Nintendo(eShop), Valve(Steam), Sony(PS4 Shop), and EA(Origin) reported in Norway for breaching European Right to Withdrawl consumer law

[ItsMitch]

Report from GameIndustry.biz : https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2018-04-27-nintendo-valve-sony-and-ea-reported-for-breaching-european-consumer-law

 

 

EU been on a roll in looking after consumers with it's upcoming GDPR bill and it seems that other companies aren't playing ball in a complaint outlined by NCC for breaching EU consumer legislation.

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Four leading digital storefronts have been reported by the Norwegian Consumer Council (NCC) for breaching European consumer legislation.

 

A survey carried out in December last year found that Nintendo failed to offer consumers the option to cancel software pre-ordered on the eShop.

 

Steam, Origin, and the PlayStation Store meanwhile were reported for not adhering to the right of withdrawal, yet failed to meet the criteria to be exempt.

 

The NCC complaint noted that Steam, Origin, and the PlayStation Store are in breach for not obtaining "express consent from the consumer and his acknowledgement that he thereby loses his right of withdrawal".

 

Right of withdrawal is an EU law which to protect consumers, allowing allowing them to refund a purchase from the moment they make it until 14 days after receiving the product.

 

The NCC had previously wrote to Nintendo asking it to change its practices but it lead to nowhere.
 

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The NCC says it previously wrote to Nintendo asking for the platform holder to change its practices and comply with the rules. This led to nowhere however, and the NCC is now filing a formal complaint against all four companies.

 

Director of digital services at the NCC, Finn Lützow-Holm Myrstad, said in a statement the breach of Norwegian and European consumer contracts "shows a lack of clarity by the four powerful gaming platforms".

 

He added that digital games "do not exist in a lawless vacuum" and that big gaming providers, as some of the largest entertainment companies in the world, still have to "observe laws and rules and honour consumer rights just like everyone else".

 

Although Steam was called out by the NCC, the distributor does actually offer a refund policy similar to the right of withdrawal which allows consumers to return a game within 14 days of purchase, providing they have less than two hours of recorded game time.

 

Spokesperson for the NCC issued the statement to GameIndustry.

 

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However, in a statement issued to GamesIndustry.biz, a spokesperson for the NCC said: "Steam (Valve) does have a compliant policy, but they have not made the correct reservations immediately before the consumer makes the purchase. The consumer must acknowledge the policy by ticking a box or something similar. An action from the consumer is required."

 

If you wish to read more, here's the complaint to the Norwegian Consumer Authority.

https://fil.forbrukerradet.no/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/2018-04-26-complaint-to-consumer-ombudsman-april-2018.pdf

 

As of the time of writing, Valve, Sony, Nintendo and EA have yet to comment on the matter. But this should be fairly interesting on how this will play out. EA have been getting a lot of stick for the BF2 scandal. Valve isn't really in the EU's goodbooks since they aren't in compliance with the GDPR. 

[AresKrieger]

Honestly I don't know how it is possible to comply with every law from every country if you sell software online, frankly I'd just not bother and put some disclaimer that we are a company from country X and are only subject to their laws, international sales are at the users discretion

[ItsMitch]

2 minutes ago, AresKrieger said:

Honestly I don't know how it is possible to comply with every law from every country if you sell online

They don't want them to (I think?_?), they just want them to follow the EU regulations on the Right to Withdrawl it's just them bringing it up to the EU and to their local orgs. 

[AresKrieger]

1 minute ago, SC2Mitch said:

They don't want them to, they just want them to follow the EU regulations on the Right to Withdrawl it's just them bringing it up to the EU and to their local orgs. 

Norway isn't a member state to my knowledge, did this change recently?

[Fred Castellum]

5 minutes ago, AresKrieger said:

Honestly I don't know how it is possible to comply with every law from every country if you sell online, frankly I'd just not bother and put some disclaimer that we are a company from country X and are only subject to their laws, international sales are at the users discretion

It starts getting more complicated if they go that route, they may be barred from selling in said country unless they fall within international sales criteria. 

 

May be subjected to more fees as well, and you know the company bottom line is always profit margin.

[ItsMitch]

Just now, AresKrieger said:

Norway isn't a member state to my knowledge, did this change recently?

That's a eh, that's a very valid point you bring up. 

[Tieox]

I feel this is a move due to problems with the anti-gambling laws being used vs lootboxes.

[Princess Luna]

3 minutes ago, Kierax said:

I feel this is a move due to problems with the anti-gambling laws being used vs lootboxes.

If God was good to us lootboxes would finally be criminalized for being under-aged gambling (if you want a game to have lootboxes then automatic Mature rating or something to counter this) so VALVe would quit gaining loads and loads and loads of money with zero effort in CS:GO skins and finally be forced to go back doing games again.

[AresKrieger]

2 minutes ago, MyInnerFred said:

It starts getting more complicated if they go that route, they may be barred from selling in said country unless they fall within international sales criteria. 

 

May be subjected to more fees as well, and you know the company bottom line is always profit margin.

