Sony: We removed the headphone jack due to the XZ2's design

[dalekphalm]

3 minutes ago, BadluckBrian said:

Adapters to make wired headsets wireless are rather cheap, to me it's humorous to see how much some are against a port being taken away. Get a good pair of wireless headsets and just leave your phone somewhere in the room or house. You don't have to worry about a port wearing out, and look if the battery is wearing out on a GOOD headset then it's time for a new one. Complaining that the headset batteries wear out is like saying you won't get a smartphone because the battery will wear out some time. 

Here's the thing: Because of the changing technologies, and improvements in screen size/resolution/colour, processor, etc, a phone becomes "obsolete" within 3-4 years.

 

A good pair of wired headphones can literally last you the rest of your life - not joking. A good pair of wired headphones can last 30+ years easily. Bonus points since most high end headphones have replaceable cables, which are cheap buy, which is likely the only thing that will wear out (and usually only due to negligence or accidental damage).

 

Also, as noted multiple times now - especially in the high end, wireless will actually limit the potential quality of the drivers themselves at a certain point.

 

Not to mention many smartphones include the ability to user replace the battery.

[Enderman]

3 minutes ago, BadluckBrian said:

Adapters to make wired headsets wireless are rather cheap, to me it's humorous to see how much some are against a port being taken away. Get a good pair of wireless headsets and just leave your phone somewhere in the room or house. You don't have to worry about a port wearing out, and look if the battery is wearing out on a GOOD headset then it's time for a new one. Complaining that the headset batteries wear out is like saying you won't get a smartphone because the battery will wear out some time. 

This is just the typical internet, against any kind of progress and change.

A few years from now they will stop complaining  vocal minority, as usual.

It's funny how when you actually talk to the people with a phone that doesn't have a headphone jack, most of them say they don't care, or don't notice it's gone at all.

 

4 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Phone OEM's like Apple are artificially trying to kill it

Great! This is how progress is made.

Instead of having to wait 20 years with a extra port on my phone I never use, powerful companies are accelerating technological progression towards the future.

 

There will always be complainers that resist change, especially older people.

Thanks to large companies we don't need to be held back by people who are afraid of rapid progress.

[Enderman]

10 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

By that logic, the USB-C port is also unnecessary.

 

With Wireless Charging, and the ability to sync over WIFI, the ability to plug a phone directly into a computer (or a wall outlet) is unnecessary.

 

That's a fact.

Technically this is correct, I'm sure in the next <5 years there will be no port at all.

Currently it is a bit complicated because there needs to be a physical connection in order to load an OS onto the device, and if that was hidden inside resetting the phone would not be possible without disassembly.

 

Also carrying a charging cable around is much easier than carrying a huge wireless charging pad.

There are companies currently working on wireless charging technology, so that it may be possible to have something as small as a typical phone power brick that would wirelessly charge the device, so that it does not need to be a large pad.

Hopefully soon enough this will be possible and there won't need to be a USB port either.

 

Only other problem is if there is no wireless access point, but that is very rare these days so it wouldn't be a concern for people who are buying high end mobile devices.

[dalekphalm]

4 minutes ago, Enderman said:

This is just the typical internet, against any kind of progress and change.

A few years from now they will stop complaining  vocal minority, as usual.

It's funny how when you actually talk to the people with a phone that doesn't have a headphone jack, most of them say they don't care, or don't notice it's gone at all.

 

Great! This is how progress is made.

Instead of having to wait 20 years with a extra port on my phone I never use, powerful companies are accelerating technological progression towards the future.

 

There will always be complainers that resist change, especially older people.

Thanks to large companies we don't need to be held back by people who are afraid of rapid progress.

No. That's not how progress is made. Apple has yet to introduce a suitable replacement.

 

Wireless is not a suitable replacement, due to the obvious drawbacks (Unless USB, which could do everything Parallel could do, but faster and smaller).

 

Lightning Headphones are not a suitable replacement, because of all the other non-Apple products people will use their headphones for (Computer, home stereo, etc). Also, only Apple devices use Lightning, and they're never going to license it out to Android devices. So if I own a pair of high end headphones, and I have an iPhone 8, and my fiancee has a Pixel 2, we can't share those headphones without an adapter of some kind.

 

That's not progress my friend. Dongles and adapters are not progress.

 

If Wireless headphones can eliminate all of the downsides? Sure, maybe. But that's a big maybe. And we're talking 10-20 years from now.

