When do jokes end? And where does hate speech start?

[Matsozetex]

Preface: Going to be using pseudonyms.

 

After seeing what happened to person Z who was convicted of hate speech for making a Y joke, and for (me) being banned from site X for making jokes about topic Y. I pondered where is the line that defines hate speech to dark humor. 

 

My personal belief, which ties in with a mixture of Australian law and American amendments is that you can criticize and joke all you want about anything, but as soon as you threaten or encourage such a thing to occur it becomes hate speech. 

 

An additional question is whether the initial intention of the joke matters whether it becomes hate speech or a joke, this is in reference to person Z.

 

P.S I am not well adjusted to the intricacies of the rules here, if I can fully reference specific people/websites just let me know and I'll disclose the details of the pseudonyms.

[Arika]

2 minutes ago, Matsozetex said:

pondered where is the line that defines hate speech to dark humor

The line is where ever the country you're in put it.

 

I have some very strong opinions on what's been going on in that country recently, none of which is fit for discussion here though

[Coaxialgamer]

this thread will go well no doubt

[Matsozetex]

2 minutes ago, Coaxialgamer said:

this thread will go well no doubt

Just looking for an adult discussion, but I forgot to factor in the randomness of the internet, so yeah....HOPEFULLY, it won't be a shit storm.

[Coaxialgamer]

1 minute ago, Matsozetex said:

Just looking for an adult discussion, but I forgot to factor in the randomness of the internet, so yeah....HOPEFULLY, it won't be a shit storm.

in theory a thread like this can go down perfectly fine , but then you remember that in the real world the internet is a thing and so are derailed political threads  

[Matsozetex]

1 minute ago, Coaxialgamer said:

in theory a thread like this can go down perfectly fine , but then you remember that in the real world the internet is a thing and so are derailed political threads  

"In theory" 

[Sauron]

A joke is when someone isn't being serious for the sake of entertainment, there isn't a clear cut line of what you can say before it's no longer a joke, but if you incite violence, racism and other things you can't just hide under the "it's a joke" banner - or rather, that's for the jury and the judge to decide. Beyond a certain point it would be like Hitler announcing that "it's just a prank bro" 4 years into the war  

[Matsozetex]

5 minutes ago, Sauron said:

A joke is when someone isn't being serious for the sake of entertainment, there isn't a clear cut line of what you can say before it's no longer a joke, but if you incite violence, racism and other things you can't just hide under the "it's a joke" banner - or rather, that's for the jury and the judge to decide. Beyond a certain point it would be like Hitler announcing that "it's just a prank bro" 4 years into the war  

Understandable, in a context of jest it's easy to see a joke. Obviously inciting violence and hate would classify it as hate speech like I had mentioned (Also love that analogy ). Person Z was convicted for making a Nazi joke in a context of jest, despite the majority of the online community (YT, Facebook etc.) disagreeing with the judge's verdict, in this situation he was told "Context or intent did not matter" rather it was the effect that the speech had on others. 

[BlueChinchillaEatingDorito]

I live in Canada and I don't know what a joke is at this point in this country. I could probably get convicted for hate speech by this post alone. 

[mr moose]

For me the line comes with the intent of the speaker,  jokes are fine and good regardless of the content (you don't have to listen to them) so long as the teller is not pushing an agenda or is stepping beyond realms of comedy.    Most people can tell the difference between a stand up comedian just making jokes and when a stand up comedian starts letting their political/social opinions drive the routine.  

 

Billy Connolly has come close a few times when he gets on a rant about the catholic church.  But for the most part you can see him recgonise the difference between going on a rant and making fun of life and he changes direction.   This is why it has been remarked that he is like a big fart that carries no offensive odour.  

 

 

[The Tan Stallion]

the line comes when you start making triple meaning jokes

[Mug]

Ricky Gervais got a lot of stick for this in his latest show. I'd take a look at it yourself, he basically summarises what anyone on here would say (it's on Netflix btw).

[Matsozetex]

23 minutes ago, Mug said:

Ricky Gervais got a lot of stick for this in his latest show. I'd take a look at it yourself, he basically summarises what anyone on here would say (it's on Netflix btw).

Legitimate reason or outrage brigade bandwagon?

[Neverender]

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

For me the line comes with the intent of the speaker,  jokes are fine and good regardless of the content (you don't have to listen to them) so long as the teller is not pushing an agenda or is stepping beyond realms of comedy.    Most people can tell the difference between a stand up comedian just making jokes and when a stand up comedian starts letting their political/social opinions drive the routine.

For as long as I have known, stand up comedy has always had a sense of political agenda to it. It was more prevalent in the 80s, with people like George Carlin, Robin Williams, and Gallagher.

