I’m Legally Obligated to Disclose This

[williamcll]

My only two complaints for the framework: Barebone model costs too much and no AMD option.

[Freakwise]

11 hours ago, igormp said:

RJ45 is a little harder due to space constraints but shouldn't be impossible, and I bet someone will come with it anyway given how universal it is, maybe frame.work will even release one officially, who knows.

There's one of those drop down/folding rj45 port, so even if it's "impossible" to fit in the module adding one with the this mechanism should work

[Freakwise]

11 minutes ago, James Evens said:

The usual way of using a plastic hinge sucks if nobody tested it: the ethernet plug is often higher then the rubber feet and with that your notebook is tilted and worse all of the force is on the connector.

That's true i guess but i think it's depends, me and my other 2 friends have completely different laptops but have the same ethernet port drop down business going on and none of us experience the tilting of the laptop

 

As for hinges? Well yeah i can see that becomes a problem although o just want to say that, after owning my laptop for 3 years i have yet to have problems with the hinges

 

Oh sure it become "loose" overtime  but it still "holds" the ethernet cable fairly well and as far as i concern, that was not a problem plus it's not like i carry my laptop around with any sort of cables plug in

[Bramimond]

It's kinda funny, I was really excited about this after the first video but have since discovered ortholinear split keyboards and don't think I can go back to laptops after that. Instead, I'm now looking into replacing my laptop with a tablet and extra keyboard.

 

Laptop keyboards have always been awful compromises, but it wasn't that big of a deal. Now, it's an outright dealbreaker. 

[Stahlmann]

17 hours ago, tikker said:

What does Framework not wanting to be reviewed by LTT have to do with it? Linus called out to them wanting to invest and they said yes.

That'd be interesting. By the logic of this thread they'll then have to abandon all case reviews and should

never be allowed to review case airflow related things anymore and are irrecoverably compromised.

That is the reason why Gamers Nexus ultimately turned down all the offers they got. Many brands wanted to work with them. I have no doubt than GN could design a very nice case, but ultimately many people would simply not trust them to be unbiased moving forward. Even if they fully disclose their involvement with some case manufacturer right at the start of the video.

 

But i don't see how his investment changes anything. For a while now LTT has had a very subjective way of "reviewing" products. Most of their reviews or showcases of TVs and monitors basically come down to someone sitting in front of it for 10 minutes and saying "yeah, this is fine". No technical testing whatsoever. Of course there are people working at LTT that would love to go much deeper in their reviews (for example Anthony) but that is just not the way LTTs videos are presented.

 

LTT is focusing much more on entertainment than on technical reviews. But i'm not saying that's bad either. There are plenty of other sources for technical and detailed reviews for anything in the tech industry.

 

If you want to see people dicking around having fun and doing janky but cool projects, watch LTT or JayzTwoCents.

 

If you want to really inform yourself on a product you're interested in, go to GamersNexus, Hardware Unboxed, etc...

[tikker]

1 hour ago, Stahlmann said:

LTT is focusing much more on entertainment than on technical reviews. But i'm not saying that's bad either. There are plenty of other sources for technical and detailed reviews for anything in the tech industry.

 

If you want to see people dicking around having fun and doing janky but cool projects, watch LTT or JayzTwoCents.

 

If you want to really inform yourself on a product you're interested in, go to GamersNexus, Hardware Unboxed, etc...

Indeed. At first I was a bit hesitant when way back they announced they'd want to take a more Topgear-esque spin on tech, but honestly I've come to enjoy it. I enjoy their videos as a catch up on what's going on and what products are around with some quick numbers and benchmarks. Whether you like one or the other, there is a reason why LTT has almost 14 M subscribers (if that's still anything to go by these days) and GN "only" 1.5 M. They cater to different audiences.

[Egg-Roll]

35 minutes ago, Stahlmann said:

If you want to really inform yourself on a product you're interested in, go to GamersNexus, Hardware Unboxed, etc...

Right now go tell the whole world that, for example the person looking at the laptop to buy and LTT's video is the first one that comes up, it's 15 minutes long vs 30+ or none at all.

