FTC Says 'Warranty Void If Removed' Stickers Are Bullshit, Warns Manufacturers They're Breaking the Law

[Misanthrope]

So the only objections to better consumer laws seem to be "But companies might have to do far more work to honor warranties now!"

 

That's honestly their problem: they've gotten away with unrepairable devices for far too long and now intentionally make devices harder to repair and diagnose even for them. The fact that they might have to change their design philosophy to address consumer rights they should have been addressed from the get go is something they have to deal with and nobody should show sympathy for them.

 

Quite simply: they've gotten away with declining warranties when they shouldn't have for far too long with those stickers, they can use those savings on dodging customer rights to make up for the money they will lose now.

 

Also as consumers it's time you all realize impossible cheap electronic devices are impossible cheap for a reason so don't be surprised if those disposable products just go away.

[TechyBen]

Meh, "Impossibly cheap" is usually much easier to repair than "massively marked up". Apple glue things together and charge extra for a reason!

[Starelementpoke]

Wonder which 6 companies are under the heat.

[Jbonn386]

When i was looking to buy my desktop it was between my Microcenter prebuilt which is the one i bought and a MSi prebuilt one.

 

The MSI had stickers on the screws to open the case up that said if opened voided warranty which means i would not have been able to clean the dust from the computer without voiding the warranty.

[Drak3]

29 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

That's honestly their problem: they've gotten away with unrepairable devices for far too long and now intentionally make devices harder to repair and diagnose even for them. The fact that they might have to change their design philosophy to address consumer rights they should have been addressed from the get go is something they have to deal with and nobody should show sympathy for them

Consumer right to repair ends with them not being legally accountable for attempting repair. Consumers have zero right to dictate devices be easily repairable or that manufacturers be held responcible for consumer stupidity.

[Misanthrope]

1 hour ago, Drak3 said:

Consumer right to repair ends with them not being legally accountable for attempting repair. Consumers have zero right to dictate devices be easily repairable or that manufacturers be held responcible for consumer stupidity.

You're mixing 2 different things here with those statements. The second part is correct: consumers have no right to "easy" repairs: my point was that it's in the best interest of companies themselves to not complicate it intentionally since increased difficulty also works against the repairs they might have to do themselves. It's a measure to discourage user modifications (not repairs) but one that is counter productive and violates might infringe on a basic comsumer right.

 

Which brings me to your first point in which I guess I should have clarified: repairing a device outright could potentially interfere with a company's ability to reasonably provide a warranty. However preventing basic maintenance or modification that just wouldn't really interfere with their ability to guarantee parts will be in working order for the agreed upon or legal length of time should be perfectly fine.

 

The issue is that this becomes a fairly significant legal grey area but as people have gone over on this thread, basic maintenance like clearing dust should be perfectly permissible. The downside is that there's a very slight risk of something difficult to prove like a static discharge damaging the product and the company having to waste resources on warranty disputes for those but again, devices like consoles and laptops should have been designed from the get go to provide easy to access dust filtering and measures to provide reasonable opportunities to clean the devices.

 

The problem is that, to go back to the example of consoles, they're extremely paranoid of somebody being able to tamper with the device. This is a practice that would void the warranty but it's still perfectly legal to tamper and reverse engineer at your heart's content with a device you purchased. So in short Sony putting those stickers to prevent people from opening the device and manage to side-load a custom firmware to run homebrew content should be legal to do if you're willing to void the warranty but this is the real reason why they don't want you to.

 

But I digress.

EDIT for clarification on kind of the wrong term on my part.

[GDRRiley]

1 hour ago, Starelementpoke said:

Wonder which 6 companies are under the heat.

sony, microsoft, are likely because it mentioned game consoles.

[Ryujin2003]

So this applies to all companies selling electronic good in the US?

[Mira Yurizaki]

8 hours ago, The Viking said:

Where I see this being a good thing is for third-party repair shops. I've been already in a situation where I had to have a power supply checked, but had the stupid sticker on. Took it to a random repair shop (which I used to visit in the past anyway so I know it's not run by some weirdos) and got the issue fixed, but I wouldn't have been able to go via official support, being in a different country than the country of purchase. Obviously, now the sticker is broken so for the manufacturer the warranty is voided, but, common.

