Trick or M3-treat? - Apple’s pre-Halloween “Scary Fast” virtual event

[leadeater]

4 hours ago, saltycaramel said:

Out of curiosity, can somebody point me to a 1599$ 14.2” Windows laptop with a miniLED 1600nit/1000nit Vrr 24-120Hz display and flexless sturdy unibody aluminum build?

 

So I can better appreciate how Apple is ripping off the M3 14” MBP buyers with those pesky 8GB of RAM in the base 1599$ config...

Think I'll save ~$900 and get the ASUS Zenbook 14X OLED 2880x1800 120Hz HDR600. I'd rather the OLED which also has a brighter perceived output not that I want that, I don't need to go blind lol. Realistically I'd get the 16GB model though so knock the savings down to ~$750.

 

But really really I'd wait for ASUS Zenbook 14X OLED Ryzen 7000 update, currently only Ryzen 6000 if you want AMD and the way better battery life.

 

Just remember the display and body are the least challenging and competive aspects about a MacBook/Mac. The above ZenBook 14X OLED to actually do all the things you can do on the Mac you have to configure it around the same ~$1600 price point with a dGPU otherwise it's got no hope at competing with any of the professional apps, I just personally don't use them and wouldn't waste money on a mobile dGPU. Also add on the fact that on battery the dGPU won't be full performance either.

 

 

This is probably the most completive laptop I know of currently in this price area. Something like the HP ZBook Firefly 14 G10 is too expensive and would be going against and M3 Pro or high optioned M3, it is Ryzen 7000 which is nice. 

[captain_to_fire]

49 minutes ago, leadeater said:

But really really I'd wait for ASUS Zenbook 14X OLED Ryzen 7000 update, currently only Ryzen 6000 if you want AMD and the way better battery life.

Good thing that Lenovo is already using R7000 in their laptops

[leadeater]

13 minutes ago, captain_to_fire said:

Good thing that Lenovo is already using R7000 in their laptops

Many have, but they are deficient in the areas specified to compare to. Personally I don't make a big deal about screens and I like Lenovo a lot but they don't really have anything that's 90-120 Hz, HDR600 or better and only have standard IPS screen options found on anything else in the ~14" screen/laptop size.

 

Asus have Ryzen 7000 laptops, just not the ZenBook 14X yet.

[RabbidEwok]

14 minutes ago, captain_to_fire said:

Good thing that Lenovo is already using R7000 in their laptops

Issue is it’s a Lenovo. Haven’t used a laptop from them that wasn’t extremely poor. 

[tassadarforaiur]

I would jump ship from Lenovo to Apple in a heartbeat if Tim Apple gave us trackpoint.

[Commodus]

33 minutes ago, tassadarforaiur said:

I would jump ship from Lenovo to Apple in a heartbeat if Tim Apple gave us trackpoint.

I appreciate trackpoints, but at the same time… Apple is legendary for great trackpads. You might not miss that little nub so much in practice.

[WhitetailAni]

On 10/30/2023 at 8:58 PM, missell said:

Makes me wonder if they're considering moving from the Pro/Air model to a singular "MacBook" model. With the axing of the 13-inch Pro and now non-pro pros.

The internal Mac identifiers have moved from MacBookProx,x, MacProx,x, iMacx,x, MacBookAirx,x, Macminix,x, etc. to just Macx,x with Apple Silicon. So maybe?

[Alex Atkin UK]

19 hours ago, Kisai said:

That is the intended design for the air. The Mini's always had a fan, but the fan almost never spins up, on any generation of mini unless you quite literately spin up something like a video encoder.

 

People likewise buy these things with that expectation, not wanting to listen to a jet engine like other laptops and SFF's.

 

The default fan profile is utterly dumb though as you can bring temperatures to sane values with TG Pro and even with the fans at 75% its not THAT loud, even 100% is quieter than most PCs.  In public or with headphones on, you're just not going to notice and its worth it to not throttle performance.

 

Like everything Apple, its frustrating they take control away from the user rather than just letting us choose between Silent and Performance fan profiles in settings.  Why even have have fans that can run so fast if it never actually does so?

[saltycaramel]

7 hours ago, leadeater said:

Think I'll save ~$900 and get the ASUS Zenbook 14X OLED 2880x1800 120Hz HDR600. I'd rather the OLED which also has a brighter perceived output not that I want that, I don't need to go blind lol. Realistically I'd get the 16GB model though so knock the savings down to ~$750.

 

…

 

Just remember the display and body are the least challenging and competive aspects about a MacBook/Mac.

