Tesla's Secret Range Complaint Suppression Team

[rcmaehl]

Summary

Tesla's overly optimistic range estimates caused consumers to their EVs were malfunctioning, so much so they created a secret team to cancel service appointments.

 

Quotes

Quote

Tesla employees had been instructed to thwart any customers complaining about poor driving range from bringing their vehicles in for service. Last summer, the company quietly created a “Diversion Team”... cancel as many range-related appointments as possible. The... carmaker deployed the team because its service centers were inundated with appointments from owners who had expected better... based on the... estimates and the projections displayed by the in-dash range meters. Some employees celebrated canceling service appointments by... striking a metal xylophone, triggering applause from coworkers. The team often closed hundreds of cases a week and... were tracked on their average number of diverted appointments per day. Managers told the employees that they were saving Tesla about $1,000 for every canceled appointment. Tesla created the groundswell of complaints... by hyping the range of its... EVs, raising consumer expectations beyond what the cars can deliver.  Tesla... began exaggerating its vehicles’ potential driving distance. The company decided... to write algorithms for its range meter that would show drivers “rosy” projections for the distance it could travel on full. When the battery fell below 50%..., the algorithm would show drivers more realistic projections. A... recent study found that three Tesla models averaged 26% below their advertised ranges.

 

My thoughts

While this has been known in the EV space for a while, I'm not sure people realized just how much Tesla was exaggerating. I'm pretty sure every Tesla owner knew to use the Navigation range when going places due the clusters lies. Honestly, range overestimating is a detriment to EV adoption. The only automaker that I know does this well from firsthand experience is Hyundai/Kia. I have never had a Kia EV, from the 2015 Soul EV to the new EV6 not give me more range than it estimated unless I completely hot-rodded the car the entire battery capacity. 

 

Sources

Reuters (Quote Source)

The Verge

Ars Technica

[Stahlmann]

5 minutes ago, rcmaehl said:

Some employees celebrated canceling service appointments by... striking a metal xylophone, triggering applause from coworkers. The team often closed hundreds of cases a week and... were tracked on their average number of diverted appointments per day. Managers told the employees that they were saving Tesla about $1,000 for every canceled appointment.

That straight up sounds like some fucking "Wolf of Wall Street"-like movie script... But yeah, the longer i'm thinking about getting an EV in the future, the more i steer away from Tesla. They were great while they were among the first and only options, but nowadays the competition doesn't sleep. Especially Hyundai is a favourite atm.

[rcmaehl]

3 minutes ago, Stahlmann said:

That straight up sounds like some fucking "Wolf of Wall Street"-like movie script...

Sales, or in this case anti-sales, teams are just weird. I promise you.

[Spotty]

Topic moved to Off Topic. This is related to the automotive industry and does not have a strong relation to tech.

[DrMacintosh]

I have to wonder, is Tesla actually lying about the range of the EVs or are they doing what literally everyone else does when it comes to phone/laptop battery life? Sure it can last 18 hours watching videos. But once you fire up Final Cut Pro the battery is going to drain pretty quickly. Car range is determined by speed, temperature, and if cabin features like AC/Heat are on. Gas cars have this same problem, though on a less dramatic scale. 

[porina]

Some degree of error is reasonable since there will always be variables that can't be kept under control, such as traffic conditions and weather for example. But to intentionally mislead isn't a good look.

[Stahlmann]

1 minute ago, rcmaehl said:

Sales, or in this case anti-sales, teams are just weird. I promise you.

I do work in sales and yes, my colleagues congratulate sometimes if i get in a good order, with a handshake or a should pat. But i have never seen people ringing bells, striking xylophones and stuff like that. Is that some "too american for europeans to understand" kind of thing?

[Stahlmann]

2 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

I have to wonder, is Tesla actually lying about the range of the EVs or are they doing what literally everyone else does when it comes to phone/laptop battery life? Sure it can last 18 hours watching videos. But once you fire up Final Cut Pro the battery is going to drain pretty quickly. Car range is determined by speed, temperature, and if cabin features like AC/Heat are on. Gas cars have this same problem, though on a less dramatic scale. 

If i understand it correctly the problem is not that the vehicle spec sheet is wrong, but that the estimated range in the tachometer is wrong and people get stranded.

[porina]

1 minute ago, DrMacintosh said:

Car range is determined by speed, temperature, and if cabin features like AC/Heat are on. Gas cars have this same problem, though on a less dramatic scale. 

My (petrol) car gives an estimated range based on recent driving conditions. If recent mpg is low, estimated range drops. If recent mpg goes up, estimated range goes up. It can be amusing seeing the estimated range go up as I drive on a long trip, since I get worse economy when leaving urban areas than on the highway.

 

Defaulting to best case conditions may be on the optimistic side, and a more typical average is probably more useful. But then, they'd get some complaints the indicated range on a full charge is less than advertised.

 

[DrMacintosh]

11 minutes ago, Stahlmann said:

the problem is not that the vehicle spec sheet is wrong, but that the estimated range in the tachometer is wrong and people get stranded.