That was the spirit behind the ruling in the 70s (whenever that was). Only it was for major appliances. It was to prevent manufacturers from going "you can only service this thing at these shops" and charge a buttload of money for them because only they were allowed to fix it under warranty.

 

The law has always been there, but companies figured they could start pushing the envelope and hope nobody would notice.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

I suspect one of the companies being put on notice is John Deere. John Deere tractors, combines, etc. uses software to ensure only "authorized" repair facilities can work on them. Farmers have been fighting this for years because of the costly, outrageous downtimes this policy has cost them, especially at critical times.

 

It's a good beginning but the FTC needs to go after far more than just those six companies. As it stands now, if a company refuses to honor a warranty just because a sticker has been removed, you have to prove in court that removing that sticker wasn't the cause of the failure, which is usually far more costly than just eating the cost of replacing it.

[Guest The Viking]

3 hours ago, M.Yurizaki said:

That was the spirit behind the ruling in the 70s (whenever that was). Only it was for major appliances. It was to prevent manufacturers from going "you can only service this thing at these shops" and charge a buttload of money for them because only they were allowed to fix it under warranty.

 

The law has always been there, but companies figured they could start pushing the envelope and hope nobody would notice.

it's also fear from the consumer. Maybe we have the right to go to a random shop to get our device fixed and still be under warranty, but at least here in Europe, if the manufacturer/shop refuses the warranty, you don't have much choice. Either go via a consumer association and the results may vary, or go to court but it'll cost you thousands and thousands of euros, for just a fix?

 

no wonder manufacturers can keep doing it.

[Mira Yurizaki]

4 minutes ago, The Viking said:

it's also fear from the consumer.

That may be part of it, but the other part is no random consumer has the resources to fight against a company in a legal battle. Even though you could easily prove that what the were doing is illegal, there's no guarantee that it'll be cheap.

[brighttail]

It is about time.  I have a car that says if I take my car to any other place for even an oil change, it voids my warranty which is bs.

 

Apple is one of the worst offenders.. There are so many videos that shows a simple repair that costs $2 in solder is $700 from apple and they enforce that sticker rule.

[BlueChinchillaEatingDorito]

The sticker is just there for manufacturers to refuse warranty claims if the consumer altered the product on their own accord. What's the problem? No one manufacturer is forcing their own repair services on consumers. It's not like the sticker runs away with the device if you dare to bring it to an independent repair shop. 

2 hours ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

 As it stands now, if a company refuses to honor a warranty just because a sticker has been removed, you have to prove in court that removing that sticker wasn't the cause of the failure, which is usually far more costly than just eating the cost of replacing it.

If it's under warranty, why bother fixing it yourself? 

[brighttail]

1 minute ago, BlueChinchillaEatingDorito said:

The sticker is just there for manufacturers to refuse warranty claims if the consumer altered the product on their own accord. What's the problem? No one manufacturer is forcing their own repair services on consumers. It's not like the sticker runs away with the device if you dare to bring it to an independent repair shop. 

If it's under warranty, why bother fixing it yourself? 

If it is a simple repair, TIME.   Sending a GPU back to get it replaced/fixed for a loose wire or such can take (in the case of MSI) 15-30 business  days.  That is a very long time to go without something like a GPU.  And if it is something I can't do but a shop in town can. I'd rather pay them $20 bux than to spend that in shipping the card back and waiting an extra month.

[BlueChinchillaEatingDorito]

1 minute ago, brighttail said:

If it is a simple repair, TIME.   Sending a GPU back to get it replaced/fixed for a loose wire or such can take (in the case of MSI) 15-30 business  days.  That is a very long time to go without something like a GPU.  And if it is something I can't do but a shop in town can. I'd rather pay them $20 bux than to spend that in shipping the card back and waiting an extra month.

Well that's the trade off. If the manufacturer no longer has control over the quality of the product at that point, they can no longer honour any repairs for faults on their part. Or else they would be handing over millions to people who think they could just solder things by themselves and end up bridging traces together. 

[brighttail]

Just now, BlueChinchillaEatingDorito said:

Well that's the trade off. If the manufacturer no longer has control over the quality of the product at that point, they can no longer honour any repairs for faults on their part. Or else they would be handing over millions to people who think they could just solder things by themselves and end up bridging traces together. 

How about the simple example of changing the thermal paste of a GPU.  That should be allowed.  That is like me changing the oil in a car, and yet you break that seal, many GPu makers won't honor their warranty.

