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Ligna Energy makes wooden battery, a fight against Lithium and Lead

tridy
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5 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

yeah, i guess you're right, it was a genuine question, but then the next question is why are so many eating it up? to me this sort of thing immediately raises a bunch of red flags and i generally just ignore it (which is probably why im often perplexed when i notice others *dont* ignore it and act like its a serious thing "for real" )  

 

 

"project orion" disagrees! 🤣

 

(seriously *that* is something they should have done, im with the Dyson guy here, even though i usually dont agree with him on much... )

 

Well Orion would have required large mass to orbit values too. It's not somthing that would have worked well, (or was intended to work at all), in atmosphere.

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TLDR they are shit and lithium based blends will reign superior for years to come. 

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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̌̅̒̾̈́̆͌̌̾̎̽̐̅̏́̈̔͛̀̋̃͊̒̓͗͒̑͒̃͂̌̄̇̑̇͛̆̾͛̒̇̍̒̓̀̈́̄̐͂̍͊͗̎̔͌͛̂̏̉̊̎͗͊͒̂̈̽̊́̔̊̃͑̈́̑̌̋̓̅̔́́͒̄̈́̈̂͐̈̅̈̓͌̓͊́̆͌̉͐̊̉͛̓̏̓̅̈́͂̉̒̇̉̆̀̍̄̇͆͛̏̉̑̃̓͂́͋̃̆̒͋̓͊̄́̓̕̕̕̚͘͘͘̚̕̚͘̕̕͜͜͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͠ͅS̷̢̨̧̢̡̨̢̨̢̨̧̧̨̧͚̱̪͇̱̮̪̮̦̝͖̜͙̘̪̘̟̱͇͎̻̪͚̩͍̠̹̮͚̦̝̤͖̙͔͚̙̺̩̥̻͈̺̦͕͈̹̳̖͓̜͚̜̭͉͇͖̟͔͕̹̯̬͍̱̫̮͓̙͇̗̙̼͚̪͇̦̗̜̼̠͈̩̠͉͉̘̱̯̪̟͕̘͖̝͇̼͕̳̻̜͖̜͇̣̠̹̬̗̝͓̖͚̺̫͛̉̅̐̕͘͜͜͜͜ͅͅͅ.