I’m not convinced the point about the display has been made.

 

I’d wait for this new kind of actually-PC-grade OLEDs to rival an excellent LCD with miniLED:

 

Quote

Compared with the "single-stack" method, in which the light-emitting layer is contained in a single layer, the additional emission later in dual-stack OLED screens serves to increase screen brightness two-fold and lifespan four-fold. Dual-stack tandem technology has recently become the focus of the industry's attention as news has spread of Apple's intention to utilize dual-stack tandem OLED screens in its first OLED iPad, which will be launched in 2024. Up to now, the only product series that has utilized dual-stack series connections in mass-produced OLEDs is the car displays made by LG Display. 

Apple will roll them out from spring 2024 (iPad Pro), thru 2025 (iPad Air, iPad Mini, MacBook Air), to fall 2026 (MacBook Pro 14”/16” redesign), finally being good enough to replace the miniLEDs. 
 

Until then, the 254ppi 24-120Hz ProMotion 1000nit-sustained 1600nit-peak 600nit-SDR miniLED displays found in MBPs will be a “tent-pole” competitive advantage that will keep driving me and others (among other aspects of the laptop) towards these machines…even if it comes at a price.. 

[Alex Atkin UK]

6 hours ago, leadeater said:

Think I'll save ~$900 and get the ASUS Zenbook 14X OLED 2880x1800 120Hz HDR600. I'd rather the OLED which also has a brighter perceived output not that I want that, I don't need to go blind lol. Realistically I'd get the 16GB model though so knock the savings down to ~$750.

 

But really really I'd wait for ASUS Zenbook 14X OLED Ryzen 7000 update, currently only Ryzen 6000 if you want AMD and the way better battery life.

 

Just remember the display and body are the least challenging and competive aspects about a MacBook/Mac. The above ZenBook 14X OLED to actually do all the things you can do on the Mac you have to configure it around the same ~$1600 price point with a dGPU otherwise it's got no hope at competing with any of the professional apps, I just personally don't use them and wouldn't waste money on a mobile dGPU. Also add on the fact that on battery the dGPU won't be full performance either.

 

 

This is probably the most completive laptop I know of currently in this price area. Something like the HP ZBook Firefly 14 G10 is too expensive and would be going against and M3 Pro or high optioned M3, it is Ryzen 7000 which is nice. 

Yeah the main reason I decided to get a 16" M1 Pro was battery life and not losing performance when on battery.

 

Then I was blown away by the screen and speakers, although the low pixel response time and blooming is not great, its a none issue for content consumption and general usage.

 

I'm really put off buying another gaming laptop due to the generally insanely loud cooling solutions.  I don't mind so much it being thicker and heavier, if the cooling wasn't STILL too loud to game without headphones.

[hishnash]

43 minutes ago, Alex Atkin UK said:

Like everything Apple, its frustrating they take control away from the user rather than just letting us choose between Silent and Performance fan profiles in settings.  Why even have have fans that can run so fast if it never actually does so?

Fans will spin at full speed when very hot, eg if you leave your laptop in NZ winter (or worce summer) sun.  Even if your just doing almost nothing it will start to sound like a jet engine.. its a good warning that you should have put sound lotion on your arms about 3 hours ago and you already have 3rd degree burns from our sun. 

[tassadarforaiur]

4 hours ago, Commodus said:

I appreciate trackpoints, but at the same time… Apple is legendary for great trackpads. You might not miss that little nub so much in practice.

I wish that was the case, but I have a 16" m1 mbp. Also tried framework 13 and XPS 16. Always gotta go back to trackpoint.

x140e -> x230t/w520-> t470 -> t14 AMD g2 -> p14s AMD g4. And it's only because of the trackpoint. Lenovo speakers and displays suck, and their goddamn wifi card whitelist is infuriating.

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, saltycaramel said:

I’m not convinced the point about the display has been made.

 

I’d wait for this new kind of actually-PC-grade OLEDs to rival an excellent LCD with miniLED:

 

Apple will roll them out from spring 2024 (iPad Pro), thru 2025 (iPad Air, iPad Mini, MacBook Air), to fall 2026 (MacBook Pro 14”/16” redesign), finally being good enough to replace the miniLEDs. 
 

Until then, the 254ppi 24-120Hz ProMotion 1000nit-sustained 1600nit-peak 600nit-SDR miniLED displays found in MBPs will be a “tent-pole” competitive advantage that will keep driving me and others (among other aspects of the laptop) towards these machines…even if it comes at a price.. 

lol so, that doesn't stop the OLED on the mentioned laptop being better in many ways to Apples' current miniLED screen. OLEDs have always been lower peak brightness but the truth is you'll never be running your screen at a brightness setting that will do that 1600 peak because it does actually hurt.

