US states to accept driver's licence on iPhones

[RedRound2]

National IDs in many countries are already a thing. I dont think Apple allowing people to store their driver's license changes anything (the topic of the thread).

In my country, everything is linked to the national ID. It's really not news here.

[Fasterthannothing]

15 hours ago, leadeater said:

This doesn't seem like a good idea...

 

In my country, basically yes. Cash is near as much is dead. That's one of the things people from the US or other countries where cash usage is bigger or more common comment on. In my opinion it's such a hassle to use cash I actively avoid it and will just ask that I do not get the change when I try and get rid of it.

 After the pandemic cash is basically dead in America too. Lots of places stopped accepting cash for sanitary reasons and only have card readers or if they do accept cash they almost always don't have enough change so they automatically round up your bill. I used to pay for a ton of stuff in cash now not so much.

[leadeater]

2 hours ago, mr moose said:

I have tin beside my bed and I just dump my coin in it every night.  It always tally's somewhere between $400 and $700 every 3-5Months.     The thought of refusing that much several times a year sounds bonkers.

Well for me the number of times cash/notes has touched my hands is twice per year, cash from my grandparents for birthday and Christmas. Literally the only source of cash. So for me it would total less than $5.

 

I do not use cash.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

Well for me the number of times cash/notes has touched me hands is twice per year, cash from my grandparents for birthday and Christmas. Literally the only source of cash. So for me it would total less than $5.

Bugger me, if my expendable budget (cash income) was that low I'd die. All day to day living is electronic. 

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

Bugger me, if my expendable budget (cash income) was that low I'd die. All day to day living is electronic. 

?? Use Debit Card? I'm talking cash not money/funds. I could set fire to the cash I touch per year and it would have almost zero noticeable difference to how much I can spend

[mr moose]

4 minutes ago, leadeater said:

?? Use Debit Card? I'm talking cash not money/funds. I could set fire to the cash I touch per year and it would have almost zero noticeable difference to how much I can spend

Yeah, I'm talking strictly paper in my wallet.  I have no debts (literally none),  So about a quarter of my income is odd job cash which I just blow on whatever. 

[leadeater]

2 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Yeah, I'm talking strictly paper in my wallet.  I have no debts (literally none),  So about a quarter of my income is odd job cash which I just blow on whatever. 

Well considering less than $100 per year is how much cash I'd cycle through it would be impossible to lose as much in change as you would. I tend to just buy something as close to the value of the note I have and then say keep the change which is usually no more than a few dollars.

 

I mean, I forgot I had a $50 note in my wallet for about 2 years so...

[Brooksie359]

4 hours ago, Distinctly Average said:

Your social security number is almost certainly on a number of systems already.  This I could be just one local copy on your own device then encrypted for your backup. I would have thought it is a lot harder to get hold of should you be burgled or mugged. In those cases all the their needs to do is read your number.

 

I also know that people do store images of their license, PIN numbers, bank details, SSN and more on their devices already, but often in less secure ways such as simply taking an image or as numbers in their phone book. These can be left unencrypted in backups so are vulnerable. Having a system that recognises these and protects them by default surely has to be better?

I think you are missing an important detail here. You are basically making it so you are carrying around a digital form of your ssn card all day every day when you have your phone on you. If you aren't using your social security card why would you have it in your wallet? I have had to use my card a total of 2 times this year and these were trips where the chances of being in danger of losing it where very small. Now compare that to having a digital copy on your phone all the time and you can readily see how this would be of a greater risk. Also having a picture of your social security card currently doesn't serve as an social security card so idk what idiot would have that on their phone already but they likely aren't the best baseline to use. 

[circeseye]

hmmm
gov...we cant unlock iphones, we need a way to see their phones
well why dont we put drivers licence on their phone. that way its unlocked when we ask to see it

[Taf the Ghost]

There's an angle about "why Biometrics are actually bad for security" that gets reflected in this. Yes, it may be less things to carry, but you also now have a single point of failure introduced into the lives of a lot of people. A lost or stolen phone is now a massive problem.

