Game/Software Ownership

[Voy]

Hey all

 

There is a lot of talk about old Nintendo stores being closed and people not being able to buy and play games they own. 
 

But what about PC gaming?

I can have 1000 games on Steam or Epic stores but if they go down for some reason (yes, yes I know it is Very unlikely but crazy thing do happen) we loose all games and money we spent on them. 
 

GOG is offering option to download offline installer so I could have backup of that technically….

 

I don’t know, it seems like we own less and less… 

[SupaKomputa]

That scenario is possible, but i think they or the studios will provide a patch to the game before closure. Or make it drm free.

If not, well the internet will find its way.

[manikyath]

the problem isnt so much that the store goes down, but that the DRM will also be unable to call home at that point. (or games using steam ID's for user data in their games - that'll be broken too)

 

also, 'less and less' is a bit of a misnomer in gaming. yes, we've lost physical media, but there's a very strong motion of smaller game companies *not* using any DRM that'll tie the game to online services. a lot of smaller games from steam will actually gladly "copypaste" over to a different computer, even without steam installed.

 

simply, if you dont want possessive EULA's and intrusive DRM, dont buy from the big boys.

[Stahlmann]

GOG is the only way you can buy games digitally and actually fully own it. If you buy CP2077 on GOG you can literally put it on a thumb drive and give a copy to your friend. I really like the convenience of having most stuff on steam but i should really buy more stuff on GOG if there is a choice.

[LogicalDrm]

-> Moved to PC Gaming

[Voy]

6 hours ago, manikyath said:

the problem isnt so much that the store goes down, but that the DRM will also be unable to call home at that point. (or games using steam ID's for user data in their games - that'll be broken too)

 

also, 'less and less' is a bit of a misnomer in gaming. yes, we've lost physical media, but there's a very strong motion of smaller game companies *not* using any DRM that'll tie the game to online services. a lot of smaller games from steam will actually gladly "copypaste" over to a different computer, even without steam installed.

 

simply, if you dont want possessive EULA's and intrusive DRM, dont buy from the big boys.

I do buy games because I want to play them.

I just wanted highlight that a lot of people talk about Nintendo closing stores but no one seem to talk about fact that if Steam goes down millions of people will loose their games. 

I have nothing against DRM because I understand companies want to fight piracy but I just think there should be some other way.... I know you can get about 95% of games seven sea's way but that shouldn't be the point anyway....

 

As @Stahlmann said, only real way is with GOG. You can download your game, and if GOG goes down it will always work. no need for internet connection or whatever else.

[FliP0x]

If some of the big stores close, for some reason, just get an unlocked copy.

 

You bought the licence to play a game (indefinitely) and the ability to access the game has been taken for you, so in a legal grey area you should be entitled to download yourself an unlocked copy (as long as it's the same edition of the game that you paid for) to keep playing the game, and I repeat, that you paid for.

 

How to keep playing your games would be the least of the problems. If Steam or Epic get shut down for whatever reason, it would change the gaming industry as we know it.

The industry pretty much adapted to how Steam runs things. If Steam is suddenly gone, assuming that by then we don't get any more digital store competitors, it would open the opportunity for a new company to take over the market share, with their own rules and policies (assuming GOG and Epic don't step up to fill the void that the shutdown of Steam would leave in the gaming space).

 

Just imagine if EA were to replace Steam with a 'revolutionary' Electronic Arts Store that sells you games in pieces, quest by quest, gigabyte by gigabyte.

Can't have enough DLC.

[Rauten]

16 hours ago, FliP0x said:

If some of the big stores close, for some reason, just get an unlocked copy.

 

You bought the licence to play a game (indefinitely) and the ability to access the game has been taken for you, so in a legal grey area you should be entitled to download yourself an unlocked copy (as long as it's the same edition of the game that you paid for) to keep playing the game, and I repeat, that you paid for.

Yup.

If Steam were to go up in flames tomorrow, I'd have zero qualms sailing the high seas for any games I already bought. The developers already received my money for their product.

 

One of the "good" things of Steam's built-in DRM is that it never was about preventing piracy, so it's been cracked for-freaking-ever and Valve hasn't really bothered doing much about it. As long as the game you want to "recover" hasn't used cancerous methods like Denuvo, it should be relatively easy to find pirated copies of the games you own.