 

Obviously one video shouldn't be the end of all searches, but the sad reality of todays society is it very likely is going to be, and that's where the issues arise, having a potential biased opinion because of having a financial interest in a different company in a one click mentality society is a bad thing not just for the potential buyers but the manufactures and therefore LMG themselves. Like I said anything bad said by LMG about a laptop where Linus has had any involvement in can be grounds for issues with said manufacture. LMG is big enough to catch the attention of said manufactures as well, and all it takes is one wrong move, one wrong word, or maybe simply having Linus on screen saying something truthful but bad. Remember you can sue anyone for anything (yes even here in Canada) and if a company thinks Linus was biased towards their products because of the investment it's their right to seek damages, a suit like that could cripple LMG not to mention potentially kill it if they win a large enough payout. Also the company suing doesn't have to prove outright Linus/LMG was being biased in the video they just to prove that its potential exists (this video proves it could in the future) and it might have influenced the video via their own in house testing (even better would be 3rd party, courts love 3rdd party as proof) to win. Anyone who defends Linus being apart of laptop videos either are ignoring those facts or haven't thought of them.

 

Remote? Only as remote as LMG and Linus wants it to be. Kicking all laptop videos would remove LMG from liability and scrutiny 100% no questions asked, kicking Linus from all laptop videos should do the same (give Anthony full control over them), or at least lower the chances of it so long the company can prove Linus had no involvement (they'd likely be contacted first in this case vs 50/50 on seeing a court order). The issue with the second option is if LMGs money was used and not Linus's own personal money, esp if Linus put LMG/LTT on as the investor vs pulling it out at tax rates (if it fails a tax write off may be possible for the company, maybe the same for personal not sure tho) then they should drop all videos as the company is now the potentially biased party, the only people who know this are the higher ups at LMG and/or Linus, he might have said he invested in it, but that wording is still true if he put the companies name on it as he owns the company.

[igormp]

5 hours ago, Freakwise said:

There's one of those drop down/folding rj45 port, so even if it's "impossible" to fit in the module adding one with the this mechanism should work

Yeah, that's still hard to manage in a single module. Cost and magnetics is another issue, someone on the framework forum tried to do some sketches for a rj45 module and it neared ~$60 just in components.

[YoungBlade]

29 minutes ago, Egg-Roll said:

Right now go tell the whole world that, for example the person looking at the laptop to buy and LTT's video is the first one that comes up, it's 15 minutes long vs 30+ or none at all.

 

Obviously one video shouldn't be the end of all searches, but the sad reality of todays society is it very likely is going to be, and that's where the issues arise, having a potential biased opinion because of having a financial interest in a different company in a one click mentality society is a bad thing not just for the potential buyers but the manufactures and therefore LMG themselves.

If people are too lazy to do proper research on a product, then there's no helping that. And there's nothing any of us, or any individual YouTuber, can do about it. They'd all have to up their standards to a reasonable level, and that just isn't going to happen.

 

LTT is not guaranteed to be the top video on a particular product. For example, I typed in "razer blade laptop review" and the top result was Hardware Canucks followed by Dave2D. LTT is third. But still other videos can be higher, especially for less popular products, and some of those have insanely low standards. I won't name names, but I've watched "reviews" that make even an LTT product showcase look informative in comparison. Unboxings masquerading as reviews are rampant, and frankly, those are the worst of all.

 

I'd much rather see a bought-and-paid-for showcase presented by someone like LTT, who at least isn't going to outright lie for the sake of money, than watch some influencer unbox a product and go down the spec sheet. The former at least gives some perspective on the product, the latter is useless - I can read spec sheets just fine, and way faster to boot.

[Rex Hite]

I still  think ethical issues about this matter are more entertaining than consequential but announcing the full dollar amount was just tacky. He does that from time to time. I think declaring his investment as a percentage of something (his business, Framework's business etc) of would have been more classy.

[Egg-Roll]

9 minutes ago, YoungBlade said:

If people are too lazy to do proper research on a product, then there's no helping that. And there's nothing any of us, or any individual YouTuber, can do about it. They'd all have to up their standards to a reasonable level, and that just isn't going to happen.