̶̨̢̢̨̢̨̢̛̻͙̜̼̮̝̙̣̘̗̪̜̬̳̫̙̮̣̹̥̲̥͇͈̮̟͉̰̮̪̲̗̳̰̫̙͍̦̘̠̗̥̮̹̤̼̼̩͕͉͕͇͙̯̫̩̦̟̦̹͈͔̱̝͈̤͓̻̟̮̱͖̟̹̝͉̰͊̓̏̇͂̅̀̌͑̿͆̿̿͗̽̌̈́̉̂̀̒̊̿͆̃̄͑͆̃̇͒̀͐̍̅̃̍̈́̃̕͘͜͜͝͠͠z̴̢̢̡̧̢̢̧̢̨̡̨̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̲͚̠̜̮̠̜̞̤̺͈̘͍̻̫͖̣̥̗̙̳͓͙̫̫͖͍͇̬̲̳̭̘̮̤̬̖̼͎̬̯̼̮͔̭̠͎͓̼̖̟͈͓̦̩̦̳̙̮̗̮̩͙͓̮̰̜͎̺̞̝̪͎̯̜͈͇̪̙͎̩͖̭̟͎̲̩͔͓͈͌́̿͐̍̓͗͑̒̈́̎͂̋͂̀͂̑͂͊͆̍͛̄̃͌͗̌́̈̊́́̅͗̉͛͌͋̂̋̇̅̔̇͊͑͆̐̇͊͋̄̈́͆̍̋̏͑̓̈́̏̀͒̂̔̄̅̇̌̀̈́̿̽̋͐̾̆͆͆̈̌̿̈́̎͌̊̓̒͐̾̇̈́̍͛̅͌̽́̏͆̉́̉̓̅́͂͛̄̆͌̈́̇͐̒̿̾͌͊͗̀͑̃̊̓̈̈́̊͒̒̏̿́͑̄̑͋̀̽̀̔̀̎̄͑̌̔́̉̐͛̓̐̅́̒̎̈͆̀̍̾̀͂̄̈́̈́̈́̑̏̈́̐̽̐́̏̂̐̔̓̉̈́͂̕̚̕͘͘̚͘̚̕̚̚̚͘̕̕̕͜͜͝͠͠͝͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͝͝ͅͅͅī̸̧̧̧̡̨̨̢̨̛̛̘͓̼̰̰̮̗̰͚̙̥̣͍̦̺͈̣̻͇̱͔̰͈͓͖͈̻̲̫̪̲͈̜̲̬̖̻̰̦̰͙̤̘̝̦̟͈̭̱̮̠͍̖̲͉̫͔͖͔͈̻̖̝͎̖͕͔̣͈̤̗̱̀̅̃̈́͌̿̏͋̊̇̂̀̀̒̉̄̈́͋͌̽́̈́̓̑̈̀̍͗͜͜͠͠ͅp̴̢̢̧̨̡̡̨̢̨̢̢̢̨̡̛̛͕̩͕̟̫̝͈̖̟̣̲̖̭̙͇̟̗͖͎̹͇̘̰̗̝̹̤̺͉͎̙̝̟͙͚̦͚͖̜̫̰͖̼̤̥̤̹̖͉͚̺̥̮̮̫͖͍̼̰̭̤̲͔̩̯̣͖̻͇̞̳̬͉̣̖̥̣͓̤͔̪̙͎̰̬͚̣̭̞̬͎̼͉͓̮͙͕̗̦̞̥̮̘̻͎̭̼͚͎͈͇̥̗͖̫̮̤̦͙̭͎̝͖̣̰̱̩͎̩͎̘͇̟̠̱̬͈̗͍̦̘̱̰̤̱̘̫̫̮̥͕͉̥̜̯͖̖͍̮̼̲͓̤̮͈̤͓̭̝̟̲̲̳̟̠͉̙̻͕͙̞͔̖͈̱̞͓͔̬̮͎̙̭͎̩̟̖͚̆͐̅͆̿͐̄̓̀̇̂̊̃̂̄̊̀͐̍̌̅͌̆͊̆̓́̄́̃̆͗͊́̓̀͑͐̐̇͐̍́̓̈́̓̑̈̈́̽͂́̑͒͐͋̊͊̇̇̆̑̃̈́̎͛̎̓͊͛̐̾́̀͌̐̈́͛̃̂̈̿̽̇̋̍͒̍͗̈͘̚̚͘̚͘͘͜͜͜͜͜͜͠͠͝͝ͅͅͅ☻♥■∞{╚mYÄÜXτ╕○\╚Θº£¥ΘBM@Q05♠{{↨↨▬§¶‼↕◄►☼1♦  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4 hours ago, Pixel5 said:

Zero actual numbers about these batteries on the website.

Just fancy graphics and visions without any hard data.

 

Looks like a lot of vaporware with nothing behind it.

 

Yeah the lack of info is a complete red flag at this point. Yes somthing new is needed for grid storage, Lithium is completely unsuited to that, but given how little info seems to exist this doesn't look to be it.

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Christ their website really is devoid of information, but there was some details of the battery cells in one post in their "latest news" section (its in Swedish sadly, so i cant understand more than the slides. But the source is there if anyone feels like translating those couple of talking points :P).

Spoiler

1509447628_Lignabatteries.PNG.adea39afc723927a59a8d879bcd63a08.PNG

So it looks like they're not too bad, with a low density compared to lithium ion cells, and much better cycling.But i have really no idea how these batteries work, I cant find anything on them.

 

The company does to have patents on organic electrodes and water-based electrolyte, but no "normal" documents on battery structure (reading patents is a bore, maybe its in there).

A lot of this tech & materials seems to be based on the university's research group, their papers utilise the same materials as in the patents, although they focus on redox flow batteries. One post does associate Ligna Energy. So its unclear to me weather they are making just "normal" batteries, or also redox flow batteries later on for even larger scale solutions.

 

Overall I think that the tech they have developed is really cool, using a waste product to make something of high value like batteries is smart, and the research papers seems to indicate they put a lot of work in optimizing organic redox flow batteries. Even if the performance isn't like that of Lithium ion batteries, its evident that they are targeting at a very different need than lithium cells which are expensive and relatively dangerous solution.

 

I guess it can be frustrating to read about research technology that isn't at the point of being in the working world yet, but its equally frustrating to have a novel technology get immediately dismissed just because its not in everyones hands yet.

 

 

 

 

 

Bleigh!  Ever hear of AC series? 

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On 12/12/2021 at 3:21 PM, bcredeur97 said:

The quest for better batteries continues...

 

Yep the battery startup I'm most hyped about is Prieto Battery. They are based in Fort Collins, CO and have been around since 2009 developing a Li-Po battery where the copper substrate on which the anode and cathode binds to is a "foam" mesh instead of a flat slab. The antimonide anode and lithium cobalt oxide cathode is coated on to the mesh substrate with electrolyte in between using a non-toxic electroplating process involving water and citric acid (lemonade, but it's not?) and the battery is estimated to have 3X the energy density and charge 5X faster compared to current lithium batteries. Another tantalizing selling point is that the way the battery is put together does not allow dendrites to form thus making it infinitely safer for consumer, industrial, medical, and transportation applications.

54cb4705d5184_-_3d-batteries-02-0814-de.jpg

They got some hype in 2015 from Popular Mechanics after Intel make a pretty big initial investment: https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/how-to/a11058/how-to-make-battery-power-more-powerful-17085182/

 

Then again in 2017 in a pretty well-written Denver Post article: https://web.archive.org/web/20170621052357/http://www.denverpost.com/2017/06/18/prieto-battery-smartphones-3d/

 

And this year as well with more funding from Pilates Capital and Stanley & Decker: https://cleantechnica.com/2021/08/19/stanley-black-decker-bets-on-foam-superbattery-energy-storage-revolution/

 

Some ultra Hi-Res JPEGs:

Spoiler

energy-storage-solid-state-battery.jpg

 

54cb470648159_-_3d-batteries-01-0814-de.jpg

 

prieto-battery-05162017-ac_ac20202_16573695.jpg

 

prieto-battery-05162017-ac_ac30696_16573705.jpg

 

prieto-battery-05162017-ac_ac30795_16573717.jpg

 

.

Found way to install the YT Dislike Extension on my phone! xD

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Also calling these "wooden" batteries is a lie. They use organic polymer derived from wood. It's about the same as calling rubber tires "wooden" because we get latex from trees...

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3 hours ago, RejZoR said:

Also calling these "wooden" batteries is a lie. They use organic polymer derived from wood. It's about the same as calling rubber tires "wooden" because we get latex from trees...

 

I supected that from the small amount of info in the OP but thanks for confirming.

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I tried to contact the Ligna company and they replied right away asking who I am and why I am asking.

I described LTT community, gave the link to the forum, said how cool the technology could be. Aaaaaaaaaand ... "surprisingly" did not hear from them since then. Too small of a fish, I assume.

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1 hour ago, tridy said:

Too small of a fish, I assume.

Or: asking too many questions...

 

 

The direction tells you... the direction. 

-Scott Manley, 2021

 

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3 hours ago, tridy said:

I tried to contact the Ligna company and they replied right away asking who I am and why I am asking.

I described LTT community, gave the link to the forum, said how cool the technology could be. Aaaaaaaaaand ... "surprisingly" did not hear from them since then. Too small of a fish, I assume.

I thought if doing this! Fair play with actually going through with it! What did you ask them? 

Bleigh!  Ever hear of AC series? 

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12 hours ago, Nup said:

I thought if doing this! Fair play with actually going through with it! What did you ask them? 

this:

Spoiler

Hej [Pxxxx.]