[Dabombinable]

5 minutes ago, Enderman said:

This is just the typical internet, against any kind of progress and change.

A few years from now they will stop complaining  vocal minority, as usual.

It's funny how when you actually talk to the people with a phone that doesn't have a headphone jack, most of them say they don't care, or don't notice it's gone at all.

 

Great! This is how progress is made.

Instead of having to wait 20 years with a extra port on my phone I never use, powerful companies are accelerating technological progression towards the future.

 

There will always be complainers that resist change, especially older people.

Thanks to large companies we don't need to be held back by people who are afraid of rapid progress.

Change for the sake of cahnge, is just shit. Change for a complete improvement however isn't. And with anything wireless, its never going to be a complete improvement.

You have to remove or solve problems with; interference, power inefficiencies, hard to replace (if its even possible) batteries, latency, cost in comparison to wired.

[Drak3]

18 minutes ago, BadluckBrian said:

Adapters to make wired headsets wireless are rather cheap, to me it's humorous to see how much some are against a port being taken away. Get a good pair of wireless headsets and just leave your phone somewhere in the room or house. You don't have to worry about a port wearing out, and look if the battery is wearing out on a GOOD headset then it's time for a new one. Complaining that the headset batteries wear out is like saying you won't get a smartphone because the battery will wear out some time. 

It's being replaced by inferior solutions. That's the big aspect to all of it.

[Enderman]

2 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

No. That's not how progress is made. Apple has yet to introduce a suitable replacement.

.........

Progress is moving everything towards a single digital standard.

The fact that apple uses lighting and refuses to switch to USB C is a completely different debate.

The point is that 3.5mm only serves one purpose and is unnecessary.

 

Dongles and adapters allow legacy devices to be used on newer technology.

Once you fully switch to USB-C there will be 0 dongles or adapters because everything can use the same cable.

This is a transition phase. The longer you draw it out, the worse it will be for you.

 

Your opinion is not going to make a multi-billion dollar company change their engineering design decisions, so complaining is just a waste of time and effort you could be spending researching the new technologies instead and thinking about how you can start switching over with the least trouble.

[DrMacintosh]

26 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Yeahhh. Except that Wireless doesn't make the 3.5mm obsolete. The 3.5mm can provide objectively better sounding audio, when paired with a high quality pair of headphones. A comparably priced pair of wireless headphones will not sound as good.

If you were listing to audio on a smartphone with headphones that cost more than $50 there might be a problem with you. If you really cared about audio you would not be using a dinky DAC and AMP inside a smartphone. Hell iPhones have 16-Bit DACs!

 

26 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

You're also increasing the cost of the headphones themselves by adding in:

1. Additional equipment (Wireless receiver), and

2. Redundant equipment (a DAC - since the phone already has one...)

Yeah, who would have thought? 

 

26 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

But removing the jack (both here, and with the iPhone 7/8/X) was a decision, not a requirement. They could easily have designed the phone to do everything it can do now, and have a 3.5mm jack. It would have, at best, been 1-2mm larger in one dimension. So small that side by side, most people wouldn't even notice which one was bigger.

Wow, you should really write a letter to Johnny Ive, Dan Riccio, and Phil Schiller and tell them that. They might offer you a position on the iPhone hardware team! 

[Enderman]

3 minutes ago, Dabombinable said:

Change for the sake of cahnge, is just shit. Change for a complete improvement however isn't. And with anything wireless, its never going to be a complete improvement.

You have to remove or solve problems with; interference, power inefficiencies, hard to replace (if its even possible) batteries, latency, cost in comparison to wired.

You don't think being able to use a single cable and port for everything is a good thing?

I have 50 different types of cables lying around, worth hundreds of dollars, just because there are so many different types of connections.

 

Cables also get interference.

Cables also have power loss and inefficiency.

Both of these things are mostly fixed thanks to engineering.

In time wireless will also be almost as good, if not the same or better.

Batteries are already not replaceable in most phones regardless of wired/wireless.

[Drak3]

11 minutes ago, Enderman said:

point is that 3.5mm only serves one purpose and is unnecessary

That's where you're wrong. TRRS versions of the 3.5mm jack can serve many purposes, should the audio chipset allow for it (most phones and tablets do).

With some tweaks, 3.5mm can be the device end of a USB connection.

[Enderman]

1 minute ago, Drak3 said:

That's where you're wrong. TRRS versions of the 3.5mm jack can serve many purposes, should the audio chipset allow for it (most phones and tablets do).

With some tweaks, 3.5mm can be the device end of a USB connection.

