When do jokes end? And where does hate speech start?

[FeralWombat]

Jokes are like childbirth, you try for a good delivery.

Bottom line: there is no silver bullet answer for this one; if you direct yourself to a large crowd, you will certainly not only fail to please everyone, you will most certainly offend someone.

Scenario 1: Louis CK on SNL joking about child abuse, you could tell there's about a 50% acceptance rate, and for this kind of joke is really good (if it were the current Louis CK, pretty sure he would have been killed in stage, or at least his career would have sunk a bit deeper)

Scenario 2: Jimmy Carr jokes about domestic abuse, comparing wife beating to keying your own car, the public freaking loved it and he continues to enjoy his fame and success.

On both scenarios very tricky and sensitive subjects are toyed with, both by 2 very known and experienced comedians, Louis was very careful with his delivery, Jimmy, as usual, not at all. The real change however was in the public. From my experience, brits tend to go easier on being "overly-political correct" (which isn't to say they aren't), when compared with US Americans

[Mutoh]

Intent

[Volbet]

On what basis do you create the dicothomy of jokes and hate speech?

As far as I can tell they can be one and the same. 

A joke is a subjective understanding of the humour of a statment or action. 

Hate speech is a legal term that defines expressions that fall outside of the free speech clauses of most countries (the US being the obvious outlier). 

 

A joke can obviously be hate speech.

For example

This was posted as a humours caricature in Der Stürmer during Hitler's reign in Germany and it would probably be labled as hate speech in most places if printed in context today. 

 

8 hours ago, Neverender said:

Hate speech is not a thing that is up for debate. An opinion would be why you like Star Trek over Star Wars. Saying you hate someone because of something beyond their control is not an opinion. Saying you want to kill someone because of their beliefs is not an opinion. It's not some perspective that makes one sound profound. It's simply, "I hate this person because I say so." Many of these opinions are carried out in actions that are deemed a determent against humanity. This is why we have the shootings and mass killings we do.

How is hating someone not an opinion, and in case it's not, then what is it?

If I think other races are inferior to me, then how is that not an opinion? It might be a profoundly stupid opinion, but it's an opinion non the less. 

 

If your only criteria is that ideas can lead to actions, then pretty much nothing is an opinion any more. 

Veganism? Can't be an opinion, since some people commit vandalism in the name of animal rights.

Politcal opinions? Can't hold those. Some people might take them too far.

Religious views? Forget about it.

Hell, by this criteria prefering Star Wars over Star Trek and vice versa is no longer an opinion.

[Monkey Dust]

3 hours ago, FeralWombat said:

Jokes are like childbirth, you try for a good delivery.

Bottom line: there is no silver bullet answer for this one; if you direct yourself to a large crowd, you will certainly not only fail to please everyone, you will most certainly offend someone.

Scenario 1: Louis CK on SNL joking about child abuse, you could tell there's about a 50% acceptance rate, and for this kind of joke is really good (if it were the current Louis CK, pretty sure he would have been killed in stage, or at least his career would have sunk a bit deeper)

Scenario 2: Jimmy Carr jokes about domestic abuse, comparing wife beating to keying your own car, the public freaking loved it and he continues to enjoy his fame and success.

On both scenarios very tricky and sensitive subjects are toyed with, both by 2 very known and experienced comedians, Louis was very careful with his delivery, Jimmy, as usual, not at all. The real change however was in the public. From my experience, brits tend to go easier on being "overly-political correct" (which isn't to say they aren't), when compared with US Americans

Delivery makes a huge difference. Jimmy Carr says some of the most appalling things, but he gets away with it, and it works, because of his cheeky non-threatening performance. An angry, aggressive, comedian delivering the same lines wouldn't appeal to such a wide audience and wouldn't get on TV. Even Frankie Boyle modulates between angry comedian, and cheeky, I know I shouldn't be saying this, comedian depending on the joke.

 

With jokes that are on the cusp of hate speech, I think it ultimately hinges on the comedian giving the impression that they don't really believe what they are joking about, to give the performance a pass. Whereas if you are watching a comedian who is making angry rape jokes and gives the impression that he genuinely hates women, or is making racist jokes and comes across as genuinely racist, that is a very different performance, and one that will be acceptable to far fewer people.   