My name is [me] and I live and work (as an IT consultant) in Stockholm. From time to time when I see the news, especially the Swedish ones, I post them to the news topic on Linus Tech Tips, where they on by-daily basis create videos with news (they have around 14 million subscribers on their channel), and this way more people get to know what is happening around the world. So, being in Sweden I was really happy to post the information about the new technology on the mentioned forum:

 

url to this forum

 

In the thread, people started asking for more information that would back up the article. So, I decided to try to ask you if you have something more specific about your products. It is driven by my personal interest in technology as well as that it is from a Swedish company and for some time now I have been living in this country.

 

I do not know if you have any interest in spreading more information about the company/product of it is too early to talk about it, but it would be really great if it works out for Ligna Energy.

 
Tack!


Mvh

 

[me xxxxx]
[myphone xxxx]

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16 hours ago, tridy said:

this:

  Reveal hidden contents

Hej [Pxxxx.]

My name is [me] and I live and work (as an IT consultant) in Stockholm. From time to time when I see the news, especially the Swedish ones, I post them to the news topic on Linus Tech Tips, where they on by-daily basis create videos with news (they have around 14 million subscribers on their channel), and this way more people get to know what is happening around the world. So, being in Sweden I was really happy to post the information about the new technology on the mentioned forum:

 

url to this forum

 

In the thread, people started asking for more information that would back up the article. So, I decided to try to ask you if you have something more specific about your products. It is driven by my personal interest in technology as well as that it is from a Swedish company and for some time now I have been living in this country.

 

I do not know if you have any interest in spreading more information about the company/product of it is too early to talk about it, but it would be really great if it works out for Ligna Energy.

 
Tack!


Mvh

 

[me xxxxx]
[myphone xxxx]

Well they're the ones that missed out on the free advertisement!

Bleigh!  Ever hear of AC series? 

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Always gotta ignore critics to delay potential doubts and backlash and the related losses as much as possible...

F@H
Desktop: i9-13900K, ASUS Z790-E, 64GB DDR5-6000 CL36, RTX3080, 2TB MP600 Pro XT, 2TB SX8200Pro, 2x16TB Ironwolf RAID0, Corsair HX1200, Antec Vortex 360 AIO, Thermaltake Versa H25 TG, Samsung 4K curved 49" TV, 23" secondary, Mountain Everest Max

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Asus Zenbook UM325UA, Ryzen 7 5700u, 16GB, 1TB, OLED

 

GPD Win 2

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a day ago I have got a response from the company. Here is some additional information about their company and the business:

 

Quote

If we have a look at our first generation of small-scale storages, its purpose is to power sensor units in IoT-applications. Some of the segments we’re working with are smart buildings, asset tracking and agriculture. So, where you might find our component in the near future might be inside indoor climate units at your office, tracking devices for parcels or irrigation sensors out in crop fields. When it comes to our large-scale storage, some of the segments we’ll focus on are solar/wind pars and residential areas with solar systems. This is where we believe our green and safe technology can make an impact.

 

It sound likes they have some action going on at the moment. when i was involved in a LoRa IoT  project a couple of years ago, there was a talk about making smart disposable tags for the packages, so they would respond to the scanners in the post offices when the packages pass through, that is instead of scanning the bar-codes which is happening these days. I have not seen it in practice yet but this is something I thought could be quite cool.

 

I will keep my eye on this company and post here if I find something interesting.

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This sounds sketch since this kind of application is exactly not one where you'd want low density batteries...

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31 minutes ago, Kilrah said:

This sounds sketch since this kind of application is exactly not one where you'd want low density batteries...

As about "smart" post-office tags, it could be dense enough to keep running for a month while it gets delivered. I can think of the hybrid solutions where during the day this kind of battery is getting charged from the sun and then during the night there is enough power to run an irrigation sensor, for instance. Kind of where it is good enough for that, like lower performance cores ;). But it is just my speculations.

 

It is a pity though that they did not want to disclose to whom they sold a thousand battery components for IoT applications.

