Apple has to stop selling the iPhone 12 in France due to too much EMF Radiation.

[boxersteavee]

Summary

 France have told Apple to stop selling the iPhone 12 in their country, and may have to recall all sold models due to it allegedly emitting too much Electromagnetic Field Radiation, whilst the World Health Organisation state on their website that there is no evidence to show low level EMF is harmful to humans.

 

Quotes

Quote

 "The ANFR has advised Apple that if it cannot resolve the issue via a software update, it must recall every iPhone 12 ever sold in the country." - 1

 

"But the World Health Organization has previously sought to allay fears about radiation emitted by mobile phones. It says on its website there is no evidence to conclude that exposure to low level electromagnetic fields is harmful to humans." - 1

 

"It said accredited labs had found absorption of electromagnetic energy by the body at 5.74 watts per kilogram during tests" - 2

 

"The FCC limit is 1.6 watts per kilogram" - 3

 

 

My thoughts

I think it's a bit silly to say it's emitting too much EMF. The iPhone 12 was the first to have 5G so it could be a defect with the manufacturing, as 5.74 watts does seem a lot, and the FCC state 1.6 watts per kilogram is too much. Are legal limits too low or are our devices emitting too much EMF? Is the iPhone 12 emitting more than newer models of the iPhone, or maybe even other smartphones?

 

Sources

Source 1 -  https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-66795168

 

Source 2 - https://www.rfi.fr/en/business-and-tech/20230912-france-orders-apple-iphone-12-sales-halted-over-radiation

 

Source 3 - https://www.healthline.com/health/emf#EMFs-in-daily-life

 

[saltycaramel]

What a coincidence to announce this exactly during the iPhone 15 keynote, it almost looks like some regulatory body and some politician/minister wanted some publicity riding on the buzz of the most anticipated Apple event of the year. 

 

It wouldn't be the first and won't be the last, just this year we got buzz-riders the likes of:

- Intel announcing Thunderbolt 5

- Google leaking the whole Pixel 8

- China + Huawei timing the whole Kirin9000/Mate60 anti-sanctions psyop

- the usual dose of anti-iPhone FUD for market manipulation

- etc. 

 

Crazy things happen in the last few days before an iPhone launch, can't wait to witness more craziness next year!

 

Quote

 France have told Apple to stop selling the iPhone 12 

 

Good thing it was discontinued this week anyway.

[porina]

38 minutes ago, boxersteavee said:

as 5.74 watts does seem a lot, and the FCC state 1.6 watts per kilogram is too much

A big no here is do not try to compare EU requirements with FCC ones. Even if the value has the same name, the test methodology can be very different and they shouldn't be compared. The EU limit apparently is 4.0W, which is a lot closer to the reported value the regulator claims to have obtained.

 

21 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

Good thing it was discontinued this week anyway.

If this holds up the recall of every one ever sold is gonna hurt.

[jaslion]

43 minutes ago, porina said:

If this holds up the recall of every one ever sold is gonna hurt.

And the funnt thing with the eu is that these kinds of recalls often snowball into other countries too.

 

 

[saltycaramel]

Quote

The ANFR ordered Apple to stop selling the iPhone 12 in France. The agency also said it would send agents to retailers to ensure that the phone was no longer being sold. If Apple fails to act, the ANFR is prepared to recall all iPhone 12 phones currently being used in the country.

 

Apple defended the iPhone 12 on Wednesday, stating that the phone had been certified by multiple global radiation standards. Apple said in a statement sent to the ANFR that several in-house and third-party lab results showed that the phone complied with ANFR standards. The company announced that it would be contesting the agency’s findings and will continue to interact with the agency to establish compliance.

 

The ANFR’s SAR limits are already set ten times below the level where scientists found harmful effects, according to Professor Rodney Croft, the chair of the International Commission on Non-Ionizing Radiation Protection (ICNIRP), which determines global SAR standards. 

"From a health and safety point of view, it is not as if this is putting anyone at risk," Croft told Reuters. 

 

The iPhone 12’s radiation levels could be fixed with a software update, says France. The country’s junior minister for the digital economy, Jean-Noël Barrot, said that Apple must fix the issue within two weeks or face the threat of an iPhone 12 recall.

 

https://themessenger.com/tech/apple-defends-iphone-12-france-ban-halt-sales-radiation

 

Those agents will have a lot of work hunting for invisible discontinued iPhones 12. (doesn't the whole thing sound like a publicity stunt?)

 

Apple is strongly denying any wrongdoing.

 

Who am I gonna believe, the tech giant whose whole existence depends on the iPhone and avoiding this kind of blunders (and we're talking about a mature product line, this is not the iPhone 4), or the only regulatory agency in the whole world having discovered this discrepancy?

 

Anything is possible but for the time being I'm going to Occam's razor my way around this one. 

The timing of the announcement alone is ridiculous. 

