Apple has to stop selling the iPhone 12 in France due to too much EMF Radiation.

[StDragon]

5 hours ago, CarlBar said:

is it potentially a bullshit standard? Sure. But speaking personally i'd much rather a regulator be overly zealous than the opposite, and i don't think i need to point out how often in the past somthing that was considered perfectly safe by science at the time turned out not to be, (leaving aside actual deception like the leaded gasoline case).

Prove to me that magic crystals of protection don't ward off free roaming polar bears in Arizona.

 

what you're advocating for is a regulatory body crafting legislation to mandate everyone have magical crystals of protection at the taxpayers expense.

 

SAR isn't based on science. It's pseudoscience! AKA bullshit!!!

[RoseLuck462]

Looks like iPhone 12 owners should buy the latest model, they're radiation free!

[Forbidden Wafer]

4 hours ago, StDragon said:

SAR isn't based on science. It's pseudoscience! AKA bullshit!!!

That's incorrect. Limits are set based on high safety margins (up to 50x) from measured levels that caused observable side effects. And that choice is made due to chronic exposure and lack of long-term studies. 

 

You can see more info from ICNIRP. 

[HenrySalayne]

9 hours ago, saltycaramel said:

I’m just observing a phenomenon.

 

A pretty cringey phenomenon if you ask me.

 

But, just like the cringey thumbnails on Youtube, it’s all part of the game. A game where the buzz generated by Apple events is like a dinner table with crumbs falling on the floor, and other less buzz-y companies showing up, like clockwork, to eat those crumbs.

No, you are hallucinating a phenomenon.

The reality is that nobody cares any more.

[williamcll]

They should tune down the power rating and then sell a USB Antenna called the AppleBoost for people that are running into poor reception.

[Kisai]

18 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

It's a curious situation - maybe there's a testing methodology difference. Maybe there was a component substitution that caused the difference in results.

 

I want to learn more. But in general, even if what the ANFR says is true, all research says it's still perfectly safe for humans.

 

It's FAR more likely that the phones were not carrier-models and they used the same SIM cards in all the devices, because each carrier has a different radio spectrum license. That said, if they used a picocell (thus carrier-neutral) to actually do the test, that could also explain it, because US models of iphone 12 were different from rest-of-world models for 5G. So the radio might actually be looking at it's roaming database and trying everything before connecting to the "unknown" picocell.

 

But I can only speculate. Because if they just went out and bought all t-mobile models of everything to test, and then tested it 100m from a commercial tower, they won't get an accurate test.

 

Let's see (and hope the machine translation isn't terrible)

https://www.anfr.fr/liste-actualites/actualite/retrait-temporaire-du-marche-de-liphone-12-pour-non-conformite-de-ces-appareils-a-la-reglementation-europeenne

This is the testing methodology video, at the 2 minute mark it switches to german with french subs, so, uh... someone else will have to see if there is anything interesting there.

 

So my gut feeling is that ANFR likely went to several stores and asked them to hand over one model of everything they were selling, which included iphone 12's even though they would have had iphone 14's at this point.

 

https://www.anfr.fr/liste-actualites/actualite/retrait-temporaire-du-marche-de-liphone-12-informations-complementaires

Quote

In the immediate future , ANFR controllers will ensure that the iPhone 12 is effectively removed from all points of sale, in stores and online. The ANFR has 5 regional services in mainland France and two branches in the overseas departments where numerous agents authorized to carry out checks can act throughout the territory.

 

Next steps: within 15 days, Apple must propose corrective measures to the ANFR (specifically a remote software update) to lower the SAR values to the regulatory threshold or below. If necessary, the ANFR will ask the accredited laboratory within 15 days to re-evaluate the SAR values of the said phone. If these corrective measures make the phone compliant, the temporary withdrawal from the market is lifted. If this should not be the case, the ANFR will require Apple to recall all devices sold on the French market.