Well for sanctioned sales yes, though its not as if I have to block users from country x, the country could do so but frankly that's on them not me. Either way I don't like red tape and the EU is nothing but red tape (though again Norway isn't in the EU), it might be easier to let a 3rd party seller within the country deal with that nonsense than direct sales from my perspective.

 

Either way I will follow the ideology of our forefathers and be a proponent of smuggling and tax avoidance 

[Tiuqu]

13 minutes ago, AresKrieger said:

Norway isn't a member state to my knowledge, did this change recently?

 

12 minutes ago, SC2Mitch said:

That's a eh, that's a very valid point you bring up. 

Norway–European Union relations

 

tl;dr you could say Norway is (the only) "passive" EU member

[AresKrieger]

9 minutes ago, Tiuqu said:

 

Norway–European Union relations

 

tl;dr you could say Norway is (the only) "passive" EU member

So in essence you can say that Norway despite not being called an EU state and having a referendum where the people voted against it (twice I might add) they are in essence an EU state........such democracy

[Sauron]

19 minutes ago, AresKrieger said:

Norway isn't a member state to my knowledge, did this change recently?

There are states that adhere to some EU treaties and laws while not being strictly part of the EU, I'm not sure if this is the case here.

[Master Disaster]

37 minutes ago, AresKrieger said:

Honestly I don't know how it is possible to comply with every law from every country if you sell software online, frankly I'd just not bother and put some disclaimer that we are a company from country X and are only subject to their laws, international sales are at the users discretion

That's not how it works, if you operate a store front in a country you are legally obligated to follow any and all rules that apply in that country.

 

This is going to end badly for consumers IMO, there's no way these companies are going to like the things the EU have done recently. I wouldn't be surprised to see them split their business and operate Europe/Australia and ROW branches where ROW get cheaper games with no consumer protection while Europeans get protection but at an increased cost.

[MyName13]

37 minutes ago, AresKrieger said:

Honestly I don't know how it is possible to comply with every law from every country if you sell software online, frankly I'd just not bother and put some disclaimer that we are a company from country X and are only subject to their laws, international sales are at the users discretion

So a company could have HQ at some sh!thole and tell everyone that they have to follow their laws?

 

22 minutes ago, Princess Cadence said:

If God was good to us lootboxes would finally be criminalized for being under-aged gambling (if you want a game to have lootboxes then automatic Mature rating or something to counter this) so VALVe would quit gaining loads and loads and loads of money with zero effort in CS:GO skins and finally be forced to go back doing games again.

But why are kids playing these 18+ games?Isn't that the main issue?Can you name any games with lootboxes that have no violence or any content not suitable to kids?

 

 

[MoonSpot]

42 minutes ago, AresKrieger said:

Honestly I don't know how it is possible to comply with every law from every country if you sell software online, frankly I'd just not bother and put some disclaimer that we are a company from country X and are only subject to their laws, international sales are at the users discretion

Okay, then can you see it possible to deal in and convert these countries various currencies in order to sell products?  Why are they able to roll up their sleeves when on the take, but not on the follow-through?  It's not like every country has wildly different laws or that their laws change with the wind.  There are certainly aberrations like how consoles were not allowed in china, but the spirit of laws are largely the same in developed countries.  So I don't get what's so hard, nor do I get the feeling to whiteknight over someone having to jump through the hoops as part of their job.

[Guest The Viking]

34 minutes ago, AresKrieger said:

Norway isn't a member state to my knowledge, did this change recently?

they aren't a full memberstate but they have trading... stuff. Relationships. Like really deep trading relationships. Norway has accepted not being part of the EU but following EU regulation to have access to the EU market. It's a win-win situation really, they get to keep their oil, we get to trade with them openly without barriers.

17 minutes ago, AresKrieger said:

So in essence you can say that Norway despite not being called an EU state and having a referendum where the people voted against it (twice I might add) they are in essence an EU state........such democracy

it is democracy. They voted against joining, but accepted trade treaties and are happy of their current situation. Win-win for both parties.

[Sakkura]

20 minutes ago, AresKrieger said:

So in essence you can say that Norway despite not being called an EU state and having a referendum where the people voted against it (twice I might add) they are in essence an EU state........such democracy

They voluntarily joined the EEA instead, and negotiated association with the EU.

 

About a third of EU legislation currently applies in Norway.

[AlTech]

The European Union and the European Economic Area doing awesome Pro-consumer stuff .

 

Personally I'd like Valve to extend the refund window from 2 hours to 3 hours cos sometimes I find problems in games after the 2 hour mark (but generally I'll find issues in games in the 2 hour window).

 

I totally didn't know Nintendo doesn't do refunds. That's absolutely absurd .

[AlTech]

49 minutes ago, Sauron said:

There are states that adhere to some EU treaties and laws while not being strictly part of the EU, I'm not sure if this is the case here.

Yup. The European Economic Area is the official name for countries which deal with the EU trade treaties and such without being a fully official EU member country.