[mr moose]

3 hours ago, Monkey Dust said:

Delivery makes a huge difference. Jimmy Carr says some of the most appalling things, but he gets away with it, and it works, because of his cheeky non-threatening performance. An angry, aggressive, comedian delivering the same lines wouldn't appeal to such a wide audience and wouldn't get on TV. Even Frankie Boyle modulates between angry comedian, and cheeky, I know I shouldn't be saying this, comedian depending on the joke.

 

With jokes that are on the cusp of hate speech, I think it ultimately hinges on the comedian giving the impression that they don't really believe what they are joking about, to give the performance a pass. Whereas if you are watching a comedian who is making angry rape jokes and gives the impression that he genuinely hates women, or is making racist jokes and comes across as genuinely racist, that is a very different performance, and one that will be acceptable to far fewer people.   

Exactly it all comes down to intent.

6 hours ago, Volbet said:

On what basis do you create the dicothomy of jokes and hate speech?

As far as I can tell they can be one and the same. 

A joke is a subjective understanding of the humour of a statment or action. 

Hate speech is a legal term that defines expressions that fall outside of the free speech clauses of most countries (the US being the obvious outlier). 

 

A joke can obviously be hate speech.

For example

 

This was posted as a humours caricature in Der Stürmer during Hitler's reign in Germany and it would probably be labled as hate speech in most places if printed in context today. 

 

How is hating someone not an opinion, and in case it's not, then what is it?

If I think other races are inferior to me, then how is that not an opinion? It might be a profoundly stupid opinion, but it's an opinion non the less. 

 

If your only criteria is that ideas can lead to actions, then pretty much nothing is an opinion any more. 

Veganism? Can't be an opinion, since some people commit vandalism in the name of animal rights.

Politcal opinions? Can't hold those. Some people might take them too far.

Religious views? Forget about it.

Hell, by this criteria prefering Star Wars over Star Trek and vice versa is no longer an opinion.

There is a deep a dark side to humanity that was present then as is present now, but that fact remains we know the difference between saying something to be hateful or to be political and saying something because the irony of the situation makes it funny.  That is where the line is generally drawn today.  You can still make jokes today about negro's and blackface and mammy, but you if you do it because you are KKK and want to prove a point then it is not comedy.

[Volbet]

16 minutes ago, mr moose said:

There is a deep a dark side to humanity that was present then as is present now, but that fact remains we know the difference between saying something to be hateful or to be political and saying something because the irony of the situation makes it funny.  That is where the line is generally drawn today.  You can still make jokes today about negro's and blackface and mammy, but you if you do it because you are KKK and want to prove a point then it is not comedy.

But would a racist (or at least racy jokes) necessarily have to prove a point? 

If a KKK member makes a joke worthy of a Thomas Rice show, then couldn't that just feed into an already existing worldview without strengthening, enhancing or forwarding that worldview?

I know I've enjoyed many a Jerry Seinfeld skit, but I've never had my dislike of airplane food furthered by any of Seinfeld's routines. 

Sometimes a joke is just a joke, however bad or in bad taste it is. 

 

I guess this also goes back to my main point: One man's joke is another man's hate speech. Who of them is the detemining factor in this?

Take Der Führer's Face, for example. 

That's a movie that's arguably a classic in satire and slapstick comedy (and won an Oscar), but it was, for obvious reasons, banned in Germany. 

So, a movie that was considered hateful and in bad taste in The Third Reich was and is considered a comedic masterpiece in the West.  

[Crunchy Dragon]

Just gonna throw this in here as a reminder to everyone:

Quote

• Ensure a friendly atmosphere to our visitors and forum members.
• Encourage the freedom of expression and exchange of information in a mature and responsible manner.
• "Don't be a dick" - Wil Wheaton.
• "Be excellent to each other" - Bill and Ted.
• Remember your audience; both present and future.

Keep this discussion civil, please.

[Drak3]

Puns.

 

Definitely puns.

 

 

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Also, @leadeater and @ARikozuM's jokes.

 

 

 

 

 

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kappa

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, Drak3 said:

Also, @leadeater and @ARikozuM's jokes.