 

LTT is not guaranteed to be the top video on a particular product. For example, I typed in "razer blade laptop review" and the top result was Hardware Canucks followed by Dave2D. LTT is third. But still other videos can be higher, especially for less popular products, and some of those have insanely low standards. I won't name names, but I've watched "reviews" that make even an LTT product showcase look informative in comparison. Unboxings masquerading as reviews are rampant, and frankly, those are the worst of all.

 

I'd much rather see a bought-and-paid-for showcase presented by someone like LTT, who at least isn't going to outright lie for the sake of money, than watch some influencer unbox a product and go down the spec sheet. The former at least gives some perspective on the product, the latter is useless - I can read spec sheets just fine, and way faster to boot.

It's the sad reality we live in unfortunately, which is why Linus and gang have to now tread carefully going forward, this isn't a "here's a truck load of cash, give us praise, give us purchases" this is a "I invested in company A, now here's my opinion on Company B's product today". The difference is Linus/LMG has more potential gain by redirecting people to their new found interest which could continue to potentially profit him/them years to come vs a one time cash dump. Equally those one click wonders, if Linus gives it a bad review due to being biased it could just hard stop looking at the laptop and seek for a different one from a different company because he has so many subscribers so he "has to be" trust worthy.

 

I know they won't always be on the top, but it depends on wording and product. I've bumped into them as the only video a few times, not a whole lot mind you but all you need is that 1 time, and length also matters, LTTs are usually not too long nor too short. I have also seen some questionable videos about products that have been clearly paid for by the company and while yes LTT is better that way doesn't mean we should not let our guards down either and let things slide. By asking Linus to step out of all laptop videos it ensures LTT will not go the way of the scumbag youtubers doesn't it? It could even make laptop reviews better too.

 

I'll be fine with Linus in laptop reviews/sponsorships on one condition he always publicly announces his involvement in Frameworks at the beginning of each video (sponsorships not really needed as they'd have to be ok with Linus being on screen after being told this), could it hurt their creditability? Sure, but it would also dissolve them of liability for the most part and may even boost their creditability, esp if it's a fair review. The reason why I don't have high hopes on Linus keeping true to his words is because, how's the whole laptop memory module thing working out for them? 2 laptop videos later 0 talk about it since if I remember correctly (original frameworks doesn't really count).

 

Ultimately this is a choice Linus has to make, will he drop all laptop videos from LMG to be safe, will he no longer take part in any laptop videos, will he/LMG staff say a disclaimer in every laptop video he partook in (for videos it has to be audible or text in the video and not text in the description), or will he say F it and continue on normally at which time we can only hope he doesn't go the way of the scumbags (or gets sued into oblivion) and actually manages to keep his word for once on a matter that actually matters? Only time will tell sadly...

 

2 minutes ago, Rex Hite said:

I still  think ethical issues about this matter are more entertaining than consequential but announcing the full dollar amount was just tacky. He does that from time to time. I think declaring his investment as a percentage of something (his business, Framework's business etc) of would have been more classy.

That depends on the arrangement, if Frameworks promises a % per year for 10 years that's all they have to do, if they promised a % in a IPO to all initial investors that is usually locked under a NDA till said time. The only reason why Linus was required to announce this is because of the conflict of interest issues. If he invested in say a medical equipment startup company that's his personal choice too and he doesn't need to announce that to the world, I'm sure he's invested in other companies or stocks in the past, this one is only public for the obvious reasons.

[Caffeinatedtweek]

On 9/15/2021 at 2:50 PM, JonoT said:

 

Hey Linus, How can I buy into Framework?

[tikker]

On 9/17/2021 at 2:49 PM, Egg-Roll said:

Obviously one video shouldn't be the end of all searches, but the sad reality of todays society is it very likely is going to be, and that's where the issues arise, having a potential biased opinion because of having a financial interest in a different company in a one click mentality society is a bad thing not just for the potential buyers but the manufactures and therefore LMG themselves.

