US states to accept driver's licence on iPhones

[Beerzerker]

48 minutes ago, Kisai said:

And it's safer than actual cash, because of the potential for counterfeit currency, which is a problem in tourism areas. One of the reasons why $50 and $100 bills are not accepted for small purchases anymore.

 

 

 

Not exactly true - The most counterfitted bill is actually the $20 bill because it's just easier to use one than a $50 or $100 counterfit bill would be.

Doesn't mean those aren't checked, they do get checked but the biggest reason businesses don't like 50's or 100's is that you have guys come in and try to "Break" one of those by using it to pay for a pack of gum or some other small purchase.
That's normally how these counterfits are passed along by those that try to use them and not to mention it puts the store in a tight for change whenever they do that, whether the bill is legit or not.
 

[Jtalk4456]

33 minutes ago, Kisai said:

1. It's safer for YOU, because you can have things you didn't pay for charged back, and some cards like AMEX are better for bigger purchases because they are very customer-favoring.

 

2. It's safer for the bank, because the merchant is on the hook if they don't use chip+pin or NFC.

 

3. It's safer than debit, because (US) debit cards (aka VISA check cards) come straight out of your bank and since they can be processed as credit without a PIN or debit with a PIN at POS, you, the bank account owner can NSF the account.

 

4. The problem is the ass-backwards way the US still holds onto magstripe cards, and online stores still using card numbers for check out.

 

5. When people whine and complain that they can't use cash because it's legal tender, they are playing into the "under the table" game that small stores and businesses play because they can avoid paying taxes if paid in cash. Likewise stores that deal only in cash, are far more likely to be engaging in illegal side-services, like operating a fence for stolen goods.

 

6. There has not been a good excuse for paying with physical cash in the last 2 years, and there's been no reason to use it since 2008, when chip+pin rolled out (the cards had been rolled out since 2004.) Who cares if you statistically spend more if you use credit.

 

7. I myself have enough credit I could buy a car on a credit card. The banks have made no money from me for having their card. All the FUD around credit cards is just that FUD. A Credit card is useful in an emergency, a debit card is not. Cash will only help you in an emergency if you have it, which means you need to have reasonably foreseen the emergency to always be carrying around that much cash.

1. I can do that with my debit. Same protection. Most debits are literally backed by credit companies anyways, so there's literally no difference

2. not really as accounts are backed by credit companies. But really, I couldn't care less if the bank is on the hook. I'm talking my safety not theirs. They've done their risk analysis and it's not my concern

3. And it can be reversed with the same fraud protection, same as if someone got ahold of your cc with apparent vast fortunes of credit limit. 

4. Agreed, the stripe needs to go. Technically it's legally gone, there was a law forcing the change, but implementation has been very slow and most small businesses cannot afford to buy a whole new pos system anytime they want

5. Any proof or statistics on that extreme assumption? Oftentimes the easiest solution is correct, and for small businesses barely floating, they have to pay a fee on every sale when using a cc processor like visa. There's no such fee for cash. taxes is on both methods, so irrelevant in the comparison. Also can you elaborate how you think a large network of small businesses somehow all stealing stuff and selling on the side hasn't been caught yet? Seems a bit farfetched, almost conspiracy bound. and again before you villainize small businesses, please provide some, any evidence of the grand scheme you're accusing them of. I'm not buying it. If there was evidence of this, it would be all over the news, so I'm chalking your accusation up to biased speculation. 

6. The reason is you spend less, save more and are therefore likely to be more prosperous with money. That's a pretty good reason as far as I can tell. If you feel more comfortable with companies trying to wring every cent out of you who spend their time reporting and selling your behaviors and making a score they judge you on based on your ability to go in debt safely, then that's your choice. But if you're gonna play with snakes, don't call me unsafe for staying away from the fangs. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/billhardekopf/2018/07/16/do-people-really-spend-more-with-credit-cards/?sh=27544ce91c19

7. If you think the banks haven't made money on you, I've got some bad news. They run a business. They make money off you. If not interest, it's selling data on your shopping behaviors, it's visa or mastercard getting a fee every time you purchase something. Banks and casinos alike, the house always wins. If you think you've somehow managed to beat the house, then you're addicted to gambling. They might make less money off a responsible person, but they still make their money.