Oh lol sure I totally want to use a 3.5mm jack for USB 

Doesn't even have enough pins for more than USB 2.0 either.

I'm sure the amount of people that use that jack for anything other than headphones is less than 3.

[Dabombinable]

17 minutes ago, Enderman said:

You don't think being able to use a single cable and port for everything is a good thing?

I have 50 different types of cables lying around, worth hundreds of dollars, just because there are so many different types of connections.

 

Cables also get interference.

Cables also have power loss and inefficiency.

Both of these things are mostly fixed thanks to engineering.

In time wireless will also be almost as good, if not the same or better.

Batteries are already not replaceable in most phones regardless of wired/wireless.

Wireless solutions still have far more issues than cables-and are worse were the issues are the same.   As for having 1 cable that does it all, yes that is good.   But not if there is only 1 port on a device to plug every accessory or the charger into and if there are still other drawbacks.  And with the way ports are at the moment, you are trading a lot of cables for a lot of adapters-which are easier by far to lose and far more expensive to purchase and easier to damage in the first place. 

 

And batteries being replaceable is another thing that has been senselessly omitted from products.  Removing a feature provides no benefit to the user at all, just like removing the option to use a headphone jack over inferior wireless or less convenient external DAC.

4 minutes ago, Enderman said:

Oh lol sure I totally want to use a 3.5mm jack for USB 

Doesn't even have enough pins for more than USB 2.0 either.

I'm sure the amount of people that use that jack for anything other than headphones is less than 3.

There are 4 and 5 conductor versions of the 3.5mm jack....
(TRRS and TRRRS).
Meaning that a headset with a single connector can be used-even with some laptops.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phone_connector_(audio)#TRRRS_standards

[crystal6tak]

6 minutes ago, Enderman said:

Progress is moving everything towards a single digital standard.

The fact that apple uses lighting and refuses to switch to USB C is a completely different debate.

The point is that 3.5mm only serves one purpose and is unnecessary.

 

Dongles and adapters allow legacy devices to be used on newer technology.

Once you fully switch to USB-C there will be 0 dongles or adapters because everything can use the same cable.

This is a transition phase. The longer you draw it out, the worse it will be for you.

 

Your opinion is not going to make a multi-billion dollar company change their engineering design decisions, so complaining is just a waste of time and effort you could be spending researching the new technologies instead and thinking about how you can start switching over with the least trouble.

If by future you mean all headphones switching to USB-C with no noticeable loss in sound quality (or even improved sound quality) to the aux jack, and that phones will have two USB-C ports. Then I'm all for it.

 

But no, right now its an incoherent mess with android and apple using different adapters with different compatibilities. While wireless suffer similarly with Apple using AAC codec and android uses aptX codec.

 

This isn't like the parallel port to USB like what dalekphalm said. USB did everything parallel port did and more. Right now nothing can do everything the aux jack can do and more. Potentially the USB-C could. But right now the market mentality is ripping the aux jack off completely while not providing any replacement solution.

[Drak3]

1 minute ago, Enderman said:

Oh lol sure I totally want to use a 3.5mm jack for USB 

Doesn't even have enough pins for more than USB 2.0 either.

I'm sure the amount of people that use that jack for anything other than headphones is less than 3.

Dutch Bros uses iPads with Square readers, which are TRRS.

So does Boise Fry Company.

And many newer souvenir shops.

And many newer small companies are also uses them, because they're cheaper than PoS systems.

Same for farmer markets that accept credit/debit cards.

Anyone with an iPod Nano, 3.5mm is the USB connection.

And anyone with an older selfie stick or older remote shutter button.

 

There are also 3D scanners, thermometers, light meters, and charms. None of those would exist if there wasn't a market for them.

[Blademaster91]

32 minutes ago, Enderman said:

Progress is moving everything towards a single digital standard.

The fact that apple uses lighting and refuses to switch to USB C is a completely different debate.

The point is that 3.5mm only serves one purpose and is unnecessary.

Dongles and adapters allow legacy devices to be used on newer technology.

Once you fully switch to USB-C there will be 0 dongles or adapters because everything can use the same cable.

Your opinion is not going to make a multi-billion dollar company change their engineering design decisions, so complaining is just a waste of time and effort you could be spending researching the new technologies instead and thinking about how you can start switching over with the least trouble.