Can't cure human stupidity unfortunately. Watching a single LTT review is as bad as watching any other single review and calling it a day. Yes, they have a big moral responsibility to try and give an objective review. The one click mentality is also why sponsors are great for companies. You'll see your favourite "influencer" cover it and hopefully go out and buy it afterwards. They did sponsored content for Nvidia showing off the 3090 for 8k gaming. Should we now instantly never believe any GPU reviews from them ever again? They have a big monetary incentive after all to keep getting sponsored by Nvidia.

On 9/17/2021 at 2:49 PM, Egg-Roll said:

Remember you can sue anyone for anything (yes even here in Canada) and if a company thinks Linus was biased towards their products because of the investment it's their right to seek damages, a suit like that could cripple LMG not to mention potentially kill it if they win a large enough payout. Also the company suing doesn't have to prove outright Linus/LMG was being biased in the video they just to prove that its potential exists (this video proves it could in the future) and it might have influenced the video via their own in house testing (even better would be 3rd party, courts love 3rdd party as proof) to win.

Yes you can theoretically sue for anything, but most of our legal systems are based on proof. If the initial claim doesn't make sense it'll get just dismissed (e.g. me sueing you for bad purchase advice here likely won't get far). If it does make it to court and you claim damages then you should have believable proof of those damages if you want to win. You can't be found guilty of a crime you didn't commit. Just look at the Epic vs Apple lawsuits or something. Maybe not the prime example, but crying wolf won't win you the case. If company X would sue Linus for damages after he says "build quality is meh" but their sales haven't obviously suffered or even risen from that, they don't have a believable case. You do have a point that Linus would have a harder position to defend, because of the potential conflict of interest. However, they can also lean on other reviews out there and if they all say "build quality meh" then you can see there is no foul play, fingers crossed for a reasonable judge.

 

They will need to be more careful with content. I think he should carefully consider his involvement in right to repair related videos and probably stay out of content that features Framework directly if that would even happen. I have less of an issue in simple laptop showcases or reviews however. My reason is that getting upset about Linus presenting content saying "Razer Blade beats Asus Zenbook" is similar to complaining about a silver investor saying he thinks gold is prettier than platinum.

 

The cleanest option would be to never touch on laptops and right to repair again. I, however, have faith they have the integrity to handle this should they continue covering laptops in whatever shape or form. Time will tell if that is misplaced. In the mean time I'm sure the man himself is enjoying this war and wondering why people dedicate so much time to argueing about this

[Euchre]

I think what some people are forgetting here is that we basically have the ear of a potentially major influence on the direction the company takes. In theory, and if they were really being wise, all of the companies LTT reviews would want to listen to the feedback and even considering using it to make changes to their products and the direction of their designs. We've seen that this isn't the case, and really is a classic example of the 'we already know that' which brings down companies in the long run. Why do you think brands like Compaq, Gateway, and others vanished or dissolved into some diluted form somewhere else?

 

I've seen some mentions of other laptop designs Framework is working on, beyond this thin-and-light category machine. I look forward to those, because the T&L category is a lot tougher to engineer for. People discussing the difficulty fitting in an ethernet port, or DB9 serial port, are missing that it is already a challenge for any T&L machine. Just imagine how much easier and efficient it will be if they decide to make a desktop replacement or gaming laptop - two categories where being upgradeable will be MUCH more useful and relatively easy to do. I'm sure the gamer biased LTT core audience would find a laptop to be a real gaming option if they could upgrade the GPU regularly, and otherwise adapt new peripherals that may emerge in the gaming landscape.

[Egg-Roll]

6 hours ago, tikker said:

They did sponsored content for Nvidia showing off the 3090 for 8k gaming. Should we now instantly never believe any GPU reviews from them ever again? They have a big monetary incentive after all to keep getting sponsored by Nvidia.

They got sponsored by Nvidia, are you sure? I can double check later(it's getting late), but to the best of my knowledge they never were sponsors. I do vaguely remember the video you are talking about tho.