[williamcll]

There seems to be a lot of discussion for a piece of personal information that has always been made and owned by the government.

[leadeater]

2 hours ago, Kisai said:

It's safer for the bank, because the merchant is on the hook if they don't use chip+pin or NFC.

 

It's safer than debit, because (US) debit cards (aka VISA check cards) come straight out of your bank and since they can be processed as credit without a PIN or debit with a PIN at POS, you, the bank account owner can NSF the account.

Debit Card security and Credit Card security is exactly the same, what are you on about. Merchants and Banks also have the same powers and ability to loads charges and dispute charges on Debit Cards and Credit Cards. All Debit purchases are placed in a holding period for the length of regulated charge dispute period so while you might see the funds debited from your account they are NOT released to the merchant until after the withholding period.

 

FYI Debit Cards are all Visa, Master Card etc etc capable, that is the type of card they are. EFPTOS cards are the ones that are not.

 

EFTPOS != Debit Card

 

Quote

EFTPOS stands for Electronic Funds Transfer at Point of Service and the money mostly comes from a bank current account. Debit cards are cards that use the credit card payment system supplied by providers such as Mastercard and VISA but which are tied to a current account. Both types of card use current account funds

 

Other than your point about Debit Cards being linked directly to a bank account nothing else is correct.

[Beerzerker]

7 minutes ago, williamcll said:

There seems to be a lot of discussion for a piece of personal information that has always been made and owned by the government.

The government, yes, private business - No.
All this info becomes accessible with this and more vulnerable to theft as well.

It's really up to the ones that have iPhones to use this but as time goes it will eventually become a standard rather than an option.

[kirashi]

4 hours ago, Kisai said:

Like in Canada the social insurance card is NEVER asked for in any circumstances, but still counts as ID.

Your SIN is confidential. You should not use it as identification or provide it for job applications, rental applications, etc.

https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/services/sin/after-applying.html

https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/services/sin/reports/shared-responsibility.html

 

3 hours ago, Heliian said:

Someone nailed it earlier, you can't force people to buy a phone, millions of Americans probably can't even afford a phone.

Affordability aside, some straight up don't want to use their phone for more than just being "a phone" with the capability to send/receive messages and emails. Additionally, I would never want analog equivalents of certain things to disappear completely, as there are plenty of times where paper copies of things come in handy, like say when your phone runs out of power or when a stores' payment processor goes down due to a number of reasons. Until we develop technology with 100% uptime (impossible), an analog equivalent should always be available to the end user.

 

3 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

Yes but how often do you require to have two id's on you? For me basically only when I go to get my license renewed. My friend doesn't have a driver's license yet he still has a state ID so that is what he uses when he only need one form of ID and it would be weird to use your social security card as your only form of ID. 

Some Canadian provinces (or types of businesses within the province) require two pieces of valid ID. The first is usually required to be a piece of government issued photo ID, and the second must usually have your name embossed on it if it's not another piece of government ID, for instance, a credit card with your name embossed on the front. This varies from province to province depending on the product or service you're trying to buy or acquire, so it's kinda annoying in that respect.

[Kisai]

22 minutes ago, Jtalk4456 said:

1. I can do that with my debit. Same protection. Most debits are literally backed by credit companies anyways, so there's literally no difference

Only in the US. As the US Debit cards are operated by VISA/MC/AMEX, everywhere else they are only used as the interbank system (Maestro, Cirrus), eg you can only use your US debit card in, say, Russia because of the Maestro logo, and only at ATM's with that logo. 