==

Products concerned: it should be noted that only the iPhone 12 was checked with a non-compliant SAR, the ANFR did not note any exceeding of the limits on the other Apple brand phones that it sampled. Notably, the iPhone 12 mini, iPhone 12 Pro and iPhone 12 Max comply with the requirements of the European market. The ANFR publishes all the results of its measurements in open data when the control procedures are completed, the results of the tests carried out on Apple equipment are available here:  https://data.anfr.fr/anfr/visualisation?id= ad8014ec-f631-450e-a259-799188714ef9&q=APPLE

 

I am unable to get that data link to work.

 

Given the time gap between the 12 and the 14, I'd expect Apple to push an OTA update to existing devices, and if anyone still wants to buy the regular 12 in a store, the device has to be updated before they leave the store/kiosk.

 

My theory here is that if these are the same chips in all the devices, then it's likely just a software bug in the "modem" software. 

 

 

[StDragon]

8 hours ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

That's incorrect. Limits are set based on high safety margins (up to 50x) from measured levels that caused observable side effects. And that choice is made due to chronic exposure and lack of long-term studies. 

 

You can see more info from ICNIRP. 

There is no long-term exposure "problem" with low power non-ionizing radiation.

 

This is the same level of pseudoscientific statistical modeling failure that led people to erroneously blame autism on vaccinations. 
 

Whatever data it is they have, it's fundamentally flawed. The physics have proven it.

 

I expect any day now to hear some nut job explain how 5G causes COVID19.

[suicidalfranco]

Clearly France is an angry android user trying to shit on Apple

[WolframaticAlpha]

15 hours ago, Paul Thexton said:

haven’t ever found battery life to be a big problem for me but I guess I just use mine differently to everyone else or something.

It is definitely bad, but I've grown to live with it by changing my charging habits. (I finally realised the value of wireless chargers) I place my phone on a qi pad before I leave and trickle charge in the night. 

 

On my previous one, I'd just charge it before going to sleep and it would be full before I left. 

 

I'd love a phone which lasts as long as my old nokia slider(3-4 days ez)

[Forbidden Wafer]

3 hours ago, StDragon said:

There is no long-term exposure "problem" with low power non-ionizing radiation.

Says you.

3 hours ago, StDragon said:

This is the same level of pseudoscientific statistical modeling failure that led people to erroneously blame autism on vaccinations. 

And how about Covid 19 causing severe clotting or myocarditis?

"Completely safe^TM", according to scientists rushing to get it out...
The reason we go the conservative route when it comes to health is that because every time we didn't take it, we ended up getting screwed up.

Thalidomide is the primary example everybody used to know.

3 hours ago, StDragon said:

Whatever data it is they have, it's fundamentally flawed. The physics have proven it.

Cancer due to direct genetic mutation, yes. Can't be done.
Exposure to high localized heat, that triggers some weird pathway in your body, that results in cancer or some other issue, physics haven't proven.

[StDragon]

32 minutes ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

Says you.

Say known physics. Want the Nobel Prize? Prove the fundamentals wrong.

 

32 minutes ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

And how about Covid 19 causing severe clotting or myocarditis?

That wasn't in reference to COVID19 vaccination. 
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/autism-vaccine-myth/

 

32 minutes ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

Exposure to high localized heat, that triggers some weird pathway in your body, that results in cancer or some other issue, physics haven't proven.

Bzzzztt. Bullshit. Please understand inverse-square law with regards to RF transmission.

Also, water is an awesome medium of thermal mass. The amount of cellphone power won't do shit. One minute of direct sunlight alone is more impactful in terms of thermal heat, and that's not even accounting for the fact UV is ionizing radiation on top of that.

[Mark Kaine]

On 9/14/2023 at 3:12 PM, StDragon said:

Again, it's bullshit. The amount of energy emitted by your cellphone won't even raise your body temp by one degree. It will not cause cancer.

no the radiation will. 

 

its not "bs" these limits are there for a reason and this kind of radiation poses a real risk to human health.

 

(it literally fries your brain!)

[Mark Kaine]

4 hours ago, StDragon said:

Say known physics. Want the Nobel Prize? Prove the fundamentals wrong

look this is exactly how you cant argue on the internet (or elsewhere)  saying "oh the physics" "but my math!"

 

again,  high powered radiation is a very well known (albeit less understood)  risk, and i don't need to "prove" it, because these regulations exist for this very reason.  the burden of prove is on you, therfore.  

