Trick or M3-treat? - Apple’s pre-Halloween “Scary Fast” virtual event

[igormp]

17 minutes ago, Obioban said:

As in, looking at my Activity Monitor, it's shocking how infrequently the P cores even fire up-- whereas the E cores are always doing something. Having more and faster E cores likely improves the actual experience notably, and always.

Huh, is it possible to see the P and E cores usage individually through there? If so, how?

[Obioban]

46 minutes ago, igormp said:

Huh, is it possible to see the P and E cores usage individually through there? If so, how?

At work, so can't check how (stuck with windows at work), but from a random M3 Max review I was just reading:

 

 

Might just pop up by default if you toggle CPU History on. I don't remember doing anything fancy to display it.

[igormp]

1 hour ago, Obioban said:

At work, so can't check how (stuck with windows at work), but from a random M3 Max review I was just reading:

 

 

Might just pop up by default if you toggle CPU History on. I don't remember doing anything fancy to display it.

Just had to double click the cpu load chart on it to see that window, TIL haha

[Dracarris]

Yeah these P-guys are hardly doing anything. Should've gone with a less beefier CPU variant in hindsight.

 

 

 

[igormp]

13 minutes ago, Dracarris said:

Yeah these P-guys are hardly doing anything. Should've gone with a less beefier CPU variant in hindsight.

 

 

 

If your workload is mostly browsing, then they don't make tons of sense. For my daily work the P cores usually have more load than the E ones:

[saltycaramel]

On 11/1/2023 at 8:27 AM, leadeater said:

This has to be the most coping, least objective statement I have ever read. miniLEDs struggle to be as good as OLED, not the other way around. Literally anyone that thinks miniLED is as good as OLED is wrong. miniLED wins in two areas currently, only one that matters, lifespan/endurance.

 

And that is what the actual manufacturers of the display panels say.

 

 

[HenrySalayne]

2 hours ago, saltycaramel said:

It's extremely petty to come back with a response months later. Especially since the video is not even supporting your argument, it's just a waste of everybody's time.

[saltycaramel]

1 hour ago, HenrySalayne said:

It's extremely petty to come back with a response months later. Especially since the video is not even supporting your argument, it's just a waste of everybody's time.

 

On the other hand, I was the one being accused of "coping" to begin with.

Bold claims call for big evidence, even delayed evidence.

 

If one of the best TVs of 2024 (and if we know Sony, it could even end up being the best) is going to be a miniLED, maybe the stated OLED supremacy was not so cut, dry, clear and settled forever as it was implied, and each tech has its advantages. 

 

Sorry if I kinda feel vindicated by the very funny fact that in the same days I was being OLED-splained around here Sony was getting ready to unveil a miniLED flagship TV for 2024

[HenrySalayne]

8 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

If one of the best TVs of 2024 (and if we know Sony, it could even end up being the best) is going to be a miniLED, maybe the stated OLED supremacy was not so cut, dry, clear and settled forever as it was implied, and each tech has its advantages. 

 

Sorry if I kinda feel vindicated by the very funny fact that in the same days I was being OLED-splained around here Sony was getting ready to unveil a miniLED flagship TV for 2024

I don't think you really understand the end goal for mini LED: LED screens. The LCD will at some point disappear. In the future every single pixel will be self-emitting.

Wait a second! Every pixel is self-emitting? That sounds and awful lot like OLED.

 

mini LED is a gap technology. OLED might also be a gap technology once mass manufacturing of micro LED screens is feasible. And both have trade-offs. But if you simply compare picture quality, the OLED wins every time. Despite drawbacks when it comes to longevity, maximum brightness and cost.

 

[saltycaramel]

Just now, HenrySalayne said:

I don't think you really understand the end goal for mini LED: LED screens. The LCD will at some point disappear. In the future every single pixel will be self-emitting.

Wait a second! Every pixel is self-emitting? That sounds and awful lot like OLED.

 

mini LED is a gap technology. OLED might also be a gap technology once mass manufacturing of micro LED screens is feasible. And both have trade-offs. But if you simply compare picture quality, the OLED wins every time. Despite drawbacks when it comes to longevity, maximum brightness and cost.

 

We’re talking about miniLED LCDs today.

No relation with microLED and your “the end goal blah blah” philosophical musing. Rest assured LCD manufacturers do not have the “end goal” to be made obsolete by microLED. 
 

miniLED LCDs today are deemed suitable to be equipped on the year of our Lord 2024 flagship TV from Sony, and battle it out toe to toe with the best OLED TVs.

 

These are the facts.