 

I'll save you the effort and just quote Wikipedia

Quote

The Debit Mastercard is a brand of debit cards provided by Mastercard. They use the same systems as standard Mastercard credit cards but they do not use a line of credit to the customer, instead relying on funds that the customer has in their bank account.^[1]

Canada[edit]

Debit Mastercard was launched in Canada in July 2016 with Bank of Montreal. Similar to most Canadian Visa Debit cards, BMO's Debit Mastercard is co-branded with Interac and operates solely over that network for point-of-sale transactions in Canada, but uses the Mastercard network for Internet and international transactions.^[12]

 

And that is how it operates in other countries. The country's own debit card system is used within the country, and only resorts to Maestro/Visa Electron for international purchases. I could get into the complexities of interbank systems here, but suffice it to say, it's not as simple as "the debit card uses the credit card network", depending who issues it, and where you use the card, you may be charged as much as $50 to make a single transaction.

 

 

22 minutes ago, Jtalk4456 said:

2. not really as accounts are backed by credit companies. But really, I couldn't care less if the bank is on the hook. I'm talking my safety not theirs. They've done their risk analysis and it's not my concern

See above. The banks are not willing to take the risk, and that's why you don't see 100 different interbanking systems in the US. Chip+pin, or NFC with a cell phone is safer and less risky, so they would prefer you to make purchases that way, and this is also why banks charge you for accessing your own money.

22 minutes ago, Jtalk4456 said:

3. And it can be reversed with the same fraud protection, same as if someone got ahold of your cc with apparent vast fortunes of credit limit. 

Look on the internet how much of a hassle it is to get NSF fees refunded. Banks want to charge you, "the idiot with an empty bank account" a fee, and the merchant that had to deal with it a fee.

 

22 minutes ago, Jtalk4456 said:

4. Agreed, the stripe needs to go. Technically it's legally gone, there was a law forcing the change, but implementation has been very slow and most small businesses cannot afford to buy a whole new pos system anytime they want

That's just the US dragging it's butt on it. Without a legal mandate to remove the magstripe readers themselves, it will keep going on.

 

22 minutes ago, Jtalk4456 said:

5. Any proof or statistics on that extreme assumption? 

I don't need any. 

https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/corporate/about-canada-revenue-agency-cra/tax-alert/about-underground-economy.html

 

If this wasn't a problem, there wouldn't a snitch page. Also look at Italy and Greece. People out there routinely underpay their taxes.

 

22 minutes ago, Jtalk4456 said:

6. The reason is you spend less, save more...

So... what? If you're someone who has to have a $12 latte every morning, you can save more by simply not having it, or any coffee. You're literately making the avocado toast argument. It's not the card that makes people spend more, it's the user making impulse purchases, which they would make with cash just as easily. But because it's cash, it's much easier to deny yourself the impulse purchase, because it would be embarrassing to order something without paying wouldn't it?

 

22 minutes ago, Jtalk4456 said:

7. If you think the banks haven't made money on you, I've got some bad news. 

Relatively speaking, the banks make their money on giving you crappy interest rates. This is how banks work

 

1. get deposits

2. loan out those deposits

3. return those deposits to you with interest. This is why you have to keep a minimum in the bank account or you get charged fees. Because if you won't let them lend out your money, they are just going to bleed you dry with fees they would have made otherwise.

 

Except when they are loaning your money out on 30% credit cards and low-interest rate loans, they are pocketing the entire difference, which is why leaving cash in a bank account, is just losing you money. Investing it at least gets you something higher than a 0.1% interest rate when the inflation rate is 2%.

 

Relatively speaking, the debit card is the worst pain in the behind to use. Between being limited to the number of transactions you can use, or fees for having the account in the first place, you are literately punished for accessing your own money. At least the credit card has none of that. One transaction from the checking account, and the credit card is paid off.

[leadeater]

3 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Only in the US. As the US Debit cards are operated by VISA/MC/AMEX, everywhere else they are only used as the interbank system (Maestro, Cirrus), eg you can only use your US debit card in, say, Russia because of the Maestro logo, and only at ATM's with that logo. 