 

 

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On 12/11/2021 at 2:48 PM, tikker said:

Batteries and fusion. The two technologies that always have their breakthoughs around the corner.

But there have been many battery breakthroughs. The modern lithium battery has only been sold for consumer use for around 20 years, and since then, the price of them have gone down dramatically.

On 12/11/2021 at 5:36 AM, huilun02 said:

Deforestation intensifies

Its not deforestation though. Thats when you tear down a forest and replace the land with something else. There is no reason to why they would tear down these trees and not replant them.

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I didn't read all the comments, just a quick skim of the first page or so of them...but I read the article.

 

This is pretty cool, but somewhat limited in use.  To answer a few of the things people in comments have said:

1) Their goal is energy density similar to lead acid (not lithium)...so don't expect this in any portable/handheld device.

2) They don't state energy output/charging capabilities, self discharge rates, cycle expectancies, nor weight.  It could likely be argued that this would weigh less than either Pb or Li batteries though.  If the other items aren't bad, it has potential for future vehicles since city items like busses are way more impacted by weight than by physical size for their efficiency.  That'd be super scaled up in long term future land though.

3) They are already producing for some IoT devices (low draw sensors), and have agreements with a solar storage company.  So at this point, they can make them, but they're looking to ramp up to make them in more traditional scale.

 

 

How green it really ends up being will likely end up being based on how much processing needs to be done to get a good enough quality material for the packs, and how many charge cycles.  You don't gain green points by needing to be replaced more often and thus needing more transportation emissions.

 

I'd personally be happy to see a simple replacement for Alkaline/nimh...since that bar is pretty low for success at this point, and they're still in all kinds of things.

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14 minutes ago, justpoet said:

I'd personally be happy to see a simple replacement for Alkaline/nimh...since that bar is pretty low for success at this point, and they're still in all kinds of things.

Same here. And lithium isn't a great alternative because of the exploding batteries. I just wish WiTricity actually worked as initially advertised and we could replace all of these AA/AAA/AAAA batteries with fake batteries that only have some capacitors to smoothen out the current and voltage received by the antenna. 

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1 minute ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

Same here. And lithium isn't a great alternative because of the exploding batteries. I just wish WiTricity actually worked as initially advertised and we could replace all of these AA/AAA/AAAA batteries with fake batteries that only have some capacitors to smoothen out the current and voltage received by the antenna. 

LiFe instead of LiPo solves the exploding issue at the cost of weight/energy density/charge speed, but still being really good.  At this point, any long term rechargeable that isn't a cheap toy should probably be going the LiFe route (also currently the best tech for solar storage for households, and what many construction tool batteries use).

 

I guess the biggest question for this new tech will actually be....how much vs the competition?  That's why all the cheap crap batteries still live on forever.  Based on the energy density they aim for though, if they can output enough current at that size, they could potentially take over zinc air batteries, such as are used in every hearing aid and get replaced in higher powered hearing aids every few days.

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17 minutes ago, justpoet said:

LiFe instead of LiPo solves the exploding issue at the cost of weight/energy density/charge speed, but still being really good.  At this point, any long term rechargeable that isn't a cheap toy should probably be going the LiFe route (also currently the best tech for solar storage for households, and what many construction tool batteries use).

 

I guess the biggest question for this new tech will actually be....how much vs the competition?  That's why all the cheap crap batteries still live on forever.  Based on the energy density they aim for though, if they can output enough current at that size, they could potentially take over zinc air batteries, such as are used in every hearing aid and get replaced in higher powered hearing aids every few days.

My Zinc-Air last ~1 1/2 to 2 weeks. Size 13.

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8 hours ago, poochyena said:

But there have been many battery breakthroughs. The modern lithium battery has only been sold for consumer use for around 20 years, and since then, the price of them have gone down dramatically.

That's not a breakthrough though, that's the whole point. The last breakthrough was Li-ion back then that was very significantly better than anything before it - since then it's only been small iterative improvements upon it but that's it, and the cost reduction is just due to scale.