[Beerzerker]

14 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

There's an angle about "why Biometrics are actually bad for security" that gets reflected in this. Yes, it may be less things to carry, but you also now have a single point of failure introduced into the lives of a lot of people. A lost or stolen phone is now a massive problem.

Lost, stolen or even hacked/phone cloned TBH.
Convenient? - Yes.
Good idea for YOU in terms of personal security? - No.

And I still use cash alot of the time.
I do use a card as well and while that's fine, when I'm using cash all I have to do to know how much I have to spend is look in my wallet. 
No need to wonder about a credit limit or balance statement, bad check, card getting declined or even a vendor's/store's card machine having a really bad day. 
 

[Taf the Ghost]

3 minutes ago, Beerzerker said:

Lost, stolen or even hacked/phone cloned TBH.
Convenient? - Yes.
Good idea for YOU in terms of personal security? - No.

And I still use cash alot of the time.
I do use a card as well and while that's fine, when I'm using cash all I have to do to know how much I have to spend is look in my wallet. 
No need to wonder about a credit limit or balance statement, bad check, card getting declined or even a vendor's/store's card machine having a really bad day. 
 

The "War on Cash" is very real, though it's not really about Control. That's a side product. It's really about moving the profit from currency movement from everyone to the pockets of those that control the Banks. It's actually surprisingly petty why it's happened.

[Beerzerker]

Many have figured it out like I have already that the "Future" of currency IS crypto or some form of it.
The so-called thing about it being "Untraceable" is going away too because once these gov's start making their own versions of it, the old crypto stuff will just be gone as in it's no good (Legal Tender) for anything. 

[Taf the Ghost]

1 hour ago, The Unknown Voice said:

When Govts Outlaw Cash, only Outlaws will have Cash....

 

 

It gets really fun when you ask why "Money Laundering" is a crime.

[Kisai]

7 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

If you aren't using your social security card why would you have it in your wallet? 

Because many times it counts as "ID", because it's the taxpayer ID card.

 

Like in Canada the social insurance card is NEVER asked for in any circumstances, but still counts as ID. So if someone does not have a drivers license or credit card, that is the only thing they are going to have when some place demands "two forms of ID", next to any medical insurance card. When voting here, one form of ID has to have a photo, otherwise you have to bring someone else who does (like your siblings or parents.)

 

 

[Kisai]

3 hours ago, Beerzerker said:

Lost, stolen or even hacked/phone cloned TBH.
Convenient? - Yes.
Good idea for YOU in terms of personal security? - No.

And I still use cash alot of the time.
I do use a card as well and while that's fine, when I'm using cash all I have to do to know how much I have to spend is look in my wallet. 

Sounds like you use cash like a 90 year old. Because in the 1920's people were hired to do work at factories and construction if they showed up, and if you showed up late, you don't get to work that day. They paid people daily.

3 hours ago, Beerzerker said:

No need to wonder about a credit limit or balance statement, bad check, card getting declined or even a vendor's/store's card machine having a really bad day. 
 

Here's the thing. Use a credit card, pay off the balance, and you don't have to worry about it. The credit card is safer than the debit card, and safer than a check to all businesses. The only businesses that operate on cash-only are either:

a) Doing something illegal

b) Lack the infrastructure to handle cards (eg 3-day conventions inside a building with garbage cellular service), and even then they can still take the risk and do the purchase offline with the card.

c) Paying kids to mow your lawn, walk the dog, or babysit, because they're not old enough to have an account, and not responsible enough to have credit.

 

And you can see where the problem lies in all of these.

- "side jobs" aka "under the table", is to dodge taxes, or take advantage of a labor pool that is undocumented.

- lack of infrastructure is not an excuse when you could potentially be making 10x the amount of sales, that offline sale mode is something you should be risking if there is enough profit to to eat the occasional bad card. 

- Paying kids to do labor is questionable at best, illegal at worst.