Wrong, Debit Cards use the international Credit Card payment system.

 

I have a Visa Debit Card issued by my local NZ owned and operated (since forever) Bank.

[Kisai]

20 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Other than your point about Debit Cards being linked directly to a bank account nothing else is correct.

 

Once again, everyone is making the assumption of how it works in the US is how it works everywhere. It does not.

 

In the US, and the US alone, VISA, Mastercard, and AMEX own and operate the DEBIT and CREDIT card interbanking system (Cirrus, Plus). Outside the US, it's the Maestro/Visa Electron system. Canada has a system called Interac. In Canada, you have never been able to use your debit card online with systems that demand a credit card. So if you wanted to buy off a US website, your debit card is worthless.

 

It's only over time that some of the banks started offering VISA Debit, those that also were on the PLUS ATM interbank network that allowed those debit cards to work with US merchants.  You know the SQUARE device? You can't use it with Interac cards. You can only use it with Credit cards in Canada. In the US you can use with US debit cards and they will be run as credit transactions.

 

I'm not sure how it is for you in New Zealand, but all US transactions can be run as CREDIT or DEBIT, and only the DEBIT asks for a PIN. If you use your US debit card on a Canadian POS device, it will ALWAYS be run as a credit transaction. This is first hand experience.

[leadeater]

9 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Once again, everyone is making the assumption of how it works in the US is how it works everywhere. It does not.

No I'm not, it's how it works literally everywhere. I describe how it is here in NZ and it is the same everywhere. You are literally confusing EFTPOS with Debit.

 

Now I could understand why you are because a Debit Card is most often ALSO an EFTPOS card and it's up to the merchant as to the type of transaction they use with the card, one major supermarket here processes my card through Visa and the other major chain as an EFTPOS transaction. Neither method incurs me any extra cost or fees at all.

 

I actually really couldn't care about the US system as it actually has zero impact in this discussion. Debit Card is Debit Card and uses the Credit Card payment system always and it's a specific type of card. You conflating it with EFTPOS is no better than conflating Credit Cards as Cash IOU's.

 

Edit:

P.S. Merchants can know if it's a Debit Card or Credit Card btw and can decline Debit Cards to be used, that's their choice or it may be the result of local regulations not allowing the usage of Debit Cards for certain transactions. These are all always local differences to do with banking regulations and nothing to do with how transactions are actually handled and processed. For a long time car rental companies here wouldn't accept Debit Cards because regulations did not allow charge back fees to exceeded account funds so if you stole or damaged the car or w/e else and need to apply a charge to the card they would be left SOL. That's changed.

[Kisai]

39 minutes ago, leadeater said:

No I'm not, it's how it works literally everywhere. I describe how it is here in NZ and it is the same everywhere. You are literally confusing EFTPOS with Debit.

And I'm telling you that is NOT the case. If I take my US debit card to the Canadian bank, they can not access the US account and can only run it as a cash-advance against the CREDIT mode. They literately showed that to me on the bank computer. That incurs extra costs.

 

New Zealand != Canada != US

 

EFTPOS is "DEBIT" here. Your EFTPOS(tm) network in New Zealand is NOT the INTERAC system in Canada. 

 

39 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Now I could understand why you are because a Debit Card is most often ALSO an EFTPOS card and it's up to the merchant as to the type of transaction they use with the card, one major supermarket here processed my card through Visa and the other major chain as an EFTPOS transaction. Neither method incurs me any extra cost or fees at all.

Look, I'll just tell you straight up that 1 of the 6 cards I have is a bank ATM card that can not be used for debit. This is because the accounts are not "savings" or "checking" accounts which are the only accounts EFTPOS can access.

 

 

39 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I actually really couldn't care about the US system as it actually has zero impact in this discussion. Debit is Debit and uses the Credit Card payment system always and it's a specific type of card. You conflating it with EFTPOS is no better than conflating Credit Cards as Cash IOU's.