A "breakthrough" would be "here's something 3 times better than what you were using last year". 

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9 hours ago, poochyena said:

But there have been many battery breakthroughs. The modern lithium battery has only been sold for consumer use for around 20 years, and since then, the price of them have gone down dramatically.

First take a look here...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#In_batteries

 

...as @Kilrahalready said, Li-ion batteries were a pretty big jump forward compared to previous tech however if we then look here...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#In_chemical_reactions_(oxidation)

 

... you'll notice that we don't have anywhere else to go with portable batteries. Lithium is pretty much the most energy dense solid matter that we can use, beyond that are liquids, gasses or other solids that you couldn't use even if you wanted too (I'm not gonna use a boron battery thank you very much).

 

Anyone claiming to be working on a battery that is going to change the world is a snake oil salesman.

 

Edit - Also I love that Gasohol is actually a thing 😄

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6 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

... you'll notice that we don't have anywhere else to go with portable batteries. Lithium is pretty much the most energy dense solid matter that we can use, beyond that are liquids, gasses or other solids that you couldn't use even if you wanted too (I'm not gonna use a boron battery thank you very much).

 

Anyone claiming to be working on a battery that is going to change the world is a snake oil salesman.

Uhm, yes we do...even the links you posted show that the 18650 Lithion-ion battery is only 2.3% efficient in utilizing the energy density (per kg).  And about 10% of density per volume.  You need to consider as well that it went from 0.59 to about 1.  So. that would mean that it has greatly improved weight density overtime (which it has).  There are a ton of different chemistries of batteries as well which makes it so that there is a bunch of wiggle room.

 

There is also more too things than energy density as well, you need to factor in the amount of cycles and charge rates.  Battery breakthroughs don't have to be in terms of density, but practicality; with so much solar, and wind coming online we need battery banks that can cycle a lot and retain their charge.

 

A good example of this would be if we ever created an efficient way to turn aluminum oxides into pure aluminum (right now it uses a lot of energy to process aluminum though).  The energy density, per size, is through the roof (and aluminum batteries from my understanding are a lot more efficient in getting the energy per kg...but again issues then turning it back into pure aluminum).

 

Same with graphite (also graphene, CNT's), their energy density per size (not weight) is better than Lithium (issues with mass productions, and lack of real world testing)

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3 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

Uhm, yes we do...even the links you posted show that the 18650 Lithion-ion battery is only 2.3% efficient in utilizing the energy density (per kg).  And about 10% of density per volume.  You need to consider as well that it went from 0.59 to about 1.  So. that would mean that it has greatly improved weight density overtime (which it has).  There are a ton of different chemistries of batteries as well which makes it so that there is a bunch of wiggle room.

Oh absolutely, I'm not saying we can't improve things at all but in terms of giant leaps, not gonna happen. The problem with efficiency being so low is really not a simple fix though, you have to be REALLY careful you don't let the chemical reaction run out of control so they will add impurities to retard the reaction plus electrolysis is pretty wasteful anyway, lots of energy is wasted as ions flow between the 2 different materials.

3 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

There is also more too things than energy density as well, you need to factor in the amount of cycles and charge rates.  Battery breakthroughs don't have to be in terms of density, but practicality; with so much solar, and wind coming online we need battery banks that can cycle a lot and retain their charge.

Yeah but having a high cycle count doesn't do anything to improve output, only durability (which arguably is the more important metric anyway since disposing batteries is pretty toxic to the environment).

3 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

A good example of this would be if we ever created an efficient way to turn aluminum oxides into pure aluminum (right now it uses a lot of energy to process aluminum though).  The energy density, per size, is through the roof (and aluminum batteries from my understanding are a lot more efficient in getting the energy per kg...but again issues then turning it back into pure aluminum).

 

Same with graphite (also graphene, CNT's), their energy density per size (not weight) is better than Lithium (issues with mass productions, and lack of real world testing)

Again, its the pesky laws of physics, since energy cannot be created or lost, you can only ever get out what you put in.

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