I think NVIDIA is just miking peoples wallets!

[Plermpel]

Hi guys,

 

I bought a 3090 TUF on launch for 1550$ and thought it was expensive back then.

But now in my opinion NVIDIAs pricing is just unreasonable!

They claim that it isn't possible to produce GPUs at that price anymore but considering that

A770s die is abou 400mm² on 6nm TSMC and 4090 is about 600mm² on 4nm TSMC,

that is just bullshit!

Assuming that the overall PCB parts for VRM and so on cost about 100$ more than of a A770

Assuming that the the cooler costs about 50$ more.

 

Then assuming that they calculate about 30% profit margin.

Not even considered, that Intel is most likeley not selling their GPU with loss.

 

It would mean that TSMC is charging more than 4 times more for the 4nm node than for the 6nm.

 

And those are rookie numbers.

 

I just can't belive that!

 

The card is 2400€ inculding tax, where I live, that is insane! My used 2015 BMW 5 series allmost fully quipted,

didn't even cost 6 times!

 

Where will that go? At 2000$, I would have boght the card, but as a quite wealthy elictrical engineer in europe,

I just don't have the money to buy that card, and even if, I don't wan't to.

 

Is it that future that high end hardware is something like a supercar, that only rhich people can afford.

 

Are you going to buy the card?

 

What are you thinking about all that scenario. I just see NVIDIA trying to gain back their stock losses after the crypto crash.

[fuzz0r]

If people keep paying what they charge, they'll keep raising prices.

[ZetZet]

Yea well the die size is not all that's big about the 4090. It has more and faster VRAM, bigger cooler and also Nvidia is trying to make a profit while Intel is likely losing money on the A770.

 

We are simply in a situation where high-end gaming is a hobby and it has hobby prices. Nvidia knows that. 

[ToboRobot]

If gamers stop buying nVidia cards, will they just switch all those orders to data centre and AI/ML cards and make more money?

[Kopaka]

nvidia does more than buy the parts and put them together, there's so much more to it than the raw material cost. I don't disagree it's quite expensive, but the 4090 is the high high end, it IS intended for those who buy supercars or for businesses.

[Proud Cipher]

When the GPU shortage struck, NVIDIA smelled blood in the water. They got a taste of what people are willing to pay for graphics cards now, and despite the shortage finally receding they are hungry for more and are testing to see if we'll take the bait. It's only gonna get worse if we buy those overpriced space heaters they call the 4000 series. 

[Origami Cactus]

4 minutes ago, Kopaka said:

nvidia does more than buy the parts and put them together, there's so much more to it than the raw material cost. I don't disagree it's quite expensive, but the 4090 is the high high end, it IS intended for those who buy supercars or for businesses.

People keep forgetting that Nvidia Titan V and Titan Z went for 3000$, now that they changed the titan line into the 90 line and halved the price suddenly there is a problem.

The matter of fact is that a 3070 is more than enough for gaming already, even at 4k, so anything higher than is a luxury.

[Dedayog]

13 minutes ago, Plermpel said:

Hi guys,

 

I bought a 3090 TUF on launch for 1550$ and thought it was expensive back then.

But now in my opinion NVIDIAs pricing is just unreasonable!

They claim that it isn't possible to produce GPUs at that price anymore but considering that

A770s die is abou 400mm² on 6nm TSMC and 4090 is about 600mm² on 4nm TSMC,

that is just bullshit!

Assuming that the overall PCB parts for VRM and so on cost about 100$ more than of a A770

Assuming that the the cooler costs about 50$ more.

 

Then assuming that they calculate about 30% profit margin.

Not even considered, that Intel is most likeley not selling their GPU with loss.

 

It would mean that TSMC is charging more than 4 times more for the 4nm node than for the 6nm.

 

And those are rookie numbers.

 

I just can't belive that!

 

The card is 2400€ inculding tax, where I live, that is insane! My used 2015 BMW 5 series allmost fully quipted,

didn't even cost 6 times!

 

Where will that go? At 2000$, I would have boght the card, but as a quite wealthy elictrical engineer in europe,

I just don't have the money to buy that card, and even if, I don't wan't to.

 

Is it that future that high end hardware is something like a supercar, that only rhich people can afford.

 

Are you going to buy the card?

 

What are you thinking about all that scenario. I just see NVIDIA trying to gain back their stock losses after the crypto crash.

Sweet another misinformed thread about the 4090.  Price per frame is actually less than previous gens.  Yes, it's expensive, but you're getting MUCH MORE than the 3xxxx or 2xxx series gave you.  If you want to be angry, be mad at Nvidia for the last 3 years, not the 4090.