It has a bigger impact than you're willing to concede. Look at the back of your debit card. It likely has PLUS, CIRRUS, EXCHANGE, ACCEL, VISA Electron, or some other logo that indicates it can be used with Cirrus (Mastercard) or Plus (Visa). If it has the logo it can be used as a bank card. It does not guarantee it can be used as debit (EFTPOS) card.

 

Credit cards often only carry their own network logo's. Canadian Mastercard's carry Interac logo's, which means, yes you can use the CREDIT card as a DEBIT card with a merchant that only accepts DEBIT cards.

 

So I'm sorry if you're confused about the matter, but the fact is, US debit cards are a different animal from all other countries debit card networks. US debit cards always work because they ONLY have Mastercard or VISA on them. All international cards have CIRRUS on them, which is the Mastercard interbank network. In Canada, if it doesn't have an INTERAC logo, it's not a debit card, and merchants will only run it as a credit card transaction, which means your card has to have MASTERCARD or VISA on it to work.

 

 

This is why I use the credit card. It's less of a pain in the behind, you don't need to check which ATM or interbank network it works with, as long as the merchant accepts Mastercard, it works.  What still sucks about going to the US is that many merchants still mag-stripe swipe cards. Where in Canada they would hand you the POS terminal for you to insert or tap your card. US merchants, just whip your card through the mag stripe reader and you're done.

 

Like I can't even think of any time I've been asked to enter the PIN to the debit card in the US. 

[TudorF]

Mixing official affairs with private corporations? Bad idea.

Showing your ID is an act required by someone representing the state. It's part of a citizen's minimum requirements.

This act of official authentication between you and the state shouldn't be owned and captured by a private corporation.

Not to mention that the state shouldn't expect citizens to own a phone, so I really hope this isn't a slippery slope to becoming a requirement.

 

I dislike how these corporations are trying to infiltrate themselves in every nook and corner of your life, so that your life becomes impossible without them.

It should be possible for someone to live without having any involvement with any corporation at all.

So, a definite noper.

[leadeater]

53 minutes ago, Kisai said:

And I'm telling you that is NOT the case. If I take my US debit card to the Canadian bank, they can not access the US account and can only run it as a cash-advance against the CREDIT mode. They literately showed that to me on the bank computer. That incurs extra costs.

Correct, I didn't say it was different. That transaction is being processed by the Credit Card network. Why is this so hard for you? It incurs an extra cost because it's an international credit card transaction subject to international transaction and currency conversion fees.

 

If the card has a Visa, Master Card or whoever else's logo on it then it's a [Credit Card Company] Debit Card and that is a specific type of card. These cards are almost always also an EFTPOS card, or yes w/e your system is called.

 

Here is my bank's card, TSB is an NZ owned and operated bank and has been forever.

 

 

Here is another bank that operates here, this is an Australian bank called Westpac.

 

 

Every bank here ONLY issues either a Visa Debit Card or a Mastercard Debit Card. These are also EFTPOS cards. It's been this way since before 2000, other than the only issuing of these Debit Cards which I think has been the case since around ~2006. There used to be what we would call EFTPOS cards or Bank Cards separate from Visa/Mastercard Debit Cards but these just simply don't get issued anymore.

 

payWave is the only way to use these cards without a PIN, pre-pandemic restricted to $80 maximum and post pandemic $200 (will be reduced back to $80) with a maximum total combined payWave per day.

 

2 hours ago, Kisai said:

Only in the US. As the US Debit cards are operated by VISA/MC/AMEX, everywhere else they are only used as the interbank system (Maestro, Cirrus), eg you can only use your US debit card in, say, Russia because of the Maestro logo, and only at ATM's with that logo. 

If this is a US only thing then please explain how my country has been doing it this way for longer than they have?