 

OLED is better than miniLED, miniLED is a different technology aimed at trying to get the benefits of OLED while not actually doing it but it does have it's own benefits which are more the trade offs of OLED rather than actually being a benefits themselves.

 

OLED:

Superior image quality

Superior colours

Superior contrast

Superior pixel response time (0.2ms vs 1ms)

 

Whoever wrote what you quoted is just wrong. Not that I would ever turn down or call any Apple display bad but it being better than the current best OLEDs just is not correct. miniLEDs are great, Apples is great but you don't need that super peak brightness and it does not actually offset what makes OLED better. You'll just still have the exact same screen in 5 years while you won't on the OLED, which is the real reason Apple is sitcking with miniLEDs right now.

 

1 hour ago, saltycaramel said:

finally being good enough to replace the miniLEDs. 

This has to be the most coping, least objective statement I have ever read. miniLEDs struggle to be as good as OLED, not the other way around. Literally anyone that thinks miniLED is as good as OLED is wrong. miniLED wins in two areas currently, only one that matters, lifespan/endurance.

 

And that is what the actual manufacturers of the display panels say.

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, Alex Atkin UK said:

I'm really put off buying another gaming laptop due to the generally insanely loud cooling solutions.  I don't mind so much it being thicker and heavier, if the cooling wasn't STILL too loud to game without headphones.

And a good warning to plugin or... too late 0% battery.

[saltycaramel]

39 minutes ago, leadeater said:

This has to be the most coping, least objective statement I have ever read. miniLEDs struggle to be as good as OLED, not the other way around. Literally anyone that thinks miniLED is as good as OLED is wrong. miniLED wins in two areas currently, only one that matters, lifespan/endurance.

 

And that is what the actual manufacturers of the display panels say.

I think you’re conflating the tv panel market (where high-end OLEDs have a clear prestige status over miniLED LCDs) and the laptop panel market (what in the industry are referred to as “IT grade OLEDs”, and this “IT grade” moniker already hints at the concept that it’s not just a matter of shrinking down a tv OLED panel or making a supersized smartphone OLED panel).
 

In laptops/tablets, shipments of IT grade OLEDs are projected to skyrocket only after dual-stack OLEDs become available. (and after a certain fruity company starts shipping a lot of them)

 

[Paul Thexton]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

miniLED wins in two areas currently, only one that matters, lifespan/endurance.

Given all the arguments that happen on this forum about upgradeability/repairability and specifically the reduction of e-waste (none of which I disagree with btw, I hate Apple's software locking of components), personally I'd say that even though endurance is only 1 win area, it's a pretty big one to have a tick against.

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, Paul Thexton said:

Given all the arguments that happen on this forum about upgradeability/repairability and specifically the reduction of e-waste (none of which I disagree with btw, I hate Apple's software locking of components), personally I'd say that even though endurance is only 1 win area, it's a pretty big one to have a tick against.

oh yea it is significant and if you are using the screen professionally then it matters, while in general not that much. Like that Asus laptop is even Pantone certified but like all screens you have to check and calibrate the screen often, they don't stay calibrated over their life and the problem with OLED is at some point what it's lost compared to new make it really not why you would have purchased it in the first place, not as a professional anyway.

 

Given that it'll be perfectly fine for 3 years it's not that big of a deal if you upgrade in that sort of time frame.

 

All of that combined with the cost of OLED generally make it unattractive which is why miniLED, Quantum Dot etc all got developed because as a technology everyone loved OLED but the initial problems with it kept everyone away, 2023 OLED isn't 2016 though.

 

Also the screen is HDR600 TrueBlack, HDR-TB600 is above HDR1400 standard.

 

https://displayhdr.org/

 

2 hours ago, saltycaramel said:

I think you’re conflating the tv panel market (where high-end OLEDs have a clear prestige status over miniLED LCDs) and the laptop panel market (what in the industry are referred to as “IT grade OLEDs”, and this “IT grade” moniker already hints at the concept that it’s not just a matter of shrinking down a tv OLED panel or making a supersized smartphone OLED panel).

No, the technology is exactly the same between both, what differs is the size, calibration and display driver. What's kept OLED out of laptops is cost for size, OLED is very expensive.

 

"IT grade" is not a thing, it's make-believe "name" that means nothing.