[Guest The Viking]

3 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

Personally I'd like Valve to extend the refund window from 2 hours to 3 hours cos sometimes I find problems in games after the 2 hour mark (but generally I'll find issues in games in the 2 hour window).

but i see an issue with 3 hours. More scummy people will refund good games that can be finished in <3 hours, especially indie ones. I know it's a tiny minority of people, but I see that being an issue. Maybe it should be changed to an X-amount depending on the approximative length of the game? If the dev says "yes this game can be finished in <3 hours", then steam puts a windows of, don't know, 1.5 hours, while if the game lasts >40 hours, maybe put ~5 hours for refund?

[AlTech]

Just now, The Viking said:

but i see an issue with 3 hours. More scummy people will refund good games that can be finished in <3 hours, especially indie ones. I know it's a tiny minority of people, but I see that being an issue. Maybe it should be changed to an X-amount depending on the approximative length of the game? If the dev says "yes this game can be finished in <3 hours", then steam puts a windows of, don't know, 1.5 hours, while if the game lasts >40 hours, maybe put ~5 hours for refund?

Yeah, that would be cool. For example like, say you can play Up To 10 or 20% of the game before you can refund it. Just so if you have an issue then you can refund it. I would like Valve to implement something like that. Unfortunately though, for shorter games like 3 hours etc, you'd need to have a cap around 2 hours to keep it fair to the consumer.

[Guest The Viking]

7 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

Yeah, that would be cool. For example like, say you can play Up To 10 or 20% of the game before you can refund it. Just so if you have an issue then you can refund it. I would like Valve to implement something like that. Unfortunately though, for shorter games like 3 hours etc, you'd need to have a cap around 2 hours to keep it fair to the consumer.

i would say "let the dev decide how long his game is" but seeing the current state of steam...

 

yeah no

[Ryujin2003]

1 hour ago, SC2Mitch said:

They don't want them to (I think?_?), they just want them to follow the EU regulations on the Right to Withdrawl it's just them bringing it up to the EU and to their local orgs. 

So, EU wants these stores to allow consumers to return electronic products within 14 days... How many people could win single player campaigns in those 14 days and still be able to return?

 

So, I'm confused about Steam, not sure when they updated since this survey is A FREAKING YEAR OLD, and therefore not really current... But Steam seems to comply but had the 2 hour caveat to digital content. The only content I see that is shorter than 14 days is in game purchases are 48 hours as long as they haven't been consumed etc...

 

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Where Refunds Apply

The Steam refund offer, within two weeks of purchase and with less than two hours of playtime, applies to games and software applications on the Steam store. Here is an overview of how refunds work with other types of purchases.

Refunds on Downloadable Content
(Steam store content usable within another game or software application, "DLC")

DLC purchased from the Steam store is refundable within fourteen days of purchase, and if the underlying title has been played for less than two hours since the DLC was purchased, so long as the DLC has not been consumed, modified or transferred. Please note that in some cases, Steam will be unable to give refunds for some third party DLC (for example, if the DLC irreversibly levels up a game character). These exceptions will be clearly marked as nonrefundable on the Store page prior to purchase.

Refunds on In-game Purchases

Steam will offer refund for in-game purchases within any Valve-developed games within forty-eight hours of purchase, so long as the in-game item has not been consumed, modified or transferred. Third-party developers will have the option to enable refunds for in-game items on these terms. Steam will tell you at the time of purchase if the game developer has opted to offer refunds on the in-game item you are buying. Otherwise, in-game purchases in non-Valve games are not refundable through Steam.

Refunds on Pre-Purchased Titles

When you pre-purchase a title on Steam (and have paid for the title in advance), you can request a refund at any time prior to release of that title. The standard 14-day/two-hour refund period also applies, starting on the game’s release date.
Steam Wallet Refunds

 

You may request a refund for Steam Wallet funds within fourteen days of purchase if they were purchased on Steam and if you have not used any of those funds.

Steam Hardware

Within thirty (30) days after delivery, you may request a refund for Steam hardware and accessories purchased via Steam for any reason. You must ship the hardware back to us within fourteen (14) days after requesting the refund, following the instructions we provide you. Please see the Steam Hardware Order Terms for detailed guidelines on the return and cancellation process for Steam hardware and accessories.

Source

https://store.steampowered.com/steam_refunds/

[Misanthrope]

Good: fuck em all. They should all comply or gf.

[Mihle]

40 minutes ago, Ryujin2003 said:

So, EU wants these stores to allow consumers to return electronic products within 14 days... How many people could win single player campaigns in those 14 days and still be able to return?

 

So, I'm confused about Steam, not sure when they updated since this survey is A FREAKING YEAR OLD, and therefore not really current... But Steam seems to comply but had the 2 hour caveat to digital content. The only content I see that is shorter than 14 days is in game purchases are 48 hours as long as they haven't been consumed etc...

 

Source

https://store.steampowered.com/steam_refunds/

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"Steam (Valve) does have a compliant policy, but they have not made the correct reservations immediately before the consumer makes the purchase. The consumer must acknowledge the policy by ticking a box or something similar. An action from the consumer is required."

Read that