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, saltycaramel said:

If one of the best TVs of 2024 (and if we know Sony, it could even end up being the best) is going to be a miniLED, maybe the stated OLED supremacy was not so cut, dry, clear and settled forever as it was implied, and each tech has its advantages. 

Nobody said it was cut and dry, other than you 

 

OLED is an outright better technology, always was and always will be. That doesn't mean it's the best in every application, for every usage at every price point.

 

You got yourself in to the situation, feeling the need to defend yourself, by your own rhetoric and erroneous statements about "PC grade OLED" which just isn't a thing. 

 

I mean it's taken how long for miniLED to be an actual competitor while OLED has been what it has the whole time, both improving over time.  Nothing is static, technology develops at different times and rates. The push for super bright HDR is, by your own video too, a style choice for content, it's a choice and those change over time. I don't have to like being blinded by bright effects, someone else might. It just doesn't matter, buy what you like, watch what you like.

 

Above all, don't let loyalty to a brand make you buy the wrong thing for your needs. If you need portable laptop usage in bright situations obviously minLED is better for that now, maybe always, who knows.

[HenrySalayne]

24 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

We’re talking about miniLED LCDs today.

No relation with microLED and your “the end goal blah blah” philosophical musing. Rest assured LCD manufacturers do not have the “end goal” to be made obsolete by microLED. 
 

miniLED LCDs today are deemed suitable to be equipped on the year of our Lord 2024 flagship TV from Sony, and battle it out toe to toe with the best OLED TVs.

 

These are the facts.

Your inability to join the dots is exhilarating.

Does Sony produce OLED screens themselves? Or where they reliant on their competition to supply them with the screens? Corporate decision making and the actual state of technology are completely separate topics. Arguing "they chose this so it must be better" is futile.

[Obioban]

On 1/6/2024 at 5:11 AM, leadeater said:

You got yourself in to the situation, feeling the need to defend yourself, by your own rhetoric and erroneous statements about "PC grade OLED" which just isn't a thing.

Not sure I agree with that statement. Certainly 5 years ago, if you attempted to use an OLED TV as a PC display, you'd have massive burn in in short order. I'd argue that makes them very much not "PC grade"

[leadeater]

3 hours ago, Obioban said:

Not sure I agree with that statement. Certainly 5 years ago, if you attempted to use an OLED TV as a PC display, you'd have massive burn in in short order. I'd argue that makes them very much not "PC grade"

That wasn't that actual statement being made. It was that there was some different special type of OLED that is "PC grade" which there is not. The panels between then and now haven't really changed that much to prevent burn in, that's all been in the display controller with things like pixel shift and better control over the panel to prevent over driving it.

 

Multi-layer OLED is coming but nobody calls it "PC grade" and it's not a requirement to use it for PCs, neither is Apple waiting for that either.

 

Fundamentally this all started because someone didn't want to accept that a screen was as equivalently good because it didn't have peak brightness, literally that's it. Both laptops being presented had screens that were exceptionally good and better than each other in different ways. I wouldn't turn down either.

 

Also I'm not going to relitigate the discussion again more than the above. If someone wants to then that is extremely telling, which it already has been, on their biases and non-objectivity.

 

Laptops and computer monitors with OLEDs have been around for a long time without major issue. I still have concerns for usages beyond 10 years but not 5. Multi-layer OLED should address that but until it's actually on the market with good information then it's only a hope and a supposed to.

[saltycaramel]

https://youtu.be/dtd-USDI-FA?feature=shared&t=344

relevant to the discussion.

[saltycaramel]

55 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

https://youtu.be/dtd-USDI-FA?feature=shared&t=344

relevant to the discussion.

(I love that in this SC video it’s evident that the Samsung Display reps must have pushed for the Apple angle, a mix of bragging about being part of the Apple supply chain, advocating for even more contracts from Apple and maybe even give us some hints about future contracts/products that are not public yet….some fun display supply chain inside baseball)

[HenrySalayne]

It puzzles me how you managed to not embed the video and how you also felt the need to reply to your very own post. Are you trying to caricature the general picture of an inept Apple user lacking the most basic skills?

 

Firstly I want to point out that just saying "relevant to the discussion" and not even saying what and why is extremely poor communication. Secondly the specific timestamp might say something else than what you might think (we don't know this because of our complete lack of elaboration). It's true that larger mother glass is better for large scale production. However, the company who bough all 3 nm capacity from TSMC certainly has the means to buy enought OLED panels in a market without any shortage whatsoever. Implying Apple "could not get OLED screens" is preposterous and a complete new point.

In the end it is - what a surprise - not relevant for the discussion.