 

No idea how Epic does things, though.

[tikker]

On 5/19/2022 at 9:08 AM, Voy said:

I don’t know, it seems like we own less and less… 

As per an Oracle court case ruling you do own the copy of the software that you buy. There's a long thread about that somewhere on the forums as well.

On 5/20/2022 at 9:39 AM, Rauten said:

Yup.

If Steam were to go up in flames tomorrow, I'd have zero qualms sailing the high seas for any games I already bought. The developers already received my money for their product.

It may become a special case, but pirating the game would still be illicit acquisition of a copy from an unauthorised source and as far as I know the home-copy law does not change that either. Allegedly Valve has stated in the past that they have "ways" to let users get their games without Steam's DRM should it go under, so let's hope they will pull through in such a scenario. As of now Steam would be the store of least worries for me. They're such a "too big to fail" entity, I can't see that be brushed off as "well sucks to be you then".

[cretsiah]

8 hours ago, tikker said:

As per an Oracle court case ruling you do own the copy of the software that you buy. There's a long thread about that somewhere on the forums as well.

you want to point us to that.....

 

most of the game companies terms of service i have read lately have been more like windows...... you dont own it, but pay a service fee that allows you to use it not own it

[tikker]

29 minutes ago, cretsiah said:

you want to point us to that.....

 

most of the game companies terms of service i have read lately have been more like windows...... you dont own it, but pay a service fee that allows you to use it not own it

If it's not a subscription, you buy a copy of the game (e.g. your Steam purchase won't expire after 5 years). As the thread linked below explains, the license aspect means that you don't own, for example, God of War (which is "the software" in the EULA) after buying it. That is different from owning your copy of the game.

 

 

The LTT thread is this one:

The court case is this one, started in the context of reselling this "licensed software": https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=d1ff4369-afcc-4879-97fa-7a8afd8b3380

Quote

Oracle argued there was no sale as its licensees did not own the copy on their servers but were merely licensed to use it. The CJEU said a sale was "an agreement by which a person, in return for payment, transfers to another person his rights of ownership in an item of tangible or intangible property belonging to him". It said that Oracle's licence transaction coupled with making available the software by download to its customers for their permanent use constitutes a 'first sale ... of a copy of a program' with the result that under the Directive Oracle's right to control further distribution was extinguished.
<snip>

This decision does not mean only that software developers cannot prevent second hand sales of their software by their European licensees. It means software licence agreements and all their terms and conditions (not just the one prohibiting transfer) can be ignored by European courts if the licence period is indefinite, and probably even if it is tied to the lengthy period of copyright ­­­in Europe - 70 years after death of last surviving programmer.  Such a licence will be regarded as a simple sale and sales of personal property cannot be tagged with conditions on how the property can be used.

This means, for example, that if a licence for software to be downloaded has an indefinite or long period then the usual restrictions or obligations placed on a licensee as a condition for granting the licence such as number of servers, server location, confidentiality, security, field of use, termination for breach will all be unenforceable.

 

[cretsiah]

aahhh now it makes sense why they trying to force us onto subscription deals .....

 

faking a better deal for the customer ( aka more games to access a once )

 

i think ill stick to buying a game...... or old games from now on

[Beerzerker]

On 5/22/2022 at 4:55 PM, cretsiah said:

aahhh now it makes sense why they trying to force us onto subscription deals .....

 

faking a better deal for the customer ( aka more games to access a once )

 

i think ill stick to buying a game...... or old games from now on

Which IS why right from the beginning of games being downloaded VS the sale of physical copies, I knew this was how it would be and I never went for it.

If I can't hold a copy of it in my hand that works offline in it's entirety I don't want it, so I won't buy it.
No Steam/Valve or other accounts here - Never had one, never will.

What I do have I can choose to play what I want, when I want, as long as I want with no limits, no worries.
In fact it can be a 20+ year old game and if I decide one day to fire it up, I can and it still plays in it's entirety - Unlike those you download from, and play on Steam and Valve servers.
Here's an example of it concerning a game called "Tera" just announced right before this post was made: The Adventure Ends

What I"ve got I've got, will keep and not worry about the rest.