 

6 hours ago, tikker said:

You can't be found guilty of a crime you didn't commit. Just look at the Epic vs Apple lawsuits or something. Maybe not the prime example, but crying wolf won't win you the case. If company X would sue Linus for damages after he says "build quality is meh" but their sales haven't obviously suffered or even risen from that, they don't have a believable case. You do have a point that Linus would have a harder position to defend, because of the potential conflict of interest. However, they can also lean on other reviews out there and if they all say "build quality meh" then you can see there is no foul play, fingers crossed for a reasonable judge.

Oh boy are you wrong about that first line... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wrongful_convictions_in_the_United_States (Canada has had them too, just this list came up first and exists on Wiki, I'm being lazy a little bit lol)

Anyways, there are many things outside (possibly even things I don't know) of loss they could go after Linus over, financial (actually provable) losses is only one, damaging their brand image is another (it's more defamation at that time, unless they plan to sell the name), then there's the hypothetical losses where sales numbers don't go as expected. The first one is unlikely however still able to be sought after (proof can be gotten like the 3rd), the second one is a headache to prove and would have a low chance of success unless LMG really F's up and we would know if they did, the 3rd one is where the real issue lies out of the 3. The reason why the 3rd one is the biggest issue is because during discoveries/court orders they can request LMGs analytics of said video and if their analytics match where their sales slumped that goes against LMG esp if LMG is the only one who gave their laptop the thumbs down, and trust me LMGs analytics don't just show country age gender, tho it doesn't go into great detail either... Remember Linus has a track record of getting laptops sold out once the video hits mainstream, a bad review could potentially do the reverse, and that can be used as evidence in court.

 

Now as you said LMGs greatest strength is the reviewing community and if the bulk say it sucks then sure the company has no grounds to go after them(maybe), but LMG is taking the risk by producing said video before others do their review at that time, less risk by saying "GET OUT LINUS! THIS IS OUR SHOW TODAY! Come back tomorrow when you are wanted and needed here". Their greatest weakness is Framework themselves as they now can't bring it into any video without having a potential bias or being called out on being biased.

 

I know someone who has gone threw the legal system for BS accusations they haven't done(not supreme nor in BC), win or lose you still lose, you lose a ton of money that is (trying to go after them to recoup is usually more lost money). Corporate lawyers are not cheap well the good ones aren't, and if the judge awards costs to someone like Dell who has a small army of lawyers, LMG is potentially F'd, the judge can award costs to any party at any time when asked, sadly... So the real question is what's the risk worth? He only invested 250K, considering his new home is likely worth 2-4 mil (location is key for that) 250k is nothing, but getting a legal bill from a suit with or without merit for whatever reason could be upwards to half of his investment depending on the situation, and that's on top of the already growing legal bill.

 

I do seriously hope it doesn't happen but any suit that could happen in the future is in the hands of LMG not ours, it's their responsibility to make sure their butts are covered.

 

Then there's the FCC or whoever controls this kind of matter in the USA and Canada, I know a legal issue can arise and I know there are laws that prevent the issue that could come up I don't know who enforces it.

 

6 hours ago, tikker said:

I think he should carefully consider his involvement in right to repair related videos and probably stay out of content that features Framework directly if that would even happen. I have less of an issue in simple laptop showcases or reviews however. My reason is that getting upset about Linus presenting content saying "Razer Blade beats Asus Zenbook" is similar to complaining about a silver investor saying he thinks gold is prettier than platinum.

 

The cleanest option would be to never touch on laptops and right to repair again.

I'm fine with right to repair videos as long as he doesn't talk about laptops in general in the video, because laptops are not the #1 issue, phones are right (then there's Apple...)? Removing one of the biggest influencers from that would hurt the movement more than help it. For comparisons like Razer and Asus that's an internal choice if you ask me, but they still have to tread lightly as that's murky waters with Linus thrown in it.