 

"The card is 2400€ inculding tax, where I live, that is insane! My used 2015 BMW 5 series allmost fully quipted,

didn't even cost 6 times!"

 

WTF does this even mean?   5 series BMW used to mean a sophisticated driver.  Guess not anymore

 

 

 

[Jeppes]

You dont do 60+% profit margin if there is competition. AMD profits from this too and the idiots in charge of regulating should open up patents to bring in competition.

[Plermpel]

10 minutes ago, Dedayog said:

"The card is 2400€ inculding tax, where I live, that is insane! My used 2015 BMW 5 series allmost fully quipted,

didn't even cost 6 times!"

 

WTF does this even mean?  

It means I bought a 280bhp BMW 5 Series last year, with glas roof, all leather, M package inside and outside and it was 14000€.

 

 

Look I understand that the performace leap is enourmos, and the price/performance ratio is still somewhat OK, but it never happened until now, that they just ignore the past, it is as if the 4000 Series  just is a 3095 and a 3095Ti, usually you get a better GPU for about the same price as the last.

I mean good for them, that they managed to leap the performance that much but it's still just unreasonalbe.

[Middcore]

Of course they are. They want to make as much money as possible. They saw how much people were willing to spend to get a GPU from a scalper during the shortages, it was only natural they would see if they could get people to spend that much to get a card directly from them.

 

Don't like it, don't buy. That's the only way they'll change. 

[Blademaster91]

When people bought whatever Nvidia charged during the shortages and crypto boom, of course they're going to charge whatever they want.

Also  Nvidia is making 50% to 60% profit margins,it seems like EVGA got out at the right time as Nvidia is undercutting the AIB's and some AIB cards are going for over $2,000 usd.

[Blademaster91]

17 minutes ago, Origami Cactus said:

People keep forgetting that Nvidia Titan V and Titan Z went for 3000$, now that they changed the titan line into the 90 line and halved the price suddenly there is a problem.

The matter of fact is that a 3070 is more than enough for gaming already, even at 4k, so anything higher than is a luxury.

It is a problem because the top tier consumer card used to be a 80Ti card for around $1000-1200, now the top tier card is at least $1600, closer to $2000. Now the true 80 tier card is over $1000, its a problem when there isn't any competition and Nvidia keeps moving products up the stack yet people keeping paying at ridiculous prices.

I also doubt a 3070 is capable of any decent framerates at 4k, its a 1440p card at best, especially with newer titles using more VRAM.

[HeyYouOK?]

35 minutes ago, NastyFlytrap said:

I find it hilarious that i've been bitching about this since 20 series, and people are still only suspecting whats up

Fuck the fucking greedy corporations. If AMD or Intel was on top, they'd be pulling the same shit. 
We should tear them into a billion small companies ffs
What is this motherfucking corporatocracy dystopia bullshit

huh? A billion small companies that do what? Please enlighten me, I'm genuinely curious.

[Jurrunio]

It's up in the "no one competes with them" territory, so no surprise here. At least they didnt try to pull an R9 Fury, essentially trying to upsell their R9 290 replacement for $1000 just like the Nvidia GTX Titan (Kepler) when the GTX Titan came first and perform similarly.

[Butterfingers]

You assume alot but you have no inside information.  Ofcouse they ask alot more as Intel who has to get people to buy their product and build their name.

Dont tell Intel is great with market value per dollar on the CPU market.  Now ofcourse you pay for the guarantee and the early adopting for the newest products. Also in todays world everything is more expensive as lets say a year ago.  We all know they try to make alot of money thats nothing new. But if you want the best stuff you pay top dollar. A Ferrari or Lamborghini isnt that % per dollar much more expensive to build either. But its the name and the result you choose to pick one.

[Deadpool2onBlu-Ray]

1 hour ago, Plermpel said:

Hi guys,

 

I bought a 3090 TUF on launch for 1550$ and thought it was expensive back then.

But now in my opinion NVIDIAs pricing is just unreasonable!

They claim that it isn't possible to produce GPUs at that price anymore but considering that

A770s die is abou 400mm² on 6nm TSMC and 4090 is about 600mm² on 4nm TSMC,

that is just bullshit!

Assuming that the overall PCB parts for VRM and so on cost about 100$ more than of a A770

Assuming that the the cooler costs about 50$ more.

 

Then assuming that they calculate about 30% profit margin.

Not even considered, that Intel is most likeley not selling their GPU with loss.

 

It would mean that TSMC is charging more than 4 times more for the 4nm node than for the 6nm.

 

And those are rookie numbers.

 

I just can't belive that!