 

And when I said the panel manufactures I mean the panel manufactures, not the consumer electronics division that sells TVs. There is a reason Samsung Display stopped making any and all LCD technology and sold that off to TCL.

 

P.S. There are brighter and more colour accurate OLEDs on laptops, like Dell, but they don't have 120Hz. That higher fresh rate has some trade offs right now for OLEDs. Asus however has been the only brand to be putting OLEDs in cheaper affordable laptops.

[LAwLz]

13 hours ago, HenrySalayne said:

You should not forget that "up to 30%" actually means "this is the utmost maximum performance increase you can expect on one particular workload if all the stars align". This could mean that most tasks see a 15% increase while this one task sees 30%; it could also mean all tasks but one see absolutely no improvement.

This is just like Nvidia with their absolutely worthless "4x performance" claims with the 40 series.

I addressed that in my specific post.

As I said, Apple has historically been very good with their numbers. If I had to guess, the 30% number would be more or less accurate in a test like SPEC, which is a very good indicator of general performance.

 

You're right that "up to 30%" might mean that it gets 15% on average, but I don't agree that it means 30% is the absolute most you will ever see in any test. That's not usually how companies present "up to X% performance" claims. 

 

 

For example, Apple claimed that the M2 Ultra could "run up to 1.8x faster than the 28-core Intel-based Mac Pro".

That is true for general usage, but they can go way beyond a 1.8x increase in specific tests.

 

Geekbench 6:

Studio M2 Ultra single-core: 2832

Mac Pro (Xeon) single-core: 946

 

Studio M2 Ultra multi-core: 21497

Mac Pro (Xeon) multi-core: 8366

 

Photo filtering in that test shows a 1706% increase in performance, but it's not that number that Apple chose to highlight as their "up to X% higher performance" claims.

 

I don't think "up to" means what you think it means.

 

 

For example at the Qualcomm event the "up to" numbers just meant "We ran this specific program several times and the highest we recorded was X%, so that's what we present". It does not mean "out of all the programs we tested, X% was the biggest difference we recorded, but it was only in this particular program and all the other ones were lower".

 

"Up to" can mean different things so you have to be critical of those numbers, but your interpretation is most likely incorrect in this particular case and my interpretation will most likely be more accurate.

We can make a bet if you want.

If I am unable to find any benchmark that shows a larger than 30% performance increase between the M2 and M3, then you were right.

If I am unable to find generalized CPU benchmark suites like SPEC, Geekbench, PassMark, etc, that don't show a roughly 30% increase then I was wrong.

 

Please note that it is entirely possible that we are (partially) wrong and/or (partially) right.

[saltycaramel]

https://www.xda-developers.com/best-mini-led-laptops/

 

Wow miniLED laptops sure are pricey. 

 

This is a reality whether one considers miniLED diplays to be overall (for general non-gaming PC usage, which calls for a different mix of longevity, image retention, text clarity, power consumption, color reliability in time, brightness reliability in time, peak brightness, full screen brightness on a white background, etc. compared to TV usage, even if the technology is the same) the more prestige choice compared to single stack OLEDs or not. 

 

Based on that page, the new base 14" MBP at 1599$ may very well be the most affordable miniLED laptop on the market. Hence I won't clutch my pearl necklace if they skimp on the base RAM (although I had hoped that for the M3 the base RAM would move to 12GB or at least 10GB across all devices), it's not a matter of "in 2023..." or "at that price point.." or "with that Pro moniker..", you're just paying for other stuff.

[Distinctly Average]

4 hours ago, leadeater said:

oh yea it is significant and if you are using the screen professionally then it matters, while in general not that much. Like that Asus laptop is even Pantone certified but like all screens you have to check and calibrate the screen often, they don't stay calibrated over their life and the problem with OLED is at some point what it's lost compared to new make it really not why you would have purchased it in the first place, not as a professional anyway.

 

Given that it'll be perfectly fine for 3 years it's not that big of a deal if you upgrade in that sort of time frame.

 

All of that combined with the cost of OLED generally make it unattractive which is why miniLED, Quantum Dot etc all got developed because as a technology everyone loved OLED but the initial problems with it kept everyone away, 2023 OLED isn't 2016 though.

 

Also the screen is HDR600 TrueBlack, HDR-TB600 is above HDR1400 standard.

 

https://displayhdr.org/

 

No, the technology is exactly the same between both, what differs is the size, calibration and display driver. What's kept OLED out of laptops is cost for size, OLED is very expensive.

 

"IT grade" is not a thing, it's make-believe "name" that means nothing.