[JR88]

Dark Humor and the schizoid man in 2018 lol

[mr moose]

4 hours ago, Volbet said:

But would a racist (or at least racy jokes) necessarily have to prove a point? 

If a KKK member makes a joke worthy of a Thomas Rice show, then couldn't that just feed into an already existing worldview without strengthening, enhancing or forwarding that worldview?

I know I've enjoyed many a Jerry Seinfeld skit, but I've never had my dislike of airplane food furthered by any of Seinfeld's routines. 

Sometimes a joke is just a joke, however bad or in bad taste it is. 

 

I guess this also goes back to my main point: One man's joke is another man's hate speech. Who of them is the detemining factor in this?

Take Der Führer's Face, for example. 

That's a movie that's arguably a classic in satire and slapstick comedy (and won an Oscar), but it was, for obvious reasons, banned in Germany. 

So, a movie that was considered hateful and in bad taste in The Third Reich was and is considered a comedic masterpiece in the West.  

Jokes don't have to prove a point, in fact it's probably better if they don't because that removes the likelihood of them being misread as hate.  Jokes can be dark or in bad taste, but we don't have to listen to them.   Joking about how bad airline food is and genuinely attributing something bad happening to its existence are very different.  

 

I dare say that movie was not considered hate speech but just in really bad taste.  I also dare say holocaust jokes in Israel are not well accepted either. 

 

This is a good:  Watch the crowd and arsenio Hall cringe when bobcat mentions david duke but come good again when they realise it's just jokes:

 

 

[Mug]

On 3/26/2018 at 12:39 AM, Matsozetex said:

Legitimate reason or outrage brigade bandwagon?

Depends where you stand on offence, trans stuff etc. 

In my opinion, he was just on the right side of it, but I do see why people can see it as going too far. Have a look for yourself though, quite a lot of his stand up stuff is thought-provoking.

[Skanky Sylveon]

I'm a bit late, but I wanted to share some of my thoughts.

While freedom of speech may protect you from most legal action, there are some exceptions.

 

Defamation, harassment and threats can get you in legal trouble.

There are probably a few more that I missed as well.

 

If your jokes involve any of that you are crossing a legal line.

But what about "offensive" jokes or dark humor?

I think it would depend on your environment, just because you can crack a few black jokes between friends doesn't mean that you should go on a forum and start publicly announcing it.  Although I have no issue with someone cracking those jokes in private between friends.

 

I guess you should ask the question.  Will this joke potentially bother a significant number of users here?

If yes, then perhaps you should refrain from making said jokes in a public place.  While freedom of speech will protect you from legal punishment, it won't protect you from other forums of punishment, including getting banned.

 

With that said, the mods are pretty lax here.  I don't think you would get in trouble unless your joke is very crass.

[Crunchy Dragon]

8 minutes ago, Cinnabar Sonar said:

I don't think you would get in trouble unless your joke is very crass.

Not just crass, but if it's offensive to any person/group of people then you will get in trouble for it. Also if it's unpleasant, abusive, or harassing in general you'd get in trouble.

[BlueChinchillaEatingDorito]

37 minutes ago, Crunchy Dragon said:

Not just crass, but if it's offensive to any person/group of people then you will get in trouble for it. Also if it's unpleasant, abusive, or harassing in general you'd get in trouble.

In a nutshell, you'll need to go over everything with a lawyer before saying anything. 

[JR1988]

It's all Fun and jokes man...but there is disabled people and Mentally ill People, I'm offended etc hahaha

[themctipers]

jokes end when you can't flip it around and say it back to the person

 

assuming that the other person didn't say that joke is funny / you can continue that variant of joke

[Bhav]

I am hereby curious if I am allowed to 'be a dick' towards myself and call myself a bunch of nasty terms.

[LoganTNZ]

Humour is subjective. And so is offence. One thing someone finds hilarious, another might find deeply offensive. And with the conviction of person z, this world is starting to look more like 1984. Dont get me wrong, being hateful isnt really something desirable, and i look down upon it. But when people start getting arrested over a joke that hasnt really hurt anyone at all, then stuff starts getting scary.