If a Tesla never updates its remaining range, that's a problem. The car should realize that as it ages it will loose range (which I believe they already do) and the car should also realize that based on speed and the use of cabin features, it will loose range. Since I'm 90% sure a Tesla will do both of these things, I'm cautious to blame the car. Maybe their range calculations can be updated to check the voltages more often.

 

On the other hand, It is well known that people are stupid and will ignore their gas gauges in regular cars and get stranded on the highway. I don't see any reason why those same people would not also own Teslas and are simply ignoring what their vehicle is telling them. 

 

As I'm getting older, I'm realizing more and more that users are the vast majority of the problem. 

[Stahlmann]

1 minute ago, DrMacintosh said:

If a Tesla never updates its remaining range, that's a problem. The car should realize that as it ages it will loose range (which I believe they already do) and the car should also realize that based on speed and the use of cabin features, it will loose range. Since I'm 90% sure a Tesla will do both of these things, I'm cautious to blame the car. Maybe their range calculations can be updated to check the voltages more often.

I also don't think this is about remaining battery life, but that the car doesn't properly interpret current driving behavior and then change the remaining mileage accordingly in the range gauge.

 

1 minute ago, DrMacintosh said:

On the other hand, It is well known that people are stupid and will ignore their gas gauges in regular cars and get stranded on the highway. I don't see any reason why those same people would not also own Teslas and are simply ignoring what their vehicle is telling them. 

Hard to argue with that. But ignoring the gauge and getting wrong information are two different things.

[porina]

10 minutes ago, Stahlmann said:

I do work in sales and yes, my colleagues congratulate sometimes if i get in a good order, with a handshake or a should pat. But i have never seen people ringing bells, striking xylophones and stuff like that. Is that some "too american for europeans to understand" kind of thing?

In my past job I had to visit call centres quite often in UK and EU. I think I've only seen one UK site where they celebrate notable sales in a noisy way, which didn't happen while I was there. Team leaders usually go for other incentives to try and get performance, more typically low value goods.

 

9 minutes ago, Stahlmann said:

If i understand it correctly the problem is not that the vehicle spec sheet is wrong, but that the estimated range in the tachometer is wrong and people get stranded.

From the OP's quote:

Quote

The company decided... to write algorithms for its range meter that would show drivers “rosy” projections for the distance it could travel on full. When the battery fell below 50%..., the algorithm would show drivers more realistic projections.

So on a long trip, you might have to stop earlier than you might think as the predictions get more accurate at the lower end. It is not like you suddenly run out of range and get stranded, but you may be stopping earlier than you planned at the start.

 

I'd add, every (petrol) car I've owned has never had an accurate fuel indicator. They're always non-linear, moving more slowly at the top than at the bottom. In my current car, I typically get 350-400 miles out of a tank before I refill. On a full tank, the needle doesn't drop below max for the first 100 miles. It drops down to indicated 75% around 200 miles in, which to me is about half the typical range. I know if I refill at indicated half tank, it is 20L out of a rated 35L tank, so indicated half is less than half in practice. Some of this error may be that fuel is normally "overfilled" compared to the rated capacity. Anyway, point of this is that you get used to quirks of a car. I'd use miles done on a tank as a better indicator than the fuel display. If the warning light comes on, I'll be going to refill sooner than later.

 

Still, if I see a range that is consistently reporting higher than in practice, I would think something is wrong with the car. But if I see a more realistic estimate that is lower than the marketing hype, that could also be perceived as something wrong. Given cars can be online, I think they could take more external factors into consideration, such as live traffic conditions, weather, and even the driver's driving style. The display would then be something like "an estimate based on current conditions" so people know it isn't the maximum in best case conditions.

[Spotty]

22 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

I have to wonder, is Tesla actually lying about the range of the EVs or are they doing what literally everyone else does when it comes to phone/laptop battery life? Sure it can last 18 hours watching videos. But once you fire up Final Cut Pro the battery is going to drain pretty quickly. Car range is determined by speed, temperature, and if cabin features like AC/Heat are on. Gas cars have this same problem, though on a less dramatic scale. 

According to the reuters article, what was happening was the car range estimate was intentionally programmed to give extremely optimistic range estimates when the battery was near full capacity and then after it reached about half capacity it will correct itself to show a truer estimation. For example it would initially show 400 miles range, after you drive 150-200 miles it will start correcting the estimate to show a truer estimate causing estimated range to drop pretty aggressively as it tries to catch up to the true estimated range. The Teslas they tested were overestimating their range by 26% on average.

 

The idea is supposedly when people get in the car and start driving, often from a full or near full charge, they'll see very impressive (false) range estimates and get the false impression that Tesla's have greater range than they really do. Most people won't drive hundreds of miles in a single trip on a regular basis so they'll only ever see the false range estimates, and if they do go on a longer trip and range starts dropping quicker than it should as it tries to correct the estimate they will just put it down to things like driving more aggressively or it's cause they had the heater on or cold weather. If people noticed that the range estimates were wrong and tried to contact Tesla to get it serviced thinking there was a problem with the car Tesla's "diversion team" were cancelling the service visits and were gaslighting customers in to thinking there wasn't a problem.