 

All the stuff about PINs or lack there of, US banking system problems only. If they want to allow transactions without PINs of any type then they can so choose, it's insecure for sure but that's their system. My Visa Debit Card either has to be used as contactless payWave or inserted (not swiped) and PIN entered for all in person usage of the card and that applies whether the merchant is processing as EFTPOS or Credit Card (no fee within NZ).

 

US is NOT the ONLY country like you say it is, there are MANY just like mine and Australia but sounds like Canada is not one of them.

 

I have exactly one card and one card only from my bank.

[Brooksie359]

2 hours ago, kirashi said:

Your SIN is confidential. You should not use it as identification or provide it for job applications, rental applications, etc.

https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/services/sin/after-applying.html

https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/services/sin/reports/shared-responsibility.html

 

Affordability aside, some straight up don't want to use their phone for more than just being "a phone" with the capability to send/receive messages and emails. Additionally, I would never want analog equivalents of certain things to disappear completely, as there are plenty of times where paper copies of things come in handy, like say when your phone runs out of power or when a stores' payment processor goes down due to a number of reasons. Until we develop technology with 100% uptime (impossible), an analog equivalent should always be available to the end user.

 

Some Canadian provinces (or types of businesses within the province) require two pieces of valid ID. The first is usually required to be a piece of government issued photo ID, and the second must usually have your name embossed on it if it's not another piece of government ID, for instance, a credit card with your name embossed on the front. This varies from province to province depending on the product or service you're trying to buy or acquire, so it's kinda annoying in that respect.

That is absolutely crazy. I honestly don't even need my ID for the most part let alone two on a day to day basis. I mean granted if I get pulled over by the police I would need it but barring that I hardly ever use my normal ID let alone something like a social security card which is rarely needed. The fact that you need two id's in Canada is a but weird to me. This begs the question if they would accept to digital forms of ID on your phone then? Or would you have to have two physical copies or one physical and one digital copy?

[Roswell]

On 9/2/2021 at 11:13 PM, Brooksie359 said:

I'm sorry but I would rather not have my social security card digital because if a hacker were to get my ssn then it would be a huge problem. With a paper card you can keep it in a safe place and only use it when you need it. I hardly ever have to use the physical card so I don't really see how having my ssn number on my phone would make my life any more convenient. It would likely just make losing my phone or having my phone compromised 1000% worse. 

Your social is very likely already out in the wild via countless data breaches over the years. Hell, T-Mobile just recently leaked 80 million of them which is about 35% of the adult population.

[atxcyclist]

I'm good just bringing my physical license with me, I've had one in my wallet for 20+ years as it is. Outside of certain types of purchases needing a copy of my ID, I don't really need it stored.

[CarlBar]

I can confirm that @leadeater is correct as far as the UK is concerned. They issue Visa/Mastercard debit cards that can be used at any chip and pin in the country. Running into a store that didn't accept my card but would accept some other card has never happened.

 

We have both contactless and pin entry available, though even with an amount inside the very low contactless limit , (was £30, raised to £45 at the start of the pandemic), t will randomly ask you to intsert it and put your pin in as a safety measure.

 

Canada and the US may do it differently, but as far as how i and many in the UK, (and many other places besides), handle non-cash payments it works as described.That naturally influences when where and how often we use cash.

[RejZoR]

12 hours ago, Distinctly Average said:

Moreover, if your credit card or any other ID is on a phone then it has to be unlocked to use it. If a credit card is nicked then anyone can make contactless payments using it. So from that aspect the phone is more secure. Same goes for digital ID such as a driving license or at the airport. The system requires you to be present at point of processing. You have to provide Face ID or thumbprint at that point which means you have to be there. Then a digital signature is shared, not the ID, card or licence details. The digital signature is then cross checked with the security system and your details approved or denied. So again, more secure. The more I think about it the more I feel this is a good thing.

 

Still find it a little odd that the government have not approved an android alternative. From that point of view it seems to give Apple and unfair market advantage. Not seen any news of it arriving here in the UK yet.

