AMD accuses BAPCo and Intel of cheating with Sysmark benchmarks

[zMeul]

again, who says they aren't right?

common sense

right in what way exactly? if you watched the video, AMD doesn't directly implicate Intel, they don't even claim their CPUs are better than Intel's

they accuse BAPCo for the payload in their benchmark for showing way too much difference compared to their own tests (ha!) and PCMark benchmark

I haven't used Sysmark and since it's aimed at a enterprise audience I suspect it benchmarks a whole lot of more instances that PCMark; PCMark that's aimed at a broader audience, a "consumer grade" benchmark

enterprise consumers don't spend their time on YouTube, so where exactly is AMD aiming this? at their fanboys

they're pre-heating the pot for Zen's launch

recently, AMD discussed an alternative to NVLink .. who the fuck cares?! not the sector this is aimed at

nVidia already has customers for NVLink, they partnered with IBM to provide a complete solution; AMD just talks

it reminds me of this:

[HKZeroFive]

AMD has't been an alternative since god knows when

and BAPCo's Sysmark is not a consumer grade benchmark, it aimed at enterprise clients - market sector where AMD lost big time

 

how can AMD still claim to be taken seriously when they show systems with Intel CPUs, remember that Project Quantum at E3 last year? it used a Intel platform: https://www.techpowerup.com/213682/amd-doesnt-trust-its-own-processors-project-quantum-driven-by-intel-core-i7-4790k.html

 

That's kinda what I've saying about Zen. Do you know how significant a jump from Bulldozer to something that competes with Haswell is? That's massive. For once in a long time, they actually have something that's going be competitive.

[zMeul]

That's kinda what I've saying about Zen. Do you know how significant a jump from Bulldozer to something that competes with Haswell is? That's massive. For once in a long time, they actually have something that's going be competitive.

you still don't get it, do you

Haswell is a 2y+ old architecture built around a 22nm FinFET node

Zen on the other hand, will be a 14nm FinFET (but absolutely not comparable to Intel's 14nm); and you're telling me their Zen doesn't even match that .. what a joke!

what will happen next year when Intel will jump to 10nm (Cannonlake)?!

[Sakkura]

AMD has't been an alternative since god knows when

and BAPCo's Sysmark is not a consumer grade benchmark, it aimed at enterprise clients - market sector where AMD lost big time

how can AMD still claim to be taken seriously when they show systems with Intel CPUs, remember that Project Quantum at E3 last year? it used a Intel platform: https://www.techpowerup.com/213682/amd-doesnt-trust-its-own-processors-project-quantum-driven-by-intel-core-i7-4790k.html

The fact that they use Intel CPUs shows that they are realistic about their CPU performance, if anything.

Anyway, AMD was complaining about the benchmark because of integrated graphics as much as anything. Nvidia quit at the same time, which does give AMD more credibility.

[HKZeroFive]

you still don't get it, do you

Haswell is a 2y+ old architecture built around a 22nm FinFET node

Zen on the other hand, will be a 14nm FinFET (but absolutely not comparable to Intel's 14nm); and you're telling me their Zen doesn't even match that .. what a joke!

what will happen next year when Intel will jump to 10nm (Cannonlake)?!

 

When did I say Zen doesn't match Haswell? We're expecting it to be somewhere around 40% faster than Excavator, putting Zen on par with or even higher than Haswell.

 

Look at Skylake. That uses 14nm. The improvement from Haswell is about 10-15% faster, that's an minimal improvement at best. So you telling me that just because AMD's Zen is 14nm and on par with Haswell, that it's a joke? Laughable.

 

I don't know how Cannonlake will perform but I'm predicting it's another 10-15% improvement over Kaby Lake, judging from Intel's trends.

 

The fact you people expect that AMD will suddenly catch up to Intel is a joke in itself, actually be realistic for once. The only thing Zen is hoping to achieve is for AMD to be relevant again and making some competition.

[VerticalDiscussions]

So AMD just did this? Why....