 

The card is 2400€ inculding tax, where I live, that is insane! My used 2015 BMW 5 series allmost fully quipted,

didn't even cost 6 times!

 

Where will that go? At 2000$, I would have boght the card, but as a quite wealthy elictrical engineer in europe,

I just don't have the money to buy that card, and even if, I don't wan't to.

 

Is it that future that high end hardware is something like a supercar, that only rhich people can afford.

 

Are you going to buy the card?

 

What are you thinking about all that scenario. I just see NVIDIA trying to gain back their stock losses after the crypto crash.

They will lower the price if they don't sell enough of them, which if I had to guess they will so it's kind of moot. The two 4080's might see prices drop quite quickly however

[SinistralFern23]

NVidia is screwing everyone over with the 4000 series. No one should buy them.

[dizmo]

If you can't pay to play at the top end, don't look at the top end. It's not there for the very day user, it's there for those who want the best of the best. Tons of people can afford this class of card; I know a dentist who just put in an order for 4 of them. I have friends who have already said they'll be buying them. The price, honestly, isn't that insane, especially when you compare it to other hobbies; almost all of the mountain bikes I've bought over the past decade have been in excess of $8,000, for instance.

 

As the hobby becomes more popular, there will be a larger pool of people with deep pockets, and those people will get the top end hardware.

This shouldn't surprise you.

 

Guessing costing is a pointless endeavour and doesn't include R&D costs. A product is not simply the BOM cost.

 

If you don't want it, why are you bitching about it?

 

1 hour ago, ToboRobot said:

If gamers stop buying nVidia cards, will they just switch all those orders to data centre and AI/ML cards and make more money?

Doubtful. You'll never get the entire community to stop buying NVidia cards, so it's kind of a moot point.

1 hour ago, Origami Cactus said:

People keep forgetting that Nvidia Titan V and Titan Z went for 3000$, now that they changed the titan line into the 90 line and halved the price suddenly there is a problem.

The matter of fact is that a 3070 is more than enough for gaming already, even at 4k, so anything higher than is a luxury.

Exactly this.

Though I'd even go as far as saying gaming as a whole is a luxury. You don't need a gaming computer. IMO if you're on a super strict budget you should be buying a console Or nothing at all and spending money on improving your life situation, but people get butthurt when I say logical things like that.

1 hour ago, Jeppes said:

You dont do 60+% profit margin if there is competition. AMD profits from this too and the idiots in charge of regulating should open up patents to bring in competition.

It's not so much that no one can come into the market, it's the cost involved is so high and the profits take ages to recoup, so it just doesn't make a ton of business sense. It doesn't have anything to do with regulation, nor should it.

53 minutes ago, Plermpel said:

It means I bought a 280bhp BMW 5 Series last year, with glas roof, all leather, M package inside and outside and it was 14000€.

 

 

Look I understand that the performace leap is enourmos, and the price/performance ratio is still somewhat OK, but it never happened until now, that they just ignore the past, it is as if the 4000 Series  just is a 3095 and a 3095Ti, usually you get a better GPU for about the same price as the last.

I mean good for them, that they managed to leap the performance that much but it's still just unreasonalbe.

He was implying that it's not at all comparable and was a pointless attempt at a flex.

Not sure if you've actually watched any of the reviews, but this is one of the largest performance gains we've ever seen.

53 minutes ago, Middcore said:

Of course they are. They want to make as much money as possible. They saw how much people were willing to spend to get a GPU from a scalper during the shortages, it was only natural they would see if they could get people to spend that much to get a card directly from them.

 

Don't like it, don't buy. That's the only way they'll change. 

I'd note though that not buying it and hoping it'll change is a really poor way to look at things, because it won't have enough sway to make any kind of real change and you'll be left angry and frustrated. It's far better to just accept that prices are going up, and either buy used hardware at lower prices, or suck it up and pay a little more for the hobby you enjoy.

44 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

It is a problem because the top tier consumer card used to be a 80Ti card for around $1000-1200, now the top tier card is at least $1600, closer to $2000. Now the true 80 tier card is over $1000, its a problem when there isn't any competition and Nvidia keeps moving products up the stack yet people keeping paying at ridiculous prices.

I also doubt a 3070 is capable of any decent framerates at 4k, its a 1440p card at best, especially with newer titles using more VRAM.

There is competition though. Still doesn't change things. It'll be interesting to see how AMD positions their cards. I imagine they'll be right up there with Nvidia.

IMO the prices aren't that ridiculous. If a full build of an insane top tier computer is only $5,000, you're still getting a killer deal compared to tons of other hobbies.

