives.

[App4that]

I just wanted to trigger the OP with my optical drive.

[Crunchy Dragon]

2 minutes ago, M300843499 said:

My NZXT S340 has no optical bays or any bays at all, had to buy myself a USB 3.0 DVD-RW drive.

My laptop serves all my ODD needs, and has for a few years. When the time comes to upgrade, I'll definitely need an external ODD though.

[M300843499]

Just now, App4that said:

I just wanted to trigger the OP with my optical drive.

I find the traditional PC look very satisfying. If i were less trendy i would have an all beige one

[Crunchy Dragon]

Just now, M300843499 said:

I find the traditional PC look very satisfying. If i were less trendy i would have an all beige one

One of the reasons I like the S340, honestly. It's not incredibly flashy, but still looks nice while remaining clean.

[veli2501]

30 minutes ago, minervx said:

Do as much research as you'd like: you still won't find a desktop PC that's both affordable and not ridiculously oversized.

First result from Google search "cheap desktop pc" AUD $674, that's USD $508. Height : 293.1mm (11.54”) | Width : 92.6mm (3.65”) | Depth : 314.5mm (12.38”)
http://www.dell.com/en-au/shop/cty/pdp/spd/inspiron-3268-desktop/a210845au?oc=a210845au&VEN1=sL32iNzey,194324517314,9011547612,c&ST=&pdv=c&VEN2=,&dgc=st&dgseg=dhs&cid=238119&lid=23414&acd=10589238119234140&VEN3=110304039008517019

 

35 minutes ago, minervx said:

Yes, but what about the bluetooth adapter?  And also, adapters are at the mercy of the USB connection which is not always stable.

 

Yes, one specific part may have only costed you $10 extra, but considering the various aspects of the desktop PC that need to be taken into account, the cheapest laptops give the user everything without them even needing to waste time supplementing its weaknesses.

I have never experienced a USB port being "unstable" I have been using a USB adapter for wifi for the past 18 months and not once has it dropped out. First result I got for "cheap bluetooth usb adapter" is AUD $7.99.  That's USD $6.  And just to counter your next argument AUD $5.87 for a USB 3.0 hub.  Again, first result on Google.

40 minutes ago, minervx said:

All of this support my argument that the current desktop market is appalling.  It can change, but it requires companies to be innovative and good at marketing, which they are not.  Apple, for example, has revolutionized several industries by taking initiative and risk; industries, which, prior, people didn't even know they would support.  Changes are coming to the desktop market, but far too slowly because many are unfortunately complacent and old-fashioned.  

So buy Apple?

[IAnthonyFX]

6 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

I'm not contradicting myself.

I also said that there's options for people that want one and not the other, and that I shouldn't be forced into buying something I won't use.

 

And to be quite honest, the prevalence of optical readers is not what OP makes it out to be. Unless you bury your head in the sand, you'll know that you have options.

same thing, why just be able to connect to internet with a wire if you could have wireless as a backup. have options, right.

[Drak3]

Just now, IAnthonyFX said:

same thing, why just be able to connect to internet with a wire if you could have wireless as a backup. have options, right.

Because I'm not paying for that if I'm not going to use it.

 

If someone else wants wireless, there are options available to them. Just like I have options that forgo that.

[Crunchy Dragon]

1 minute ago, IAnthonyFX said:

same thing, why just be able to connect to internet with a wire if you could have wireless as a backup. have options, right.

I generally do this. I use wired internet when I can, but for the most part I use wireless.

 

My laptop though, has been seeing quite a bit more use on its Ethernet port since the WLAN adapter is starting to go. Something I couldn't do if I only had wireless. If I only had wired, then it defeats the purpose of even having a laptop, and you might as well just buy a desktop at that point.

[Razor Blade]

1 minute ago, IAnthonyFX said:

same thing, why just be able to connect to internet with a wire if you could have wireless as a backup. have options, right.

With a desktop if you have a wired connection there is no reason to also have a wireless connection. Laptops have both for options...there are places that do not have accessible wireless connections or places that do not have accessible wired connections. You move around with a laptop.

[Crunchy Dragon]

Just now, Razor Blade said:

With a desktop if you have a wired connection there is no reason to also have a wireless connection.

This, I have to disagree with.

 

Most of the time, my desktop is too far from my router to allow for wired connection. Which makes having wireless as an option good, otherwise I wouldn't be able to use it half the time.

[Drak3]

1 minute ago, Crunchy Dragon said:

If I only had wired, then it defeats the purpose of even having a laptop, and you might as well just buy a desktop at that point.

Well, the thread is sort of about desktops and a bunch of non-problems with said desktops.

 

1 minute ago, Crunchy Dragon said:

my desktop is too far from my router to allow for wired connection. Which makes having wireless as an option good, otherwise I wouldn't be able to use it half the time

I ran a wireless bridge prior to retrofitting my house to run completely wired on as many devices as possible.

[Crunchy Dragon]

Just now, Drak3 said:

I ran a wireless bridge prior to retrofitting my house to run completely wired on as many devices as possible.

I plan on doing that. Just haven't really gotten around to it.

[Zodiark1593]

PS/2 saved my bottom when I accidentally borked the USB drivers.

 

PS/2 doesn't require drivers, which can be a major advantage in the event something is not working correctly. Restoring Windows to the earlier point is far less pain than having to do a reinstall because USB no longer does anything.

[M300843499]

I just use a TP-Link nano adapter with a USB extender and a tiny hub glued to my desk.

 

Images of setup.

 

 

[Drak3]

Just now, M300843499 said:

I just use a TP-Link nano adapter with a USB extender and a tiny hub glued to my desk.

But according to OP you NEED to have it built into the mainboard, otherwise your system is outdated trash.

 

microkappa