Contactless cards have limitations too. It's limited by one single purchase value before asking for PIN, amount of those in certain timeframe and even location. Places where you're a regular won't bug you for PIN, but if you suddenly buy something totally outside of your regular locations, it'll ask for a PIN even for just 3€ purchase. Been there, seen that. It also sometimes does that randomly.

[leadeater]

6 hours ago, RejZoR said:

Contactless cards have limitations too. It's limited by one single purchase value before asking for PIN, amount of those in certain timeframe and even location. Places where you're a regular won't bug you for PIN, but if you suddenly buy something totally outside of your regular locations, it'll ask for a PIN even for just 3€ purchase. Been there, seen that. It also sometimes does that randomly.

Also another benefit is that if you load your banks App on to your phone that has NFC capability you can clone your card on to the phone then use it for your contactless payments rather than the card, and it functions the same way and will do all the random asking for PINs etc etc.

 

The banking Apps also let you suspend the card as well or change the account it debits from, so I know people that transfer funds to that account for every transaction so it only has the funds which they intend to use at that time and then all other times it has $0. Also before anyone brings up declined transactions, here banks are not allowed to charge fees for POS transaction declines. Direct Debits are the only ones they are allowed to charge a fee for when there is insufficient funds to process the transaction and you shouldn't be using the same account for those as your every day card anyway.

 

If you want 16 accounts then no extra fees, if you want to create and destroy 16 accounts using the app every day also no extra fee. I don't know about other countries but here we stamp out non-sensical fees that simply cannot be justified, consumer protection comes first here, so our banks have really good computer systems so things like this don't cost them either.

[Jtalk4456]

15 hours ago, kirashi said:

Your SIN is confidential.

I sure hope so. I don't need the government knowing every time I lied to my parents XD

15 hours ago, Kisai said:

1. Only in the US. As the US Debit cards are operated by VISA/MC/AMEX, everywhere else they are only used as the interbank system (Maestro, Cirrus), eg you can only use your US debit card in, say, Russia because of the Maestro logo, and only at ATM's with that logo. 

I'll save you the effort and just quote Wikipedia

 

2. See above. The banks are not willing to take the risk, and that's why you don't see 100 different interbanking systems in the US. Chip+pin, or NFC with a cell phone is safer and less risky, so they would prefer you to make purchases that way, and this is also why banks charge you for accessing your own money.

Look on the internet how much of a hassle it is to get NSF fees refunded. Banks want to charge you, "the idiot with an empty bank account" a fee, and the merchant that had to deal with it a fee.

 

3. That's just the US dragging it's butt on it. Without a legal mandate to remove the magstripe readers themselves, it will keep going on.

 

4. I don't need any. 

https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/corporate/about-canada-revenue-agency-cra/tax-alert/about-underground-economy.html

If this wasn't a problem, there wouldn't a snitch page. Also look at Italy and Greece. People out there routinely underpay their taxes.

 

5. So... what? If you're someone who has to have a $12 latte every morning, you can save more by simply not having it, or any coffee. You're literately making the avocado toast argument. It's not the card that makes people spend more, it's the user making impulse purchases, which they would make with cash just as easily. But because it's cash, it's much easier to deny yourself the impulse purchase, because it would be embarrassing to order something without paying wouldn't it?

 

6. Relatively speaking, the banks make their money on giving you crappy interest rates. This is how banks work

Except when they are loaning your money out on 30% credit cards and low-interest rate loans, they are pocketing the entire difference, which is why leaving cash in a bank account, is just losing you money. Investing it at least gets you something higher than a 0.1% interest rate when the inflation rate is 2%.

 

7. Relatively speaking, the debit card is the worst pain in the behind to use. Between being limited to the number of transactions you can use, or fees for having the account in the first place, you are literately punished for accessing your own money. At least the credit card has none of that. One transaction from the checking account, and the credit card is paid off.

