[Forbes] Why 'Watch Dogs' Is Bad News For AMD Users -- And Potentially The Entire PC Gaming Ecosystem

[carolkarine]

Mantle makes the game run more efficiently, while Gameworks includes a suite of visual effects. Why is it a problem that they chose to add visual effects, is that not what pc gamers want most? the super effects that make the experience all that much better? i think the difference here makes all the arguments about mantly being open irrelevant, its not mantle.

 

the problem is not the open standards. any game developed with mantle also is developed for directX. it may run better on mantle, but mantle doesn't lock the other company out of the game's source code (for directX). Nvidia gameworks DOES lock AMD out of the source code, effectively.

[AHaskin14]

the problem is not the open standards. any game developed with mantle also is developed for directX. it may run better on mantle, but mantle doesn't lock the other company out of the game's source code (for directX). Nvidia gameworks DOES lock AMD out of the source code, effectively.

Thats a pretty good point then. I guess im just hung up on Gameworks actually adding to features in the game not just making it run better like mantle does and theres so many people bringing up mantle. It is pretty unfair that it works out that way for AMD users but then why would Nvidia take the time to specially code and optimize for AMD. I bet there will be some "standardized" committee that will come about and set regulations.

[pbenologa]

"Open" is not strictly inherently "Open Source". You can have a programming API that has plenty of documentation and support, yet still have its source code undisclosed.

To put it simply, as far i know. Developers hate gameworks and they like the idea of mantle. 

[Switchblade Ninja]

Even more quality gameplay from quality game....

 

[IPCharger]

So Nvidia has a program where developers put some extra time into making the game look good and run well only on Nvidia hardware? Yeah, AMD would NEVER do anything like that. I mean, say, inventing a whole new API that's only compatible with AMD GPUs but boosts performance significantly for games that use it... totally not something AMD would do.

 

Let me just quote this comment from another article about Gameworks:

 

 

The difference between Gameworks and Mantle is that AMD cannot work with developers to optimize GW libraries for AMD GPUs. Developers can optimize those libraries in some situations, but they cannot share code with AMD.

How much does this matter? Quite a bit, in my personal opinion. Optimizing for Mantle does not hurt a developer's ability to optimize for Direct3D in any shape or form. A company that optimizes for Mantle on AMD can still optimize its D3D implementation for Nvidia.

But the Nvidia GW libraries implement core DX11 functionality, and they do so in a way that AMD can't match unless it creates its own libraries from scratch *and* persuades the developer to use them.

To summarize:

A developer that uses Mantle is not prohibited from optimizing D3D for Nvidia cards in any fashion.

A developer that uses GameWorks cannot optimize GW functions for AMD graphics cards.

They are not equivalent.

[Syntaxvgm]

Even more quality gameplay from quality game....

 

no freakin way that's terrible and lazy

[carolkarine]

Thats a pretty good point then. I guess im just hung up on Gameworks actually adding to features in the game not just making it run better like mantle does and theres so many people bringing up mantle. It is pretty unfair that it works out that way for AMD users but then why would Nvidia take the time to specially code and optimize for AMD. I bet there will be some "standardized" committee that will come about and set regulations.

 

it's not that Nvidia isn't take time to optimize for AMD as well, they wouldn't bother doing that because AMD doesn't get the new additions gameworks adds. 

 

What nvidia IS doing is requiring developers to lock AMD out of the development process. They are taking extra time to ask developers to keep AMD from adding their own optimizations into the source code.

 

This is a common thing. almost ever AAA game has this treatment from both GPU producers. however, Nvidia found a way to lock AMD out of this process.

[OnCue]

Haven't they been working on this game since like 2011? Yet the game still runs like crap on high powered machines (even Nvidia cards). I feel like they should've had plenty of time to streamline the code, but nope. Not to mention they delayed the game for 7 months.

Game developers are really starting to push my buttons (pun intended), I mean these junky business practices shouldn't fly, and I will NOT be buying a game that is not up to par just so a company can make more money off of gimmicks like Gameworks. I'd rather have a fun game than a slightly prettier boring game.

[Askew]

How is this different from AMD Gaming Evolved titles?

[Syntaxvgm]

How is this different from AMD Gaming Evolved titles?

Go play AC4 with amd hardware and come back. 

AMD doesn't purposely make games perform like shit on NVIDIA hardware, but NVIDIA makes games run like shit on AMD hardware. 

If this GPU war bullshit continues im gonna do both AMD and NVIDIA in my next machine. Probably just take a few of my mining cards and game on them. 

[Askew]

Go play AC4 with amd hardware and come back. 

AMD doesn't purposely make games perform like shit on NVIDIA hardware, but NVIDIA makes games run like shit on AMD hardware. 

 

I played AC4 with my 670 on launch and it ran like dogshit, I haven't gone back to it.

 

I think AC4 is just a poor port full stop.

[Syntaxvgm]

I played AC4 with my 670 on launch and it ran like dogshit, I haven't gone back to it.

 

I think AC4 is just a poor port full stop.

Unplayable on a lot of AMD hardware. That surprises me because it played good on a 650ti for me. I found it someone ran really smooth and stable on the 650ti if I just did vsync. Weird. 