 

[Jtalk4456]

On 9/2/2021 at 3:00 PM, StDragon said:

And because everything is bigger in Texas, it would require its own app 

the app would be hosted on a server in texas that will stop working the next time it snows XD

On 9/2/2021 at 2:18 PM, Distinctly Average said:

My thoughts

While some will see this as a further erosion of privacy I personally think we are way past that stage. I am not adverse to having a National ID for instance like much of  Europe already have. Some countries already have all their health data stored on a smart card for instance and they think it odd that we in the UK don’t have that. To me, this kind of technology hopefully will make life easier, and more secure. What I do find odd is that only Apple is mentioned, not Android. Will there be a version for Android too? Is that platform not deemed secure enough by the US? There really is a lot tho think about before I decide whether this is a good or bad idea.

I'm not too familiar with the security side so I won't speculate there, but as far as a digital id goes, I'm all down! What this allows for is the end of the voter ID squabble. The reason people fight against voter id is because lower economic citizens might not be able to afford the id, preventing those populations from voting, disproportionally affecting black and latino. I'm assuming the digital ID would be free, and if so, that would alleviate the concern of voter id being restrictive to lower socioeconomic groups. It wouldn't be perfect as some may not have cell phones, but it would help

[Jtalk4456]

10 minutes ago, Kisai said:

1. Here's the thing. Use a credit card, pay off the balance, and you don't have to worry about it. The credit card is safer than the debit card, and safer than a check to all businesses.

credit isn't any safer than debit though. and you tend to spend more statistically even if you pay off the balance. So while I wouldn't go around with a checkbook anymore, credit cards are not the answer

[Heliian]

Someone nailed it earlier, you can't force people to buy a phone, millions of Americans probably can't even afford a phone.

 

Maybe the government will give away free phones?  Muahahahahahaa.

[IkeaGnome]

8 minutes ago, Heliian said:

Someone nailed it earlier, you can't force people to buy a phone, millions of Americans probably can't even afford a phone.

 

Maybe the government will give away free phones?  Muahahahahahaa.

https://www.assurancewireless.com

[Brooksie359]

59 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Because many times it counts as "ID", because it's the taxpayer ID card.

 

Like in Canada the social insurance card is NEVER asked for in any circumstances, but still counts as ID. So if someone does not have a drivers license or credit card, that is the only thing they are going to have when some place demands "two forms of ID", next to any medical insurance card. When voting here, one form of ID has to have a photo, otherwise you have to bring someone else who does (like your siblings or parents.)

 

 

Yes but how often do you require to have two id's on you? For me basically only when I go to get my license renewed. My friend doesn't have a driver's license yet he still has a state ID so that is what he uses when he only need one form of ID and it would be weird to use your social security card as your only form of ID. 

[Beerzerker]

4 hours ago, Kisai said:

1: Sounds like you use cash like a 90 year old. Because in the 1920's people were hired to do work at factories and construction if they showed up, and if you showed up late, you don't get to work that day. They paid people daily.

 

2: Here's the thing. Use a credit card, pay off the balance, and you don't have to worry about it. The credit card is safer than the debit card, and safer than a check to all businesses. The only businesses that operate on cash-only are either:

a) Doing something illegal

b) Lack the infrastructure to handle cards (eg 3-day conventions inside a building with garbage cellular service), and even then they can still take the risk and do the purchase offline with the card.

c) Paying kids to mow your lawn, walk the dog, or babysit, because they're not old enough to have an account, and not responsible enough to have credit.

 

3: And you can see where the problem lies in all of these.

- "side jobs" aka "under the table", is to dodge taxes, or take advantage of a labor pool that is undocumented.

- lack of infrastructure is not an excuse when you could potentially be making 10x the amount of sales, that offline sale mode is something you should be risking if there is enough profit to to eat the occasional bad card. 

- Paying kids to do labor is questionable at best, illegal at worst.

 

1: I'll take that as a compliment.
Just because it's "Old" doesn't mean it's stupid or doesn't work and I can promise you alot of the old guys ARE smart in ways we only wish we knew - And the 1920's has nothing to do with it.