 

[Sauron]

common sense

right in what way exactly? if you watched the video, AMD doesn't directly implicate Intel, they don't even claim their CPUs are better than Intel's

they accuse BAPCo for the payload in their benchmark for showing way too much difference compared to their own tests (ha!) and PCMark benchmark

I haven't used Sysmark and since it's aimed at a enterprise audience I suspect it benchmarks a whole lot of more instances that PCMark; PCMark that's aimed at a broader audience, a "consumer grade" benchmark

enterprise consumers don't spend their time on YouTube, so where exactly is AMD aiming this? at their fanboys

they're pre-heating the pot for Zen's launch

recently, AMD discussed an alternative to NVLink .. who the fuck cares?! not the sector this is aimed at

nVidia already has customers for NVLink, they partnered with IBM to provide a complete solution; AMD just talks

it reminds me of this:

 

Right in their accusations... I find it baffling how people just take and dismiss all claims from a company when they don't like it. Reminds me of when nvidia sued samsung, lost, and people where giving samsung shit over it without having a clue on anything that was being discussed.

 

Take a look at this too:

 

Are you going to say tek syndicate is also biased?

 

Sure, their reason to say it in a video is marketing, that doesn't automatically mean it's not true. The target is anyone who stumbles across the video or news of it online like we did. Nowadays things like this don't stop at one video, the rumour spreads. You can either look into it like a normal person or just dismiss it as "playing victim" without any reliable information that shows they are wrong.

[zMeul]

The fact that they use Intel CPUs shows that they are realistic about their CPU performance, if anything.

Anyway, AMD was complaining about the benchmark because of integrated graphics as much as anything. Nvidia quit at the same time, which does give AMD more credibility.

how can you bring nVidia into this?! it's about CPUs, nVidia doesn't play in the x86 market

them quitting could've been anything, they realized it's a waste of resources .. perhaps

in 2011 (was it) when AMD exited BAPCo, they complained about the methodology not about Intel doing "something" to them

[zMeul]

Look at Skylake. That uses 14nm. The improvement from Haswell is about 10-15% faster, that's an minimal improvement at best. So you telling me that just because AMD's Zen is 14nm and on par with Haswell, that it's a joke? Laughable.

yes, quite laughable

Intel isn't even trying anymore, they churn out new CPUs out of inertia

haven't you heard? the PC market isn't even on their priorities, it became boring, they're competing against themselves since AMD can't

[zMeul]

tek syndicate

I laugh ..

Tek Syndicate did a piece a few years back that left me thinking if they're actually a comedy channel or they actually quite serious - I stopped checking them out since

and, the big piece you are still missing, is that this isn't about gaming or end-user stuff; it's about enterprise sector - you know, that enterprise sector that doesn't follow YouTube for the latest trends in who to hate on next

[Sauron]

I laugh ..

Tek Syndicate did a piece a few years back that left me thinking if they're actually a comedy channel or they actually quite serious - I stopped checking them out since

 

If you say so. In my experience they are reliable and know what they're doing, more so than a lot of tech channels - and most of all, they aren't biased in any way.

[HKZeroFive]

yes, quite laughable

Intel isn't even trying anymore, they churn out new CPUs out of inertia

haven't you heard? the PC market isn't even on their priorities, it became boring, they're competing against themselves since AMD can't

 

And that's what I've been saying but somehow you've completely missed that.

 

To reiterate: Intel is dominating. AMD hasn't put out a competitive CPU in ages, and Zen's going to change that. Will it be better than whatever Intel has at the moment? No, of course not. Will it provide an alternate choice to Intel's products if priced correctly? Yes. It uses DDR4 - already one advantage over Haswell.

 

What I don't get though is why you suddenly expect AMD to beating Intel all of a sudden by comparing their 14nm to Intel's. Let's be realistic.

[Sakkura]

how can you bring nVidia into this?! it's about CPUs, nVidia doesn't play in the x86 market

them quitting could've been anything, they realized it's a waste of resources .. perhaps

 

It's not just about x86 performance, that's the whole point. And Nvidia deciding, completely by chance, to quit at exactly the same time as AMD? Come on. That was no coincidence.

[nicehat]

those cheating bastardos. 

[cesrai]

And that's what I've been saying but somehow you've completely missed that.