 

And when I said the panel manufactures I mean the panel manufactures, not the consumer electronics division that sells TVs. There is a reason Samsung Display stopped making any and all LCD technology and sold that off to TCL.

 

P.S. There are brighter and more colour accurate OLEDs on laptops, like Dell, but they don't have 120Hz. That higher fresh rate has some trade offs right now for OLEDs. Asus however has been the only brand to be putting OLEDs in cheaper affordable laptops.

Just to add to your bit about the technology being the same, anyone who has seen how panels are produced will agree. For those that don’t know, panels are made as one large sheet and cut to appropriate sizes. It is carefully calculated so off-cuts from the production of the large TV screens can be used for monitors, laptops, watches or any other tiny OLED display. As you say, they are just driven differently. I think the whole “off cut” thing may be where the impression of IT grade may have come from.

[saltycaramel]

Houston, we have a benchmark:

https://browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/3343681

 

 

GB6.2 single core scores

 

Apple M3 inside a 14.2" 15.5mm-thick laptop: 3076 

 

Snapdragon X Elite inside a 14.5" 15mm-thick laptop (23W TDP): 2780 

(Windows)

 

Snapdragon X Elite inside a 16.5" 16.8mm-thick laptop (80W TDP): 2971

(Windows)

 

Snapdragon X Elite inside a 16.5" 16.8mm-thick laptop (80W TDP): 3236

(Linux, fans at 100% full blast all of the time, why not also liquid nitrogen OCing at that point?)

 

Apple M3 shipping next week.

Snapdragon X Elite laptops shipping in "mid 2024", so like in 8 months.

 

 

Taking all of this into consideration, do you think it's fair for the Qualcomm guys to be so adamant in interviews and presentations that they are currently the "single core kings"? Are they really?

 

[DANK_AS_gay]

6 hours ago, leadeater said:

This has to be the most coping, least objective statement I have ever read. miniLEDs struggle to be as good as OLED, not the other way around. Literally anyone that thinks miniLED is as good as OLED is wrong. miniLED wins in two areas currently, only one that matters, lifespan/endurance.

 

And that is what the actual manufacturers of the display panels say.

When buying several thousand dollar devices I expect them to last. How is burn in on the Zenbooks? That's a major concern for a lot of buyers even if it's not actually a major concern. With the dual layer ones having 4x the lifespan, that would put my concerns about burn in to rest. The pixel response times are really bad on Apple's current displays though, I'll give you that. Good for media consumption and production, but not good for games. Not that anyone is playing games on a mac ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[DANK_AS_gay]

5 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

Houston, we have a benchmark:

https://browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/3343681

 

I looked into it to compare to M2 and saw the i3-10100 at 13 GHz topping the charts, wth?

[igormp]

17 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

Taking all of this into consideration, do you think it's fair for the Qualcomm guys to be so adamant in interviews and presentations that they are currently the "single core kings"? Are they really?

 

I mean, all vendors make this claim lol

[leadeater]

23 minutes ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

When buying several thousand dollar devices I expect them to last. How is burn in on the Zenbooks? That's a major concern for a lot of buyers even if it's not actually a major concern. With the dual layer ones having 4x the lifespan, that would put my concerns about burn in to rest. The pixel response times are really bad on Apple's current displays though, I'll give you that. Good for media consumption and production, but not good for games. Not that anyone is playing games on a mac ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Lifespan and burn-in are different things. There are in fact two different types of image retention for OLEDs. They all do a TFT reset every 4 hours automatically now to prevent the most common image retention issue.

 

Like I mentioned OLEDs in 2023 aren't the same as 2016, people acted the same way about NAND wear for example. People still do even.

 

The fact is dual stack will not remove any of these problems, when talking about OLED lifespan and endurance we are talking about diode output or rather brightness and colour accuracy. Dual-stack or multi-stack (even 5 is being talked about) gives higher peak brightness without having to drive the diodes as hard and you can also balance across the stacks. Any burn-in related befits are only tangential and not that significant going with multiple stacks.

 

What really matters for that is the panel logic, the controller and what is implemented there to mitigate the issue.

 

Also the other factor that has kept Apple away from OLED is the only premier source is Samsung, particularly with multi-stack. LG is coming out soon. Lots of companies, like Apple, don't like to be in single source situations as that can lead to multiple issues so it's best to just avoid that.

 

When picking something like a display going for the absolutely best thing on the market isn't always the best choice for the product, even then defining what is "the best" is basically impossible.

Edited November 1, 2023 by leadeater