 

saying health regulations are "bs" doesn't mean much if you cant prove it.

 

again health regulations exist for a reason and are typically not "bs" at all, they should probably be much more stringent instead though.

[Paul Thexton]

Regulations being BS or not is irrelevant really, they’re the current regulations therefore must be met.  

[StDragon]

1 hour ago, Mark Kaine said:

look this is exactly how you cant argue on the internet (or elsewhere)  saying "oh the physics" "but my math!"

Your willful ignorance is not my problem.

But for those not aware, ionizing radiation consists of nuclear (alpha, beta, and gamma) cosmic rays and UV at the higher end of the spectrum. Those emit packets of energy like tiny bullets that can strike chemical bonds and crack the molecule. DNA is one such chain. The damage is cumulative if not repaired properly by the cell. Depending on where the damage occurs, that can lead to transcription errors in mitosis. Also known as cancer.

Microwave frequencies and lower are non-ionizing radiation, therefore nothing occurs with cumulative exposure. However with enough amplitude, you can boil water. That's exactly what what happens in a microwave oven when you pump a kilowatt of energy into your frozen chicken dinner. The heat is what cooks food, not the radiation.

The human body will never receive the amount of energy to boil water from a cell phone. Also, with the incredible thermal mass of water in the human body, it's constantly being circulated by a four chamber pump known as the heart. You're a walking AIO water cooling loop, so it's impossible for there to be heat buildup. In fact, your body will radiate more heat out in the IR band than the microwave radiation is receives from external sources. Metabolism is your primary source of generated heat.

[HenrySalayne]

1 hour ago, StDragon said:

Your willful ignorance is not my problem.

But for those not aware, ionizing radiation consists of nuclear (alpha, beta, and gamma) cosmic rays and UV at the higher end of the spectrum. Those emit packets of energy like tiny bullets that can strike chemical bonds and crack the molecule. DNA is one such chain. The damage is cumulative if not repaired properly by the cell. Depending on where the damage occurs, that can lead to transcription errors in mitosis. Also known as cancer.

Microwave frequencies and lower are non-ionizing radiation, therefore nothing occurs with cumulative exposure. However with enough amplitude, you can boil water. That's exactly what what happens in a microwave oven when you pump a kilowatt of energy into your frozen chicken dinner. The heat is what cooks food, not the radiation.

The human body will never receive the amount of energy to boil water from a cell phone. Also, with the incredible thermal mass of water in the human body, it's constantly being circulated by a four chamber pump known as the heart. You're a walking AIO water cooling loop, so it's impossible for there to be heat buildup. In fact, your body will radiate more heat out in the IR band than the microwave radiation is receives from external sources. Metabolism is your primary source of generated heat.

Yes, radio waves (up to THz) don't have enough energy to rip apart chemical bonds.

However, metabolic processes are operating in a narrow temperature range and these processes change with temperature. At 42°C the first proteins in your body will start to denaturise.

Considering that the energy absorbed by your body is not uniform, it's not the worst idea to set a safety limit. With the sheer amount of different compounds in our bodies, it's probably almost impossible to verify this limit for each and every one. So there is probably quite a bit of margin on this limit.

 

Nevertheless, this limit has been proven to not be a technical limitation. Manufacturers could just make sure their products actually meet the specification.

[StDragon]

1 hour ago, HenrySalayne said:

With the sheer amount of different compounds in our bodies, it's probably almost impossible to verify this limit for each and every one. So there is probably quite a bit of margin on this limit.

 

Nevertheless, this limit has been proven to not be a technical limitation. Manufacturers could just make sure their products actually meet the specification.

If the studies were based on science, but they're not. They're arbitrary numbers pulled from someone's ass because.... "caution".

Yeah, based on what evidence?! There is nothing conclusive to prove causality. Yet we're bathed in more EMI than ever before, yet there hasn't been any correlative increase cancers in numbers because of it. WiFi, cellphone adaption, Bluetooth earbuds (as close as they get), you name it.

This picture sums up governing bodies inability to touch on this topic with honesty to the public. Dare anyone touch on the truth of it?!


 

[starsmine]

10 hours ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

Says you.