With an average FPS of 74 at 4k (albeit mostly because of some high performing outliers), the 3070 is very 4k capable. The 4070 will be truly interesting.

6 minutes ago, SinistralFern23 said:

NVidia is screwing everyone over with the 4000 series. No one should buy them.

Uh, no, they're really not.

[Jeppes]

4 minutes ago, dizmo said:

It's not so much that no one can come into the market, it's the cost involved is so high and the profits take ages to recoup, so it just doesn't make a ton of business sense. It doesn't have anything to do with regulation, nor should it.

Its pretty much only about that. You have to do like 100x the work to circumvent patents.

[MadPistol]

All of you do realize that a business's first priority, especially one that is publicly traded, is to make money so that share holders see a return on investment, right? How much money they make is completely determined by the consumer and their spending habits.

[ToboRobot]

39 minutes ago, dizmo said:

 

Doubtful. You'll never get the entire community to stop buying NVidia cards, so it's kind of a moot point.

 

 

The entire community doesn't need to stop buying from a certain company, just a critical mass to decline revenue below cost to develop and manufacture.

There isn't enough buyers of top tier cards to justify the development if all low and middle tier GPUs disappear.

[dizmo]

13 minutes ago, MadPistol said:

All of you do realize that a business's first priority, especially one that is publicly traded, is to make money so that share holders see a return on investment, right? How much money they make is completely determined by the consumer and their spending habits.

Shhhh child. This forum doesn't like to hear logic.

3 minutes ago, ToboRobot said:

The entire community doesn't need to stop buying from a certain company, just a critical mass to decline revenue below cost to develop and manufacture.

There isn't enough buyers of top tier cards to justify the development if all low and middle tier GPUs disappear.

I know. There still aren't enough people that would be willing to do that to cause a change. There will always been enough that will pay the price for the utmost performance.

[Blademaster91]

1 minute ago, ToboRobot said:

The entire community doesn't need to stop buying from a certain company, just a critical mass to decline revenue below cost to develop and manufacture.

There isn't enough buyers of top tier cards to justify the development if all low and middle tier GPUs disappear.

Voting with your wallet and not buying the top tier would be nice, but doesn't work as theres always people with more money than sense, or have to impress others by buying the latest shiny new thing.

And Nvidia has been milking the market since at least the 20 series with price hikes and the RTX tax, also with the top tier usually being derived from a compute or workstation card, it doesn't cost Nvidia much to change it into a gaming card.  Also considering Nvidia makes most of their profits on compute and AI, gaming is a business they can keep milking rich gamers that don't care about paying over $1000 for a graphics card.

[Blademaster91]

59 minutes ago, dizmo said:

Exactly this.

Though I'd even go as far as saying gaming as a whole is a luxury. You don't need a gaming computer. IMO if you're on a super strict budget you should be buying a console Or nothing at all and spending money on improving your life situation, but people get butthurt when I say logical things like that

Gaming is a luxury, but hasn't been a rich persons luxury until recently with Nvidia increasing prices significantly since the RTX 20 series, the 2080Ti launched at $1200 and people thought it was ridiculously expensive, now people have been accustomed to paying a ton of money for a graphics card.

59 minutes ago, dizmo said:

There is competition though. Still doesn't change things. It'll be interesting to see how AMD positions their cards. I imagine they'll be right up there with Nvidia.

There isn't any competition at the upper end, even if there were people would still buy Nvidia because of the marketing tactics.

And I would expect AMD to price their cards like how they did with the RX6000 series, slightly less, but better rasterization performance per dollar, and less power consumption.

59 minutes ago, dizmo said:

IMO the prices aren't that ridiculous. If a full build of an insane top tier computer is only $5,000, you're still getting a killer deal compared to tons of other hobbies.

The prices are ridiculous if you compare them to the RTX 30 series, or go back and compare them to even what the RTX 20 series were selling for, and those cards were much more expensive than the GTX 10 series.

59 minutes ago, dizmo said:

With an average FPS of 74 at 4k (albeit mostly because of some high performing outliers), the 3070 is very 4k capable. The 4070 will be truly interesting.

So playable at 4k 60fps, that wouldn't be acceptable for most people wanting to play at 4k, perhaps for people gaming on a TV at 60Hz, but anyone buying a 4k 144Hz monitor isn't going to be using a 3070.

What 4070, the 4080 12GB Nvidia wants to call an 80 tier card, or the 4070? I don't have any expectations for the 4070, given the 4080 12GB is very cut down from the 4080 16GB, and I wouldn't expect a 4070 outperform a 3080 Ti. Nvidia is screwing over the midrange market to make the 4090 look cheaper.