 

To reiterate: Intel is dominating. AMD hasn't put out a competitive CPU in ages, and Zen's going to change that. Will it be better than whatever Intel has at the moment? No, of course not. Will it provide an alternate choice to Intel's products if priced correctly? Yes. It uses DDR4 - already one advantage over Haswell.

 

What I don't get though is why you suddenly expect AMD to beating Intel all of a sudden by comparing their 14nm to Intel's. Let's be realistic.

How is DDR4 an advantage ?

[zMeul]

It's not just about x86 performance, that's the whole point. And Nvidia deciding, completely by chance, to quit at exactly the same time as AMD? Come on. That was no coincidence.

back in 2011, what exact markets were nVidia and Intel competing in?!

[PerfectTemplar]

The performance difference between the two is pretty minimal. If AMD can match Haswell and sell it around that price, that's enough for me. Plus, Zen has DDR4 whereas Haswell doesn't.

Same price for performance that has been out for over a year won't give AMD increased market share. Even if it's good enough for you. It's sad, I don't know why AMD would do this and I hope they have a competitor to Kaby Lake. If their highest end CPU is the performance of an i5 skylake CPU that's a bit of a problem.

[zMeul]

How is DDR4 an advantage ?

bandwidth

[HKZeroFive]

How is DDR4 an advantage ?

 

Marketing. Quite a few people buy Skylake over Haswell because of DDR4 as way to "futureproof" their PC builds. We all know it's BS but it works.

 

If you really want to get specific, lower power draw and faster data transfer rates.

[HKZeroFive]

Same price for performance that has been out for over a year won't give AMD increased market share. Even if it's good enough for you. It's sad, I don't know why AMD would do this and I hope they have a competitor to Kaby Lake. If their highest end CPU is the performance of an i5 skylake CPU that's a bit of a problem.

 

Understandable. But I'm happy enough for AMD to actually make a relevant CPU. Get back into the CPU market first, focus on beating the big "evil" company known as Intel second. AMD isn't going to be able to beat a monopoly such as Intel straight away.

[Sakkura]

back in 2011, what exact markets were nVidia and Intel competing in?!

 

Nvidia was trying to sell a lot of Tegra chips in 2011.

[cesrai]

bandwidth

Doesn't the latency go up as well ?

[patrickjp93]

Uh... intel has lied through their teeth before too... in fact they have lied about very similar things to what they're being accused of right now. Of course I don't know if it's true or not, but just dismissing it as amd "playing victim" is unfair. As for a lawsuit, maybe that will come, but remember the pentium 4 lawsuit? Amd doesn't really have the money to engage in a 12 year suit with intel.

What I find irritating is that you KNOW if this was intel accusing amd everyone would be jumping at amd's throat with no proof.

Intel would be leaving itself open to slander and liable as anticompetitive practices. AMD is way too small to fall into contention with that branch of antitrust law. And Intel doesn't throw wild accusations. When was the last time Intel sued someone or claimed abuse of software/hardware standards? Intel doesn't have a habit of bringing up accusations for appearance. AMD does. Look no further than Richard Huddy's lies about Gameworks making it impossible for AMD to optimize. Nvidia replied saying they do most of theirs on binary files anyway, and now in a couple cases AMD is beating Nvidia in some Gameworks games on the high end. This accusation smells like a red herring to me. And AMD would stand to win more money from such a suit than it would lose. Intel is big enough that the damages payable for antitrust behaviors are in the ~100 million USD range for simply farting in the wrong direction. This is getting free advertisement and is borderline slander until proof is presented. At least Apple is publicly quiet about its accusations of other companies. They keep it in the courtroom and let judges decide. If AMD had a habit of doing that, I'd be far less skeptical.

[zMeul]

Nvidia was trying to sell a lot of Tegra chips in 2011.

if I recall, BAPCo doesn't even cover that sector

the cover workstation, laptops and tablets (not the Android kind)

[Sakkura]

if I recall, BAPCo doesn't even cover that sector

the cover workstation, laptops and tablets (not the Android kind)

 

Tabletmark tests tablets, including Android of course.

 

Anyway, downplaying GPU performance on PC negatively affects Nvidia too.