Says Science and the currently understood laws of physics.

Its literally that you need enough energy in the wave to have packets with enough power to ionize atoms. 
That is literally why the terms are ionizing radiation and nonionizing. 

EMF is an issue... for OTHER electronics because of noise, not because it damages anything, just noise and errors. 

Visible light is more "damaging" then any EMF wave is. 

[RejZoR]

7 hours ago, HenrySalayne said:

Yes, radio waves (up to THz) don't have enough energy to rip apart chemical bonds.

However, metabolic processes are operating in a narrow temperature range and these processes change with temperature. At 42°C the first proteins in your body will start to denaturise.

Considering that the energy absorbed by your body is not uniform, it's not the worst idea to set a safety limit. With the sheer amount of different compounds in our bodies, it's probably almost impossible to verify this limit for each and every one. So there is probably quite a bit of margin on this limit.

 

Nevertheless, this limit has been proven to not be a technical limitation. Manufacturers could just make sure their products actually meet the specification.

Thing is, your body only reaches those temperatures when something is seriously wrong and you're experiencing extreme fever. 42°C is extreme fever. Usually when it's really bad you have 39-40°C, but most of the time fever is up to 39°C as max and people usually take something like Aspirin already at this point which will lower the temperature.

[Mark Kaine]

On 9/15/2023 at 12:51 AM, StDragon said:

SAR isn't based on science. It's pseudoscience! AKA bullshit!!!

 

i will reiterate: 

 

On 9/15/2023 at 9:47 PM, Mark Kaine said:

it literally fries your brain!

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4440565/

 

 

that's the actual issue. 

 

also "microwave" doesn't mean microwave oven (that's what people think when they hear microwave,  but there's much more dangerous "microwave" radiation)  and the effects of this aren't fully understood yet,  period. 

 

And "but my physics" is an actual bs argument,  that's also why these regulations exist because we do *not* know the effects of phone radiation *fully*.

 

We do know its potentially harmful though,  so these regulations make a lot of sense and neither you or anyone on this forum has any authority to say these limits are "too low".

 

 

[Dracarris]

8 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

it literally fries your brain!

So does sunlight. In principle everything what you say is true, but even if we go over the current limits by several x, we are so far below the amounts of thermal energy that everyone receives by basically living and going outside, with the added danger of receiving UV radiation that is actually dangerous..

 

No cell phone fries your brain, even if it pumps all of its antennas at full-blast.

[freeagent]

There is not one cell phone on the market that is good for your health. Every single cell phone made is bad for you.

[StDragon]

12 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

 

i will reiterate: 

 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4440565/

 

 

that's the actual issue. 

 

also "microwave" doesn't mean microwave oven (that's what people think when they hear microwave,  but there's much more dangerous "microwave" radiation)  and the effects of this aren't fully understood yet,  period.

 

 "The biological effects of MW radiation fall into two types: thermal and non-thermal effects [2,3]. Both are present, with thermal effects prominent in the case of high-power and high-frequency MW radiation and non-thermal effects predominant in the case of low-power MW radiation [4]. MW radiation has multi-faceted effects on many systems within an organism, including the nervous [5-7], endocrine [8], cardiovascular [9], immune [10,11], reproductive [12-14] and hematopoietic [15] systems. The brain always requires a high rate of oxygen and energy consumption to maintain regular functions. Therefore, this organ is sensitive to non-infectious stimuli such as ionizing radiation and hypoxia"

Already the article is full of shit. MW radiation is non-ionizing.

Depending on the MW frequency, it has a wavelength of 12cm to 32cm. Ants are so small that you can't cook them in a MW oven. Unless you clump them together in one mass to absorb the energy as thermal.

That means cells and DNA are not effected unless they're cooked with thermal energy. And therein lies the rub, tissue doesn't remotely (pun intended) receive nearly enough energy to raise localized temps beyond 1 degree.

[DildorTheDecent]

>France

 

Stopped reading right there. France and its people are batshit insane.

[Paul Thexton]

France has apparently approved a software patch from Apple from the issue to bring the phones back in to regulatory compliance

 

https://www.macrumors.com/2023/09/29/apple-software-update-approved-iphone-12-france/