I agree with dalekphalm, dongles and adapters while getting rid of a useful standard audio port that hasn't had the need to go away until Apple convinced you that it's "obsolete" isn't progress at all, that is just Apple selling form over function. Android phone makers copy the worst aspects of these iPhones to have the excuse of having a more aesthetically pleasing phone,and attracting the crowd that upgrades with every new phone.

I'll take my opinion and just buy a phone that has more features for less, instead of giving into the billion dollar companies that want to sell everyone expensive adapters and wireless headphones.

[Enderman]

4 minutes ago, crystal6tak said:

If by future you mean all headphones switching to USB-C with no noticeable loss in sound quality (or even improved sound quality) to the aux jack, and that phones will have two USB-C ports. Then I'm all for it.

 

But no, right now its an incoherent mess with android and apple using different adapters with different compatibilities. While wireless suffer similarly with Apple using AAC codec and android uses aptX codec.

 

This isn't like the parallel port to USB like what dalekphalm said. USB did everything parallel port did and more. Right now nothing can do everything the aux jack can do and more. Potentially the USB-C could. But right now the market mentality is ripping the aux jack off completely while not providing any replacement solution.

10 minutes ago, Dabombinable said:

Wireless solutions still have far more issues than cables-and are worse were the issues are the same.   As for having 1 cable that does it all, yes that is good.   But not if there is only 1 port on a device to plug every accessory or the charger into and if there are still other drawbacks.  And with the way ports are at the moment, you are trading a lot of cables for a lot of adapters-which are easier by far to lose and far more expensive to purchase and easier to damage in the first place. 

 

And batteries being replaceable is another thing that has been senselessly omitted from products.  Removing a feature provides no benefit to the user at all, just like removing the option to use a headphone jack over inferior wireless or less convenient external DAC.

There are 4 and 5 conductor versions of the 3.5mm jack....
(TRRS and TRRRS).
Meaning that a headset with a single connector can be used-even with some laptops.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phone_connector_(audio)#TRRRS_standards

I don't use apple products so there is literally no problem for me and most other people who use android.

Do you have two phones or something? Why do you care?

 

USB is a digital connection, aux is analogue and very limited.

This means USB can transfer any kind of data, including video, audio, files, and also power.

Aux can only do audio and whatever else is built into the circuitry that connects to the jack.

If you think the future is simply adding more pins to a 3.5mm jack to try to make it do what USB already does, then I feel sorry for you

 

Wireless will get better eventually.

For now the DAC built into USB C headphones is just as good if not better than the average phone, since phones have been squishing the size of their audio circuitry down for the past few years in order to fit more important stuff.

[Daegun]

23 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

If you were listing to audio on a smartphone with headphones that cost more than $50 there might be a problem with you.

This seems to be at odds with your recommendations of Apple's Airpods.

[Enderman]

5 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

I agree with daelekphalm, dongles and adapters while getting rid of a useful standard audio port that hasn't had the need to go away until Apple convinced you that it's "obsolete" isn't progress at all, that is just Apple selling form over function. Android phone makers copy the worst aspects of these iPhones to have the excuse of having a more aesthetically pleasing phone,and attracting the crowd that upgrades with every new phone.

I'll take my opinion and just buy a phone that has more features for less, instead of giving into the billion dollar companies that want to sell everyone expensive adapters and wireless headphones.

It's not obsolete, it's just unnecessary on a super compact device that already has a USB port on it.

Apple wasn't the first to remove the headphone jack either, but of course you probably never noticed if all you are aware about is apple products.

Go ahead and buy a phone with a headphone jack then, they still exist.

I don't even understand why you have to argue about this when you still have the option to buy what you want.

Go buy a PS2 mouse and keyboard while you're at it if you like.

[DrMacintosh]

Just now, Daegun said:

This seems to be at odds with your recommendations of Apple's Airpods.

AirPods are not Hi-Fi headphones. 

[Drak3]

3 minutes ago, Enderman said:

This means USB can transfer any kind of data, including video, audio, files, and also power.

Aux can only do audio and whatever else is built into the circuitry that connects to the jack.

Audio is analogue.

3.5mm is not inherently analogue or digital, but it can do both.

Whereas USB either does analogue or requires an additional DAC, one makes the solution expensive and the other defeats the purpose.

5 minutes ago, Enderman said:

Wireless will get better eventually.

No, it won't. The pervasiveness of current wireless communication is what will forever keep wireless communication inferior to wired. And without that interference, it boils down to the effective range of the standard, but data integrity always degrades with range.

7 minutes ago, Enderman said:

For now the DAC built into USB C headphones is just as good if not better than the average phone,

Except that wastes power on a second, unnecessary DAC.