[Drak3]

3 minutes ago, brighttail said:

How about the simple example of changing the thermal paste of a GPU.  That should be allowed.  That is like me changing the oil in a car, and yet you break that seal, many GPu makers won't honor their warranty.

Both those things are easy for some people, but not all. A single misstep can create a huge issue down the road.

Something that is the user's fault, and should be their burden to bear.

[Dylanc1500]

2 hours ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

I suspect one of the companies being put on notice is John Deere. John Deere tractors, combines, etc. uses software to ensure only "authorized" repair facilities can work on them. Farmers have been fighting this for years because of the costly, outrageous downtimes this policy has cost them, especially at critical times.

It's not just John Deere, CASE IH is following the same practices, as unfortunately this common by almost all implement manufacturers. They are all guilty of it and it has been that way for years. It's just coming to light more because it's finally starting to happen with major automotive manufacturers.

[PocketNerd]

How does this compare to laws in Canada, anyone know?

[AresKrieger]

15 hours ago, SteveGrabowski0 said:

Federal law says you can repair your own things, and manufacturers cannot force you to use their own repair services.

This does not apply in all circumstances (or at the very least it shouldn't), for instance do you want novices repairing their own defibrillators?

 

15 hours ago, SteveGrabowski0 said:

"Unless warrantors provide the parts or services for free or receive a waiver from the FTC, such statements generally are prohibited by the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act"

Also ^ that means if they don't charge you for the labor it may still be legal

[Lady Fitzgerald]

1 hour ago, BlueChinchillaEatingDorito said:

The sticker is just there for manufacturers to refuse warranty claims if the consumer altered the product on their own accord. What's the problem? No one manufacturer is forcing their own repair services on consumers. It's not like the sticker runs away with the device if you dare to bring it to an independent repair shop. 

If it's under warranty, why bother fixing it yourself? 

Repairs aren't the only reason to open up something or otherwise work on it. Some people like to modify things, such as taking apart a PSU to paint the case or some other cosmetic mod, or to cut off part of a mounting flange to make something fit, etc. I wish I had a dollar for every time I had to shake and tilt a PSU seemingly for hours (ok, it was five or ten minutes) to get out a dropped screw so I wouldn't have to void the warranty by opening it up (not to mention possibly getting zapped). Corsair really ticks me off because you can't remove ANY of the labels from one of their PSUs without voiding the warranty. This is partially because the model number and serial number appears only on one of the labels and, of course, that is the hideous monster on the side opposite the fan, the one that is so obvious if you install the PSU fan down so it can draw in cooler air from outside the case (I got around that absurdity by making a shroud to cover the entire PSU; take that, Corsair!).

[captaincheerios]

So what do you think this would mean for removing the IHS?

[brighttail]

How about general cleaning? No modifications?  I don't think Nvidia offers a cleaning service for free.  In the end I think it is and should be something people use a bit of common sense. If a person is taking apart a blower cooler to install a waterblock and in the process kills the card, then the user is at fault.  If they are taking it apart to change the thermal paste or even to put on a watercooler and something other than that goes wrong, Nvidia has to deal with it. The problem has always been for the manufacturers is how do they tell which instance is true warranty work and what part is user stupidity?  So they put the sticker on to cover ALL issues.  What this ruling is saying is it cannot be that cut and dry.  Allowances have to be made on both sides.

 

At the very least this ruling is telling these companies they need to rethink their warranty issues.  I can still see intel winning a case if someone delids their CPU, but a GPU manufacturer could not say that putting new thermal past that doesn't require deliding just the removal of 12 screws cannot be denied warranty, UNLESS Nvidia starts a service that they will do it for you, even at a fee, or will keep the warranty if you have it done at a licensed computer repair shop.  New limits are going to have to be put out there as it can't be an all or nothing.  Especially with watercooling.

[Drak3]

26 minutes ago, brighttail said:

How about general cleaning?

Disassembly of a product, such as a gfx card, is not required to clean it. If you think it is, you're doing it wrong.

27 minutes ago, brighttail said:

If they are taking it apart to change the thermal paste

If the thermal paste needs to be changed within the warranty period, the manufacturer is at fault. Because the die is exposed, it's open to take damage that would be the fault of the user. It isn't built like a tank, so it's not the manufacturer's responcibility to repair it after that point either.