 

We're in a generation today where we're very critical and question people's intent on everything, and I hope this continues to an extent. Many are more outspoken than in years past and call out those who demean others at the expense of those who have no control over who they are or what they believe in.

 

It comes down to morals these days. When I was young, no one questioned a lot of this because of how our "societal standard" was. It was part of what we're used to every day. My family made fun of gay people and people of color in the past. It was just a part of growing up in that atmosphere. We learned what was "acceptable" based on majority rule (whether morally right or wrong) and anything that deviated from it was wrong and bad. Many were afraid to speak up in fear of being shunned. Today, many aren't so afraid.

 

All of this leads back to the jokes and statements that we took for granted for many years and turned a blind eye to. Now, one can't make these statements without criticism. Statements that are critical of religion, gender, sexuality, politics, etc. are being looked at with a fine tooth comb and are called out. We're doing more now to separate the negative logic from the good.

[mr moose]

33 minutes ago, Neverender said:

For as long as I have known, stand up comedy has always had a sense of political agenda to it. It was more prevalent in the 80s, with people like George Carlin, Robin Williams, and Gallagher.

 

We're in a generation today where we're very critical and question people's intent on everything, and I hope this continues to an extent. Many are more outspoken than in years past and call out those who demean others at the expense of those who have no control over who they are or what they believe in.

 

It comes down to morals these days. When I was young, no one questioned a lot of this because of how our "societal standard" was. It was part of what we're used to every day. My family made fun of gay people and people of color in the past. It was just a part of growing up in that atmosphere. We learned what was "acceptable" based on majority rule (whether morally right or wrong) and anything that deviated from it was wrong and bad. Many were afraid to speak up in fear of being shunned. Today, many aren't so afraid.

 

All of this leads back to the jokes and statements that we took for granted for many years and turned a blind eye to. Now, one can't make these statements without criticism. Statements that are critical of religion, gender, sexuality, politics, etc. are being looked at with a fine tooth comb and are called out. We're doing more now to separate the negative logic from the good.

But there is a difference between being critical, being demeaning or playing a political agenda and comedy.  You can make jokes about anything so long as that's all they are.  As I said before, that is the line between what is o.k and what isn't.     

 

It really isn't that complicated, you chose to be a comedian or a social/political commentator not both. 

[Mooshi]

I dunno, but the culture these days is full of oversensitive babies going out of their way to be offended lol

 

I'm honestly way more offended when someone is trying to be offended on my behalf

[mr moose]

10 minutes ago, Mooshi said:

I dunno, but the culture these days is full of oversensitive babies going out of their way to be offended lol

 

I'm honestly way more offended when someone is trying to be offended on my behalf

It does seem like people have forgotten that it's o.k to be offended.  Taking offense means there is something about the material that is important to you. people are permitted to have feelings regarding a comment or speech.  What we shouldn't do is tell someone they can't say stuff because it is offensive and probably more importantly we shouldn't go out of our way to be offensive just because we have the presumed right to do so.  

 

 

[handymanshandle]

Well in American law, Hate Speech is technically free speech. Slander and Libel are not free speech.

 

But in other countries, they don't have the same level of freedom of speech like we do here so that depends on the country.

 

Clarification: Slander is spoken false statements that are intended to hurt or defame ones character/personality... Libel is the written form of that.

That's what killed Gizmodo, they defamed and commited Libel against at least Hulk Hogan and whoever else was in the lawsuit.

[EPENEX]

People just need to stop being so thin skinned and see that people have different opinions and entitle them to it. If someone said something that most people consider hate speech, I personally would see it as a unique perspective since they are able to go out of the social norm to harass or entice something which gives you insight into them and humans in general. One day I hope to understand humans and why they do this, both the hate speech and repeal against hate speech.

[Neverender]

5 hours ago, mr moose said:

But there is a difference between being critical, being demeaning or playing a political agenda and comedy.  You can make jokes about anything so long as that's all they are.  As I said before, that is the line between what is o.k and what isn't.     

 

It really isn't that complicated, you chose to be a comedian or a social/political commentator not both. 

There's a difference, but it goes hand in hand anyway. Usually there's a sense of seriousness and stereotyping to these jokes. Why tell a joke if you don't think it has some sort of truth to it? It depends on your material. Comedians base 90% of their content on current events. They are always pushing an agenda. This has always been that way. That's the essence of stand up comedy.

 

Being "critical" still doesn't grant you any sort of pass from criticism right back. Being "critical" is an excuse to spread whatever opinions you have on someone or something, whether morally right or wrong. It all goes back to what is truly acceptable.

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

It does seem like people have forgotten that it's o.k to be offended.  Taking offense means there is something about the material that is important to you. people are permitted to have feelings regarding a comment or speech.  What we shouldn't do is tell someone they can't say stuff because it is offensive and probably more importantly we shouldn't go out of our way to be offensive just because we have the presumed right to do so. 