 

8 minutes ago, Enderman said:

you think the future is simply adding more pins to a 3.5mm jack to try to make it do what USB already does, then I feel sorry for you

No, the future is not investing on inferior solutions with the idiotic hope that things improve.

[Dabombinable]

Just now, Enderman said:

I don't use apple products so there is literally no problem for me and most other people who use android.

Do you have two phones or something? Why do you care?

 

USB is a digital connection, aux is analogue and very limited.

This means USB can transfer any kind of data, including video, audio, files, and also power.

Aux can only do audio and whatever else is built into the circuitry that connects to the jack.

If you think the future is simply adding more pins to a 3.5mm jack to try to make it do what USB already does, then I feel sorry for you

 

Wireless will get better eventually.

For now the DAC built into USB C headphones is just as good if not better than the average phone, since phones have been squishing the size of their audio circuitry down for the past few years in order to fit more important stuff.

Our ears are analogue. Headphones are analogue and the best headphones use the 3.5mm or larger jacks without any degradation of the DAC's output quality (note. Digital to Analogue Converter). Audio is not transferred over the USB connector with the majority of USB C connectors due to the shitshow that its become, only the digital single which needs to be converted to analogue.   As it stands there is no successor to the 3.5mm jack.   They are required anyway on the DAC which plugs into the USB C or lighting port on the handful of phones which don't have a 3.5mm jack built in.

And you can already get audio jacks with 4-5 conductors, in fact they've been available for years so if the future to you was several years ago, you must be tripping.

 

There is nothing that can presently even come close to replacing the audio jack.

USB C is ruled out due to it having become a complete shitshow and the lack of compatibility with the majority of devices and equipment.

Wireless is ruled out as it is still has decades of development to go before its significant drawbacks are solved (and even then-you can't ignore physics).

[Beef Boss]

50 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Here's the thing: Because of the changing technologies, and improvements in screen size/resolution/colour, processor, etc, a phone becomes "obsolete" within 3-4 years.

 

A good pair of wired headphones can literally last you the rest of your life - not joking. A good pair of wired headphones can last 30+ years easily. Bonus points since most high end headphones have replaceable cables, which are cheap buy, which is likely the only thing that will wear out (and usually only due to negligence or accidental damage).

 

Also, as noted multiple times now - especially in the high end, wireless will actually limit the potential quality of the drivers themselves at a certain point.

 

Not to mention many smartphones include the ability to user replace the battery.

Yes, they CAN last that long, but most, Most, would get newer better headphones way way before that. And in 30 years, heck even 5 years I'm willing to bet that there will be a headphone jack on a very small percentage of phones. All my phones have headphone Jack's, but I never use them now because of wireless headsets. 

[Daegun]

2 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

AirPods are not Hi-Fi headphones. 

This doesn't clear the contradiction. They're headphones priced at much more than your $50 mark (3 times that). The person you replied to wasn't talking about hi-fi headphones either, he talks about how comparably priced wireless headphones have worse quality than wired headphones.

[Drak3]

1 minute ago, BadluckBrian said:

Yes, they CAN last that long, but most, Most, would get newer better headphones way way before that. And in 30 years, heck even 5 years I'm willing to bet that there will be a headphone jack on a very small percentage of phones. All my phones have headphone Jack's, but I never use them now because of wireless headsets. 

Congrats on being happy with an inferior standard.

We're not.

[Dabombinable]

2 minutes ago, BadluckBrian said:

Yes, they CAN last that long, but most, Most, would get newer better headphones way way before that. And in 30 years, heck even 5 years I'm willing to bet that there will be a headphone jack on a very small percentage of phones. All my phones have headphone Jack's, but I never use them now because of wireless headsets. 

You must live/work (look for work in my case) far from a large population then. Interference is a bitch to deal with, and so is the lifespan batteries.

1 minute ago, Daegun said:

This doesn't clear the contradiction. They're headphones priced at much more than your $50 mark (3 times that). The person you replied to wasn't talking about hi-fi headphones either, he talks about how comparably priced wireless headphones have worse quality than wired headphones.

Less than $50 AUD and I've got noise cancelling headphones that utterly destroy earpods (my iPod nano 7 kind of sounds like shit now if I use the original earpods) and indeed my 2 year old $75 AUD Sony headphones (newer+cheaper headphones are more comfortable due to far more padding, sound far better, have removable+washable ear covers, have better build quality and a removable cable).