[Dracarris]

41 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

the only regulatory agency in the whole world having discovered this discrepancy?

is kinda central here. Pretty sure Apple is able to RF test their devices properly before release to make sure they meet every standard relevant to the targeted countries (which in this case are EU standards, I guess?!). Worst case they'll have to reduce RF power with a firmware update.

[porina]

36 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

Who am I gonna believe, the tech giant whose whole existence depends on the iPhone and avoiding this kind of blunders (and we're talking about a mature product line, this is not the iPhone 4), or the only regulatory agency in the whole world having discovered this discrepancy?

What if I told you both could be right, and wrong at the same time?

 

I worked adjacent to approvals in past employment. Did some EMC but not SAR. You test at two different labs meeting the standards requirements, you will get two non-identical results. Development was done at an internal lab, with final certification done externally as a check. There will be sample to sample variations.

 

I'm sure Apple did the right tests and passed them when bringing the product to market. If they haven't got it already they will want to examine this new testing and see what the results look like compared to their historic results. They may already be re-running testing to double check nothing has changed over the years. It is normal for minor changes to be made to a product over its lifecycle, especially component substitutions according to availability.

[CarlBar]

2 hours ago, saltycaramel said:

Who am I gonna believe, the tech giant whose whole existence depends on the iPhone and avoiding this kind of blunders (and we're talking about a mature product line, this is not the iPhone 4), or the only regulatory agency in the whole world having discovered this discrepancy?

 

The Regulatory agency DuH. They have nothing to gain from lying, Apple does. Also outside of the US and the EU the regulations are less tight AFAIK so if anyone was going to find this it would be one of these.

 

More likely as Porina pointed out it's a component substitution issue or an aging issue rather than a deliberate act on Apple's part. But by default Apple is going to deny it because if they don't it will hit their stock price.

[Holmes108]

19 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

 

The Regulatory agency DuH. They have nothing to gain from lying, Apple does.

 

 I know nothing of this regulatory body, and don't have any opinion on this news story, but to suggest that they can't be corrupted in general is kinda funny.

[saltycaramel]

54 minutes ago, Holmes108 said:

 

I know nothing of this regulatory body, and don't have any opinion on this news story, but to suggest that they can't be corrupted in general is kinda funny.

Or even just have political gains by portraying themselves as knights in a shiny armor going after big tech or big banking or big XYZ or anything foreign. Happens all the time.

[StDragon]

SAR is a bullshit rating. It's non-ionizing radiation and these regulators need to be tarred and feather from any reach of authority.

https://www.reuters.com/technology/why-has-france-banned-sales-apples-iphone-12-2023-09-13/

 

[porina]

10 minutes ago, StDragon said:

https://www.reuters.com/technology/why-has-france-banned-sales-apples-iphone-12-2023-09-13/

Quote

The ANFR said it recently carried out random tests on 141 phones, including iPhone 12, bought from shops. In independent laboratory tests, two iPhone 12s did not comply with EU standards, the office of the Digital Minister told Reuters.

Smartphone radiation tests have so far led to 42 imposed sale stops in the country, it said.

They're not picking on Apple. This was a wide test of the market. So now the question is, is the lab they used doing something different from Apple (and others). These tests are not so black and white and there will be possible variations while meeting the nominal test requirements. That would be my guess, not any malice on their part.

[StDragon]

9 minutes ago, porina said:

They're not picking on Apple. This was a wide test of the market. So now the question is, is the lab they used doing something different from Apple (and others). These tests are not so black and white and there will be possible variations while meeting the nominal test requirements. That would be my guess, not any malice on their part.

It's a moot point. This isn't about EMC compliance with regards to RF interference and amplitude. No, this is about Specific Absorption Rate (SAR) thresholds which involves human health.

Again, it's bullshit. The amount of energy emitted by your cellphone won't even raise your body temp by one degree. It will not cause cancer.

If anyone can prove that RF non-ionizing radiation at these low power levels (amplitudes) can cause cancer, they will have discovered new physics and be worthy of a Nobel Prize in science.

Ain't happening. 

[dalekphalm]

It's a curious situation - maybe there's a testing methodology difference. Maybe there was a component substitution that caused the difference in results.

 

I want to learn more. But in general, even if what the ANFR says is true, all research says it's still perfectly safe for humans.

[Quackers101]

how much was it for the pacemaker situation?

and older iphone thread.

[Obioban]

Certainly seems like something they could address via firmware if it turns out the France regulators tested correctly. As in, I can adjust the power output of my wifi radios, and Apple has way more finite control over hardware than I do.

 

... france is a bit intense about this in general. Aren't they the country that requires every phone to include a headset in box, so you don't have to hold the phone to your head to talk?

 

Edit: yes

https://www.engadget.com/apple-iphone-12-france-earpods-included-122501246.html

[dilpickle]

9 hours ago, saltycaramel said:

 it almost looks like some regulatory body and some politician/minister wanted some publicity riding on the buzz of the most anticipated Apple event of the year.