But yea this PC last thing is getting annoying Ubisoft. 

[pixeldensity]

Does AC4 run horribly on amd? Damn I was going to buy that game when it came out on steam sale. You'd figure since console are more pc like it be easier. Why can't Ubisoft get some people who know how to optimize for the PC.

[Askew]

Unplayable on a lot of AMD hardware. That surprises me because it played good on a 650ti for me. I found it someone ran really smooth and stable on the 650ti if I just did vsync. Weird. 

But yea this PC last thing is getting annoying Ubisoft. 

 

I did say 'on launch' and that I've not gone back to it, assuming it's been dealt with now it could be fine I don't know, but that was the last Ubisoft PC game I had on launch (came with my 670).

[Syntaxvgm]

really it does?! Damn I was going to buy that game when it came out on steam sale. You'd figure since console are more pc like it be easier. Why can't Ubisoft get some people who know how to optimize for the PC.

Well for crossfire I found that running it on 1x1 optimize really improves it for some reason, even over regular AFR. Makes no sense but it works. I notice for most cards using vsync dramatically improves performance.  Idk why that really confuses me. 

I't also worth mentioning it has a 30fps vsync option and it's suprisingly playable if need be, so that a good thing. 

I suggest bootleg and try first to see if you can get it to run acceptably. It is a lot better game than AC3, so it is worth getting if it'll work for you. 

[mgsstar]

Here are the benchmarks for Watch Dogs R9 290X and GTX 770 and was surprised in how the GTX 770 can beat or almost beat the R9 290X in Watch Dogs even though they are pretty different in terms of price: http://www.tweaktown.com/news/37988/watch-dogs-performs-much-better-on-nvidia-gpus-amd-slips/index.htm

l

[Syntaxvgm]

Here are the benchmarks for Watch Dogs R9 290X and GTX 770 and was surprised in how the GTX 770 can beat or almost beat the R9 290X in Watch Dogs even though they are pretty different in terms of price: http://www.tweaktown.com/news/37988/watch-dogs-performs-much-better-on-nvidia-gpus-amd-slips/index.htm

l

Not surprised. Normally the 770 is a lil below the 290x, which is disappointing seeing it is cheaper. I expect more from AMD. Mining is driving prices up. Although the 290x IS the top of the line, so it comes witha premium

[jmaster299]

First off, this is no different than AMD users benefiting from Mantle. Second, AMD does NOT control 40% of the GPU market. They have never controlled 40% of the market share. Nvidia has had an almost 2 to 1 advantage for a long time.

[Syntaxvgm]

First off, this is no different than AMD users benefiting from Mantle. Second, AMD does NOT control 40% of the GPU market. They have never controlled 40% of the market share. Nvidia has had an almost 2 to 1 advantage for a long time.

Amd does not lock NVIDIA out. 

[worldwin]

I am usually a pacifist when it comes to which side is better, but this is just blatant fanboism. Whichever side has the best performance:dollar is the right card to get, but this BS "GameWorks" from Nvidia is skewing the results into Nvidia's favor, deceiving customers. I am honestly considering this to be illegal for false advertising. This isn't "Nvidia optimized", it's "AMD gimped".

I like how you think.

[Syntaxvgm]

 

 

I am usually a pacifist when it comes to which side is better, but this is just blatant fanboism. Whichever side has the best performance:dollar is the right card to get, but this BS "GameWorks" from Nvidia is skewing the results into Nvidia's favor, deceiving customers. I am honestly considering this to be illegal for false advertising. This isn't "Nvidia optimized", it's "AMD gimped".

EXACTLY! This is what I wish people that compare this with mantle would understand. I actually prefer NVIDIA cards, but this is bullshit on nvidias part. This is dishonest. 

[mgsstar]

Not surprised. Normally the 770 is a lil below the 290x, which is disappointing seeing it is cheaper. I expect more from AMD. Mining is driving prices up. Although the 290x IS the top of the line, so it comes witha premium

The price for the R9 290X has now dropped in price (AMD announced that the inflation was over) and I see a pretty big difference between those two cards except some benchmark like Star Citizen Hanger where the FPS difference is less than 10 : http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/1056?vs=1037 (I assume that their benchmarks are not overclocked)

http://youtu.be/djvZaHHU4I8?t=9m23s

[Syntaxvgm]

The price for the R9 290X has now dropped in price (AMD announced that the inflation was over) and I see a pretty big difference between those two cards except some benchmark like Star Citizen Hanger where the FPS difference is less than 10 : http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/1056?vs=1037 (I assume that their benchmarks are not overclocked)

http://youtu.be/djvZaHHU4I8?t=9m23s

Really?  Based on scores and other benchmarks I saw I didn't think they were that far apart. But in that one the 290x really shines. Hmm. 

[nokturrduk84]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcCqfuam-tc

 

 

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 Amazing indeed

Wow. What a... I don't even have words, just removed Watch Dogs from my wishlist!

[kuddlesworth9419]

A bit like what happened between Tomb Raider 2013 and Nvidia. Nvidia never even got their hands on it until it was released.