This is contradicting. You can't say it's okay to be offended, while saying we shouldn't be offensive to others. No one should ever have to be offended on purpose. That's disrespectful. If it bothers someone, the best course of action is to have a sense of decorum and respect and call it out. The point here is not that people can say what they want, but that we shouldn't just let it slide by without being called out. While "free speech" in many locations is protected under government law, it still can be a consequence by others. That is our right to do so.

 

No offense, but you have a lot to learn about communication and how it affects others in a public setting.

1 hour ago, EPENEX said:

People just need to stop being so thin skinned and see that people have different opinions and entitle them to it. If someone said something that most people consider hate speech, I personally would see it as a unique perspective since they are able to go out of the social norm to harass or entice something which gives you insight into them and humans in general. One day I hope to understand humans and why they do this, both the hate speech and repeal against hate speech.

Hate speech is not a thing that is up for debate. An opinion would be why you like Star Trek over Star Wars. Saying you hate someone because of something beyond their control is not an opinion. Saying you want to kill someone because of their beliefs is not an opinion. It's not some perspective that makes one sound profound. It's simply, "I hate this person because I say so." Many of these opinions are carried out in actions that are deemed a determent against humanity. This is why we have the shootings and mass killings we do.

 

This is not some sort of toughness contest. I will never get why people treat this as some sort of bragging rights of toughness and dominance over other people. But I guess that's the way of the world.

 

While you both reserve your right to respond, I am bowing out of this thread. I don't foresee it going anywhere, as....well...we all have our opinions on this subject matter. It'll wind up being an "agree to disagree" conversation anyway.

[mr moose]

2 hours ago, Neverender said:

There's a difference, but it goes hand in hand anyway. Usually there's a sense of seriousness and stereotyping to these jokes. Why tell a joke if you don't think it has some sort of truth to it? It depends on your material. Comedians base 90% of their content on current events. They are always pushing an agenda. This has always been that way. That's the essence of stand up comedy.

 

I strongly disagree that there is seriousness in any joke.  The very nature of a joke makes it the opposite of serious.   If someone is pushing propaganda then they are not joking, they are simply being inappropriate or indecent.  That is not o.k. 

 

Quote

Being "critical" still doesn't grant you any sort of pass from criticism right back. Being "critical" is an excuse to spread whatever opinions you have on someone or something, whether morally right or wrong. It all goes back to what is truly acceptable.

Who said anything about getting a pass from criticism?  No one gets that.

 

Quote

This is contradicting. You can't say it's okay to be offended, while saying we shouldn't be offensive to others. No one should ever have to be offended on purpose. That's disrespectful. If it bothers someone, the best course of action is to have a sense of decorum and respect and call it out. The point here is not that people can say what they want, but that we shouldn't just let it slide by without being called out. While "free speech" in many locations is protected under government law, it still can be a consequence by others. That is our right to do so.

 

Absolutely I can say it is O.K to be offended.  Being offended is a very normal part of being human.  It is the result of receiving information that opposes currently held beliefs.  It is essential to growth and development. 

 

How is anything I said contradictory?     How is what you are saying here different to what I just said?

 

3 hours ago, mr moose said:

It does seem like people have forgotten that it's o.k to be offended.  Taking offense means there is something about the material that is important to you. people are permitted to have feelings regarding a comment or speech.  What we shouldn't do is tell someone they can't say stuff because it is offensive and probably more importantly we shouldn't go out of our way to be offensive just because we have the presumed right to do so.  

 

 

If that isn't the same as what you just said then I have no idea what you are trying to say.

[Matsozetex]

11 hours ago, mr moose said:

For me the line comes with the intent of the speaker,  jokes are fine and good regardless of the content (you don't have to listen to them) so long as the teller is not pushing an agenda or is stepping beyond realms of comedy.    Most people can tell the difference between a stand up comedian just making jokes and when a stand up comedian starts letting their political/social opinions drive the routine.  

 

Billy Connolly has come close a few times when he gets on a rant about the catholic church.  But for the most part you can see him recgonise the difference between going on a rant and making fun of life and he changes direction.   This is why it has been remarked that he is like a big fart that carries no offensive odour.  

 

 

This video basically sums my idea up

[mr moose]

14 minutes ago, Matsozetex said:

This video basically sums my idea up

That's pretty on point.  He raises some very good arguments.

[Eduard the weeb]

when it isn't funny anymore, or when it is making someone else feel like shit, like if you make a mildly offensive joke but it all laughter and no one would be offended by it maybe, but if like the joke excludes people, hurts people, or makes them feel different in a bad way then its hate speech then imo.

[Unhelpful]

When fewer people find it funny than unfunny and people look at you strangely. Remember to keep your audience in mind.