 

I think that's exactly what this is.

[CarlBar]

6 hours ago, Holmes108 said:

 

 I know nothing of this regulatory body, and don't have any opinion on this news story, but to suggest that they can't be corrupted in general is kinda funny.

 

5 hours ago, saltycaramel said:

Or even just have political gains by portraying themselves as knights in a shiny armor going after big tech or big banking or big XYZ or anything foreign. Happens all the time.

 

First as allready pointed out this was just a routine randomised test. There's no singling out of apple going on here. I admit i didn't know that when i made my previous reply but worth remembering as it takes the wind out of both these arguments.

 

Second, i've pointed this out before but political jockeying from things like a regulatory agency in Europe just isn't a normal thing. I'm not gonna say it never happens, exceptions exist. But it's absolutely not a good automatic first assumption nor should it be.

 

Third, obviously anyone can be corrupted, but as their in the EU these results will be shared with other EU countries and they will check them, even if this was some corrupt action they'd get called on the error by everyone else in the EU super quickly.

 

2 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

It's a curious situation - maybe there's a testing methodology difference. Maybe there was a component substitution that caused the difference in results.

 

I want to learn more. But in general, even if what the ANFR says is true, all research says it's still perfectly safe for humans.

 

Could be aging, (if the hardwares been sat for a while or used as a display sample or somthing), in componentry, or some calibration machine used to check everything in the bits at the factory is out of whack, i have to assume there's some kind of control circuitry that regulates that stuff. If theres an issue there it could create knock on effects where the phone thinks it is in spec but actually isn't.

 

4 hours ago, StDragon said:

It's a moot point. This isn't about EMC compliance with regards to RF interference and amplitude. No, this is about Specific Absorption Rate (SAR) thresholds which involves human health.

Again, it's bullshit. The amount of energy emitted by your cellphone won't even raise your body temp by one degree. It will not cause cancer.

If anyone can prove that RF non-ionizing radiation at these low power levels (amplitudes) can cause cancer, they will have discovered new physics and be worthy of a Nobel Prize in science.

Ain't happening. 

 

And all of this is a moot point because it's the regulator that gets to set the standard. is it potentially a bullshit standard? Sure. But speaking personally i'd much rather a regulator be overly zealous than the opposite, and i don't think i need to point out how often in the past somthing that was considered perfectly safe by science at the time turned out not to be, (leaving aside actual deception like the leaded gasoline case).

[WolframaticAlpha]

10 hours ago, saltycaramel said:

Crazy things happen in the last few days before an iPhone launch, can't wait to witness more craziness next year

>Oh noes, someone tried to take some news space from my beloved iphone!!!!

 

 

[saltycaramel]

39 minutes ago, WolframaticAlpha said:

>Oh noes, someone tried to take some news space from my beloved iphone!!!!

 

 

 

I’m just observing a phenomenon.

 

A pretty cringey phenomenon if you ask me.

 

But, just like the cringey thumbnails on Youtube, it’s all part of the game. A game where the buzz generated by Apple events is like a dinner table with crumbs falling on the floor, and other less buzz-y companies showing up, like clockwork, to eat those crumbs.

[boxersteavee]

11 hours ago, porina said:

A big no here is do not try to compare EU requirements with FCC ones. Even if the value has the same name, the test methodology can be very different and they shouldn't be compared. The EU limit apparently is 4.0W, which is a lot closer to the reported value the regulator claims to have obtained.

Yeah, I should have done more research to find the EU regs but I was nearly at school (I did this on the train) and kinda rushed it... I'll do better in the future, we all start somewhere!

[CarlBar]

Another update on the story from the BBC. Apparently another EE agency has checked the french groups work and agrees it's acurratte. That and several other nations are now looking into the matter with a plan to test phones starting with apple, (to confirm french results), and broadening out to other brands afterwards as a furthar check.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66808376

[Paul Thexton]

Cool. Wonder if I can get a free upgrade to a 13 mini from my 12 mini if they’re forced to recall in the UK?

[WolframaticAlpha]

24 minutes ago, Paul Thexton said:

Cool. Wonder if I can get a free upgrade to a 13 mini from my 12 mini if they’re forced to recall in the UK?

I heard the battery life is slightly better. Can do with anything better than the meh battery life on my 12 mini.

 

Sadly I live in India so that ain't happening

[Paul Thexton]

1 minute ago, WolframaticAlpha said:

I heard the battery life is slightly better. Can do with anything better than the meh battery life on my 12 mini.

 

Sadly I live in India so that ain't happening

I haven’t ever found battery life to be a big problem for me but I guess I just use mine differently to everyone else or something. When first got it I was consistently getting 2 days between charges, it’s a bit less now but I’m planning on getting the battery swapped out eventually.