[saltycaramel]

Many things should puzzle you and I can’t do much about it

[leadeater]

23 hours ago, HenrySalayne said:

However, the company who bough all 3 nm capacity from TSMC certainly has the means to buy enought OLED panels in a market without any shortage whatsoever. Implying Apple "could not get OLED screens" is preposterous and a complete new point.

In the end it is - what a surprise - not relevant for the discussion.

If Apple actually wants something they notify suppliers and manufacturers and pay for it, they didn't want OLED so they didn't do this. They did want to raise the base spec ram either so didn't do that either 

 

Also lager motherglass is only about cost not supply, you can make just as much smaller sheets to cut down to laptop panel sizes, the larger one isn't necessary. Scale out is a thing if a customer so asks for a supply rate that warrants it. I don't even think Apple made the wrong choice either, miniLED is a great balance of many things.

 

The idea that one has to be superior than the other in this use case is just dumb, there are lots of very good screens on laptops and monitors using different technologies. Equivalency doesn't actually or have to mean exactly the same in every way, that was never the point, and because that point has been lost we get this all over again, yay 

 

There can be "the superior technology" but it's what you do with it that counts. I do wonder if microLED will supplant OLED, also self emissive with greater longevity and order of magnitude better pixel response time. 

 

While we're at it lets just gloss over the fact that QD-OLED single layer is achieving 3000 nits.

[HenrySalayne]

5 hours ago, leadeater said:

There can be "the superior technology" but it's what you do with it that counts. I do wonder if microLED will supplant OLED, also self emissive with greater longevity and order of magnitude better pixel response time. 

 

While we're at it lets just gloss over the fact that QD-OLED single layer is achieving 3000 nits.

Even my PC monitor (2019, non-OLED, non-mini-LED) is still a good display. It's worse than a modern day&age OLED or mini-LED display, but the upgrades are more subtle than they were 5 years ago.

 

This years CES has shown huge steps in display technology. 10,000 nit mini-LED? OLED with 95% Rec.2020. Can't wait until these things trickle down to my price range.

[saltycaramel]

7 hours ago, leadeater said:

While we're at it lets just gloss over the fact that QD-OLED single layer is achieving 3000 nits.

 

How’s the text on those?

Have those been used in laptops so far?

[saltycaramel]

8 hours ago, leadeater said:

If Apple actually wants something they notify suppliers and manufacturers and pay for it, they didn't want OLED so they didn't do this.

 

What a coincidence these are also the years IT-destined OLEDs are also exploding for everyone, not just Apple (which will first use IT-destined OLEDs on the 13" and 11" M3 iPad Pros later this year), being one of the "pervasive applications" that are going to propel OLED revenue to the stratosphere.

 

https://x.com/DSCCRoss/status/1744458611877896636?s=20

 

It's almost like it's an industry-wide thing determined by the pace of technological advancements and multi-year investments during the previous decade that can't just be liquidated with "well they could just have ordered more IT-destined OLED motherglasses 5 years ago". (I bet the 2021 MBPs hardware was finalized like in 2019 or probably even earlier, after that it's not like they would ever switch display tech mid-generation, it's set in stone till the next big MBP redesign in 2026).

 

 

[Obioban]

I don't think Apple would necessarily wait for a case redesign to change screen techs.

 

I do think they wouldn't do it mid processor generation.

[saltycaramel]

34 minutes ago, Obioban said:

I don't think Apple would necessarily wait for a case redesign to change screen techs.

 

I do think they wouldn't do it mid processor generation.

The whole machine is designed to have a display assembly with that particular

- weight

- thickness

- structural rigidity 

- solutions pertaining the webcam (notch, thickness of the webcam, etc.)

 

If the new display tech has different characteristics in those regards (like if it’s thinner and lighter) how do you change that mid-chassis_generation without moving to what would amount to a new chassis? (something Apple usually avoid for this kind of product because they want to recoup the machinery investment and they want to give the impression of “predictable stability”)

[Obioban]

16 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

The whole machine is designed to have a display assembly with that particular

- weight

- thickness

- structural rigidity 

- solutions pertaining the webcam (notch, thickness of the webcam, etc.)

 

If the new display tech has different characteristics in those regards (like if it’s thinner and lighter) how do you change that mid-chassis_generation without moving to what would amount to a new chassis? (something Apple usually avoid for this kind of product because they want to recoup the machinery investment and they want to give the impression of “predictable stability”)

Those all seem relevant to the display portion of the computer, only. I guess the weight of the display changing could result in the need for a different assist spring, but otherwise it seems pretty contained.