 

Also if Framework gets its own dedicated video so long as Linus announces the investment (or the crew does but Linus isn't involved and they note that) I would love to see any updates about it, because I'm genuinely interested in it and want it to succeed, he's just not allowed to pit it against other laptops unless it loses or is equal to them. It needs all the publicity it can get, but it doesn't need LMG to potentially hurt it either, so maybe Linus could use his new found abilities to convince Frameworks to send laptops to reviewers as long as after the review it's given away to a lucky viewer which gets the product into more hands to talk about it and praise it 

 

6 hours ago, tikker said:

I, however, have faith they have the integrity to handle this should they continue covering laptops in whatever shape or form. Time will tell if that is misplaced. In the mean time I'm sure the man himself is enjoying this war and wondering why people dedicate so much time to argueing about this

Example A why you shouldn't have faith:

 

Has he actually kept his word on this mater? That's a recent issue too. If he can't keep his word on something that could actually matter to consumers how can we trust him to behave on a matter like this? 

 

Nah, he seems to be the kind of person who makes his mind up goes for it and then does damage control when it goes terribly wrong Let's just hope it doesn't cost them too much money in the future, preferably no money. Also us arguing shows we care what happens to LMG  Seriously tho I love the concept I just don't want Linus to go a F it up... He's big enough he could destroy Frameworks with series of bad press... Equally bad press might boom Frameworks too, who knows lol...

[Arika]

what i find funny the most about all these responses, the number of people saying "he can no longer remain unbaised and should step back from all laptop content" are (mostly) the same people that have always said "don't watch LTT for reviews, they make entertainment videos, nothing more".

[Quackers101]

9 minutes ago, Arika S said:

"don't watch LTT for reviews, they make entertainment videos, nothing more".

sort of agree with that statement, as they are more focusing on entertainment than reviews (to a certain degree).

And it should be easier to take the videos if seen as entertainment than a "review". Even if some of their reviews can be pretty nice, currently I feel there is just too much mixing with any sort of reviews they make now and that its more for entertainment or just to get a video done.

[adarw]

On 9/15/2021 at 4:56 PM, Nystemy said:

I work in industry, 

 

On 9/15/2021 at 5:11 PM, GeorgeMKane said:

I used to work in the industry for a while, but don't atm. 

lol this reminded me of this vid...

 

 

[GeorgeMKane]

12 minutes ago, adarw said:

 

lol this reminded me of this vid...

 

 

LMAO! I got a good chuckle out of 0:20 - 0:25.

 

I can quote that, because "I'm totally in the industry of 'copy & paste.' I mean I am the industry."

[adarw]

4 minutes ago, GeorgeMKane said:

LMAO! I got a good chuckle out of 0:20 - 0:25.

 

I can quote that, because "I'm totally in the industry of 'copy & paste.' I mean I am the industry."

this guy is hilarious, i didnt know he exestied until a few weeks ago, been binge watching since lolll

[GeorgeMKane]

1 minute ago, adarw said:

this guy is halarious, i didnt know he exestied until a few weeks ago, been binge watching since lolll

OMG, I'm crying. I've played that part like 4 times now. "You want a sip?"

 

If you like these kind of videos watch Wildcat teach LEGIQN Fortnite. I don't even watch Fortnite videos, but it's the best series of videos I saw last year.

 

Back on topic though. I don't think Linus having his team write and perform reviews on laptops would be out of the question. Especially if the reviews are just done on a sub-LTT channel. I know they still will get like connected, but I don't think they should just write off laptop reviews. I just don't think Linus himself should do them anymore, you know. Why not have someone like Anthony host the review, and have several staff members try out the laptops in the review? *head tilt shrug*

[Rex Hite]

I think LMG's policy should be to waver, hint and delay any decision on how and who does laptop reviews or showcases. When it's time for a prominent laptop to be featured I think Linus should be the one onscreen. This may drive views and engagement because people will be all excited about what he says. How many times LMG can do that successfully only time will tell.

This is so milk-able. And that's entertainment.

[schmism]

On 9/15/2021 at 8:24 PM, schmism said:

 How DO i order a replacement screen and battery up front before this thing goes tits up. So that in 2 years with no support just about the time i want to do upgrades and replacements I can actually dig in to my stash of parts and still have a working device.

I'll answer my own question as it seems to have taken about a month for them to release the "marketplace" were you can buy parts.

https://frame.work/marketplace