2: And the thing here is once it's paid for, it's done as in the end of it.

No additional costs making it more expensive per item or for the purchase itself as in a $20 item or purchase winds up costing you about $25 or maybe more once it's actually paid for, via your card payments;

No need to check your credit line/limit to see how much you've got left;

No need to remember to pay on the card if you don't have things setup for "Autodraft" - Which would probrably be smart to do anyway in most cases with a card;

Fees to pay out just to even do business;

The risk of having someone get the card info or the card itself and use it, charging it way up and leaving YOU holding the bag and balance in at least some cases - Plus all the other fun (NOT) stuff that causes;

Things such as terminal fees or have it affect your credit score, which is a rating of how profitable you are to a bank.

And that's just for credit cards, debit cards aren't much better, esp if it has the VISA logo on it because those CAN be used just like a credit card in many cases and places.

BTW, ever wondered why if you pay stuff off early, it still affects your credit rating in a bad way?
You'd think it would help to pay things off early but it's the other way around in how they look at it, which is what counts. If they can't make the full amount of interest (Profit) off of you, they don't like you as much and that's reflected in how you are scored.

And don't think I didn't notice how you equivalated cash to things illegal as the first lettered point (A) you made - That IS true with some things but it doesn't make cash itself "Bad".....
And you can't deny crypto can and is used for illegal stuff as well, because it is.

*And the entire point of your statements in total seems to make out that cash itself is just bad, which it isn't. *

3: And all that goes right back to the part I set between *'s I used to indicate this.

I personally don't have a problem with cards, they ARE handy but I'm not going to base my entire way of paying for stuff around them.

If you don't like cash, that's entirely up to you but don't make it into something it's really not.
People, not the cash itself is what makes it bad if it is bad at all. 
It is what it is and nothing more.

[Kisai]

1 hour ago, Jtalk4456 said:

credit isn't any safer than debit though. and you tend to spend more statistically even if you pay off the balance. So while I wouldn't go around with a checkbook anymore, credit cards are not the answer

It's safer for YOU, because you can have things you didn't pay for charged back, and some cards like AMEX are better for bigger purchases because they are very customer-favoring.

 

It's safer for the bank, because the merchant is on the hook if they don't use chip+pin or NFC.

 

It's safer than debit, because (US) debit cards (aka VISA check cards) come straight out of your bank and since they can be processed as credit without a PIN or debit with a PIN at POS, you, the bank account owner can NSF the account.

 

It's safer than actual checks (which I've seen nobody use in a store in over a decade), because NSF potential.

 

And it's safer than actual cash, because of the potential for counterfeit currency, which is a problem in tourism areas. One of the reasons why $50 and $100 bills are not accepted for small purchases anymore.

 

The problem is the ass-backwards way the US still holds onto magstripe cards, and online stores still using card numbers for check out.

 

When people whine and complain that they can't use cash because it's legal tender, they are playing into the "under the table" game that small stores and businesses play because they can avoid paying taxes if paid in cash. Likewise stores that deal only in cash, are far more likely to be engaging in illegal side-services, like operating a fence for stolen goods.

 

There has not been a good excuse for paying with physical cash in the last 2 years, and there's been no reason to use it since 2008, when chip+pin rolled out (the cards had been rolled out since 2004.)

 

Who cares if you statistically spend more if you use credit. You're not going to embarrass yourself by trying to buy something with an empty bank account or trying to buy a computer with only a $20 in the wallet. People who lack self-control, and impulse buy, should probably have cards with limits set to only what they can reasonably be responsible for. 

 

I myself have enough credit I could buy a car on a credit card. The banks have made no money from me for having their card. All the FUD around credit cards is just that FUD. A Credit card is useful in an emergency, a debit card is not. Cash will only help you in an emergency if you have it, which means you need to have reasonably foreseen the emergency to always be carrying around that much cash.

 

If you're robbed a credit card can be canceled, cash is gone forever.