[Voy]

10 hours ago, Beerzerker said:

Which IS why right from the beginning of games being downloaded VS the sale of physical copies, I knew this was how it would be and I never went for it.

If I can't hold a copy of it in my hand that works offline in it's entirety I don't want it, so I won't buy it.
No Steam/Valve or other accounts here - Never had one, never will.

What I do have I can choose to play what I want, when I want, as long as I want with no limits, no worries.
In fact it can be a 20+ year old game and if I decide one day to fire it up, I can and it still plays in it's entirety - Unlike those you download from, and play on Steam and Valve servers.
Here's an example of it concerning a game called "Tera" just announced right before this post was made: The Adventure Ends

What I"ve got I've got, will keep and not worry about the rest.

Problem here is it is not possible to buy physical copies of video games anymore.

I do not have issue with online stores like steam, epic, etc... as long as I could download offline installer that I can actually use to install and play game on completely offline computer.

 

 

[Beerzerker]

47 minutes ago, Voy said:

Problem here is it is not possible to buy physical copies of video games anymore.

I do not have issue with online stores like steam, epic, etc... as long as I could download offline installer that I can actually use to install and play game on completely offline computer.

 

 

There is this thing called Ebay, look it up sometime.

I've bought a few there and no probs, in fact what you find is way cheaper than it sold for new in most cases - However we all know to be picky about exactly what we buy and who from.
For games a required disc got damaged/lost I've bought another copy and now have a spare of the extra discs for it (Civ III in my case).

Those you can download and play it offline I'd think are OK too - It's possible I may even have one or two around here archived that was downloaded in the past. 
However as a point, I do not like or will try games with a "Tether" (Online) requirement just to load and play it.

[Voy]

52 minutes ago, Beerzerker said:

There is this thing called Ebay, look it up sometime.

I've bought a few there and no probs, in fact what you find is way cheaper than it sold for new in most cases - However we all know to be picky about exactly what we buy and who from.
For games a required disc got damaged/lost I've bought another copy and now have a spare of the extra discs for it (Civ III in my case).

Those you can download and play it offline I'd think are OK too - It's possible I may even have one or two around here archived that was downloaded in the past. 
However as a point, I do not like or will try games with a "Tether" (Online) requirement just to load and play it.

Yeah you can buy old game on ebay on CD/DVD

new games are digital only.

[cretsiah]

On 5/24/2022 at 8:54 AM, Beerzerker said:

Which IS why right from the beginning of games being downloaded VS the sale of physical copies, I knew this was how it would be and I never went for it.

well GOG's off-line installer is good too, but it does mean having a spare drive or 2 for the games...

[tikker]

On 5/24/2022 at 12:54 AM, Beerzerker said:

Which IS why right from the beginning of games being downloaded VS the sale of physical copies, I knew this was how it would be and I never went for it.

If I can't hold a copy of it in my hand that works offline in it's entirety I don't want it, so I won't buy it.
No Steam/Valve or other accounts here - Never had one, never will.

What I do have I can choose to play what I want, when I want, as long as I want with no limits, no worries.
In fact it can be a 20+ year old game and if I decide one day to fire it up, I can and it still plays in it's entirety - Unlike those you download from, and play on Steam and Valve servers.
Here's an example of it concerning a game called "Tera" just announced right before this post was made: The Adventure Ends

What I"ve got I've got, will keep and not worry about the rest.

If game gets delisted from Steam they still allow you to download it if you bought it to my knowledge. In that sense there is little difference with a game disappearing from retail stores. The Telltale games that were removed due to the studio going bankrupt should still be available to those who bought them, for example. I'm not aware of them simply removing a game for no reason apart from an online multiplayer game that shut down its servers. If Valve/Steam goes down, then yeah, but allegedly they have "ways" and I'm banking on them being too big to fail at this point making that unlikely.

 

Shame about TERA shutting down. I played it for a bit in the past and it was enjoyable with a sort of fresh take on the combat system. MMOs are tricky. It would be nice if every online-only game have servers kept running indefinitely or if players could somehow host it themselves, but I can see there are challenges there (critical mass in terms of active players, money to run and maintain servers, licensing of everything).