 

 

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-batteries-range/

Quote

Tesla years ago began exaggerating its vehicles’ potential driving distance – by rigging their range-estimating software. The company decided about a decade ago, for marketing purposes, to write algorithms for its range meter that would show drivers “rosy” projections for the distance it could travel on a full battery, according to a person familiar with an early design of the software for its in-dash readouts.

Then, when the battery fell below 50% of its maximum charge, the algorithm would show drivers more realistic projections for their remaining driving range, this person said. To prevent drivers from getting stranded as their predicted range started declining more quickly, Teslas were designed with a “safety buffer,” allowing about 15 miles (24 km) of additional range even after the dash readout showed an empty battery, the source said.

 

Quote

Ponsin contacted Tesla and booked a service appointment in California. He later received two text messages, telling him that “remote diagnostics” had determined his battery was fine, and then: “We would like to cancel your visit.”

What Ponsin didn’t know was that Tesla employees had been instructed to thwart any customers complaining about poor driving range from bringing their vehicles in for service. Last summer, the company quietly created a “Diversion Team” in Las Vegas to cancel as many range-related appointments as possible.

The Austin, Texas-based electric carmaker deployed the team because its service centers were inundated with appointments from owners who had expected better performance based on the company’s advertised estimates and the projections displayed by the in-dash range meters of the cars themselves, according to several people familiar with the matter.

 

[Holmes108]

1 hour ago, porina said:

 

 

I'd add, every (petrol) car I've owned has never had an accurate fuel indicator. They're always non-linear, moving more slowly at the top than at the bottom.

 

100% true of the gas gauge on every car I've had. One explanation I heard for this due to a gas tank being tapered towards the bottom. I do question this reasoning though, as I'd expect that to be relatively trivial to account for.

 

The KM's remaining indicator is also fairly inaccurate, and constantly in flux. I also find the readout disappears entirely once I'm below 20-30kms remaining (arguably when you'd need it the most lol), probably due to them not wanting you to count on it.

 

Edit: On the subject, as long as the estimates in a Tesla are always "optimistic" as opposed to outright impossible, I don't see it as a huge deal,or that different from business as usual at least, even if I'm not a huge fan of the practice.

[wanderingfool2]

1 hour ago, DrMacintosh said:

I have to wonder, is Tesla actually lying about the range of the EVs or are they doing what literally everyone else does when it comes to phone/laptop battery life? Sure it can last 18 hours watching videos. But once you fire up Final Cut Pro the battery is going to drain pretty quickly. Car range is determined by speed, temperature, and if cabin features like AC/Heat are on. Gas cars have this same problem, though on a less dramatic scale. 

More I think to do with range anxiety.

 

If you have 400 mile range, and tell people it's 440 mile on their dashboard when they are driving 150 miles to their destination and 150 miles back; they will be less worried about the "will I make it" mentality that follows EV.  (It then also moves to people to the trip planner in the Tesla).  Compared to the ones that have 400 mile range, but present the 350 miles...you will get a lot of people who are hesitant about making longer journeys despite both vehicles having the same range.

 

I don't necessarily think they are "lying" about range, they are just taking the optimistic estimate as well (assuming level terrain, or more optimal speeds).  It's similar to their EPA estimates; they do the full fleet of EPA tests which results in the higher EPA (despite in real world scenario not many people have that)...this is compared to other manufacturers who do a more minimal test which results in a poorer EPA...despite some of the vehicles having pretty much the same range as a Tesla.

 

37 minutes ago, Spotty said:

If people noticed that the range estimates were wrong and tried to contact Tesla to get it serviced thinking there was a problem with the car Tesla's "diversion team" were cancelling the service visits and were gaslighting customers in to thinking there wasn't a problem.

I mean it's not really gaslighting if there wasn't a problem with the vehicle.  It's simply that Tesla chose to do a more optimistic estimate, all of my vehicles I've driven rarely get their milage that's on the dash...especially when I have the mini-van full of people.

 

Having service appointments for something they know is not an issue with the vehicle would just be a general waste of resources.

 

44 minutes ago, Spotty said:

The idea is supposedly when people get in the car and start driving, often from a full or near full charge, they'll see very impressive (false) range estimates and get the false impression that Tesla's have greater range than they really do

Consider the following though, you buy a Tesla that has an EPA of 400 miles (gov't regulated test), you hop into the car and it gives a realistic range based on the conditions and driving style and it says 350 miles and then the next time you drive it estimates lets say like 300.  I bet they would get a lot more people booking service calls that way or then you would start getting the opposing article of Tesla misleading consumers by not selling vehicles that meet the EPA range.

 

The issue here becomes how do you consider calculating range, and what effects does it have on people while driving.  Range anxiety is one of the biggest issues that you have with people driving EV's...and not even with people who are thinking about adopting it.  It exists within people who own EV's as well...there are people who worry that despite doing like 200 miles round trip and being able to make it comfortably, they will still find a charging destination if they have think they will have only 25% left...despite being able to make it.