 

[Distinctly Average]

33 minutes ago, Kisai said:

It's safer for YOU, because you can have things you didn't pay for charged back, and some cards like AMEX are better for bigger purchases because they are very customer-favoring.

 

It's safer for the bank, because the merchant is on the hook if they don't use chip+pin or NFC.

 

It's safer than debit, because (US) debit cards (aka VISA check cards) come straight out of your bank and since they can be processed as credit without a PIN or debit with a PIN at POS, you, the bank account owner can NSF the account.

 

It's safer than actual checks (which I've seen nobody use in a store in over a decade), because NSF potential.

 

And it's safer than actual cash, because of the potential for counterfeit currency, which is a problem in tourism areas. One of the reasons why $50 and $100 bills are not accepted for small purchases anymore.

 

The problem is the ass-backwards way the US still holds onto magstripe cards, and online stores still using card numbers for check out.

 

When people whine and complain that they can't use cash because it's legal tender, they are playing into the "under the table" game that small stores and businesses play because they can avoid paying taxes if paid in cash. Likewise stores that deal only in cash, are far more likely to be engaging in illegal side-services, like operating a fence for stolen goods.

 

There has not been a good excuse for paying with physical cash in the last 2 years, and there's been no reason to use it since 2008, when chip+pin rolled out (the cards had been rolled out since 2004.)

 

Who cares if you statistically spend more if you use credit. You're not going to embarrass yourself by trying to buy something with an empty bank account or trying to buy a computer with only a $20 in the wallet. People who lack self-control, and impulse buy, should probably have cards with limits set to only what they can reasonably be responsible for. 

 

I myself have enough credit I could buy a car on a credit card. The banks have made no money from me for having their card. All the FUD around credit cards is just that FUD. A Credit card is useful in an emergency, a debit card is not. Cash will only help you in an emergency if you have it, which means you need to have reasonably foreseen the emergency to always be carrying around that much cash.

 

If you're robbed a credit card can be canceled, cash is gone forever.

 

Moreover, if your credit card or any other ID is on a phone then it has to be unlocked to use it. If a credit card is nicked then anyone can make contactless payments using it. So from that aspect the phone is more secure. Same goes for digital ID such as a driving license or at the airport. The system requires you to be present at point of processing. You have to provide Face ID or thumbprint at that point which means you have to be there. Then a digital signature is shared, not the ID, card or licence details. The digital signature is then cross checked with the security system and your details approved or denied. So again, more secure. The more I think about it the more I feel this is a good thing.

 

Still find it a little odd that the government have not approved an android alternative. From that point of view it seems to give Apple and unfair market advantage. Not seen any news of it arriving here in the UK yet.

[bcredeur97]

45 minutes ago, Kisai said:

And it's safer than actual cash, because of the potential for counterfeit currency, which is a problem in tourism areas. One of the reasons why $50 and $100 bills are not accepted for small purchases anymore.

not for much longer with all this money printing and inflation lol

But yeah you're right, credit cards are in general safer for the end user. + if you budget and use it as if it were your debit card but pay it off every month, then you pay no interest. Trouble is people don't think or get carried away with looking at their credit balance instead of their bank balance and end up with wads of credit card debt.

If you think you can't keep track of your money then you best stay away from credit cards. Getting carried away and acquiring massive amounts of credit card debt can ruin your life as much if not more than getting your card stolen. high-interest that gets compounded against you SUCKS

If you're money-savvy then it's fine, and a useful tool. I have a credit card that I use for all my expenses. I still make a monthly budget and record all my transactions as if it were coming out of my bank account. When I get the credit card bill, I pay it in full. I don't go out and buy other things just because "credit card". It is great that if my card is ever stolen or whatever the card provider handles it as long as I let them know and I'm not stuck with an empty bank account balance while I wait for my bank to resolve the issue. Although I have 2 checking accounts at two different banks in case this ever happens.

 Although the banks do want to make money on them 18-25%+ interest rates...(I mean who wouldn't?).