1. I'm in the US, and I won't pretend to know international finance, but there's still insurance covering debit cards even if the system isn't visa. Standard finance regulation

2. I was talking about credit vs debit and protections, but you seem to be talking about the stripe vs the chip. I don't think anyone is arguing the stripe is better, but that's a card reading technology, not the difference between debit and credit. Those are very different discussions

3. Actually there is a mandate, but it's been slow to enforce because how are you going to force a mom and pop shop to spend thousands they don't have on a POS system.

4. Actually you do... just because something is a crime on the books and the gov says the crime is bad doesn't mean everyone is a criminal. You're making vast leaps from crime existing and government having a term for it to most people doing it. You have no logical reason to assume it's a vast problem. You have only shown it is a crime, which we already knew. Many chainsaws have a warning sticker on them to not hold on the cutting side while operating. It's not a normal occurrence, but the warning is still there.

5. Actually it's scientifically proven. Sure the user impulse is part of it, but that impulse is normally regulated by the emotional pain of giving up money. When you use debit, you don't see the number and feel less of the pain. When you use credit, you don't see the number, and you don't even feel the pain of losing money until later in the month, assuming you even pay it off every month, which few do. I'm not saying the consumer isn't part of the equation. I'm saying the cc companies do their research and they use whatever they can to gain that equation. This is not me assuming or accusing, there's science on this. It's an average so of course there will be someone less affected by the tactic and someone having a gambling addiction, but overall, statistically, you WILL spend more than you would have with cash. These companies use psychology against people. it's not speculation or assumption, it's well known from many studies. They make it easier to spend money on purpose.

6. So using a credit card where I either pay up to 30% or don't pay is somehow better than getting paid interest from a bank account? Also my bank makes a lot more interest than that, though there will be good and bad banks. many don't charge for checking, mine doesn't. IDK how you're equating a credit card with investing, but credit cards are for spending money. You don't gain by using a credit card, you either lose a little or lose a lot. the house always wins.

7. I don't have a limited number of transactions, I have no fees for having or using my account. no one is punishing me. The credit card on the other hand leads to spending more money which DOES impact me and punishes me for having and using it. IDK about other countries so I won't speak for them, but here, there is no pain in the behind when using a debit card. And seeing how credit card debt in the US is almost a trillion as of 2019, I'd say credit cards are a very big pain in the butt. They ruin people's lives. 

[Kisai]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

 

If you want 16 accounts then no extra fees, if you want to create and destroy 16 accounts using the app every day also no extra fee. I don't know about other countries but here we stamp out non-sensical fees that simply cannot be justified, consumer protection comes first here, so our banks have really good computer systems so things like this don't cost them either.

That's another difference.

CANADA:

https://www.bmo.com/pdf/Agreements_Bank_Plans_and_Fees_for_Everyday_Banking.pdf

 

US:

https://www.bmoharris.com/main/personal/checking-accounts/

 

Summary:

"0$ fee checking account, $25 minimum" - US

"6000$ minimum deposit to waive account fee" - Canada

 

Checking accounts are not interest bearing in US or Canada. At least not unless you have $60,000 to tie up in it.

 

Anyway, banks are abusive in Canada, none of them offer anything remotely comparable to US banks, even when they are the same bank (BMO/BMO-Harris, TD, RBC.) Compare to the credit union:

 

In the fine print however you'll see that the reason it's "no-fee" is because there is no interest. The same with the American bank's no-fee account. 

 

This is also getting beyond the scope of this thread. The Credit Union was the LAST one to sign on to Apple Pay. The AMEX Card was the first one. So since the two cards I use for paying for things are supported by Apple Pay, I can leave the cards at home.

 

So if I could leave everything at home, that would be nice. But that requires the drivers license/medical card to be available on the phone.

[AnonymousGuy]

I'm fine with getting closer to not needing to carry a wallet anymore.  I already was travelling with a phone-wallet case where I just needed 1 credit card and my ID.