Requesting positive vibes, Why does everyone think you can't expect PC performance from a mobile device? Specifically a phone or thin and light laptop

[WeiSheiLindon]

Lately I've encountered a high number of people saying things like:

"Oh come on dude! You think a Mobile Phone can run Cyberpunk 2077 @4k with Raytracing ultra settings? It'll most likely melt the internals and explode! In your dreams it can beat a full blown Desktop CPU+GPU. Unless they design specifically for Desktop without power & thermal constraints then come at me again. Even the M1 Apple chips are just marketing that throttles hard!" (Source: Anonymous, GSMArena.com)

Now, having done a fair amount of research on both desktop and mobile processors (definitely more on mobile processors), I know, and correct me if I'm wrong please, that there is quite a bit wrong with this persons reply. Here are my main points:
1. Running cyber punk 2077 on a phone is unrealistic, A, you would never be running a game in 4k on a phone, there's no need for how small the screen is. B, Cyberpunk 2077 is a notoriously unstable, buggy, and unoptimized game, of course it can't run on hardware it wasn't made to run on when it can barely run on hardware it's meant to run on. C, There is no mobile port!

2. "Even the M1 Apple chips are just marketing that throttles hard!" Uh, not true, a quick YouTube search will help you verify through multiple people's test's that it only throttles 15%, which means it's GeekBench score will be (1447 single core, 6284 multi core) down from (1703 Single-Core Score, 7394 Multi-Core Score). That's enough to beat the core i9 9900k in single core and to achieve 78.5% of the i9's multi core performance. (i9 9900k GeekBench scores: 1243 single core, 8007 multi core)

3. "It'll most likely melt the internals and explode! In your dreams it can beat a full blown Desktop CPU+GPU". The last phone to explode in such a manner was the Samsung Galaxy Note 7, and in very rare cases more recently, certain iPhone's have also had exploding batteries. And as for performance, I'll grant you that current Mobile hardware is unable to beat a high end desktop setup, but most people don't have a high end desktop setup, the majority of Steam gamers according to their survey in July 2021, were using an Nvidiia GTX 1060. According to GadgetVersus.com, this is the comparison between the Nvidia GTX 1060 and Qualcomm Adrenos 660: 

In this case, I won't pretend to know what these numbers mean, but I hope someone in the community can help with this. 

-a confused phone nerd

 

[Middcore]

Are you asking people to explain to you why desktop/laptop hardware is more powerful than mobile device hardware?

[Electronics Wizardy]

A desktop/laptop lets you use more power in the cpu/gpu. more power allows more transistors or high clocks, and both of those will make it faster. There is no way to pratically get rid of more heat in a phone, so a phone/laptop of a given generation will always be faster(assuming same gen, and both are in the same performance tier)

 

Your comparison has a big issue, and thats age. That gpu is 5 years old that that phone gpu. Also none of those comparisons show performance of the chip, but the 1060 is probably much faster.

 

 

[WeiSheiLindon]

No I am merely curious why everyone is so convinced that pc's will always beat mobile devices, granted x86 has had years to develop, but clearly it is not perfect or how does the m1, which is an entry level laptop CPU from apple, has managed to beat so many x86 processors.

[Hairless Monkey Boy]

3 minutes ago, WeiSheiLindon said:

No I am merely curious why everyone is so convinced that pc's will always beat mobile devices, granted x86 has had years to develop, but clearly it is not perfect or how does the m1, which is an entry level laptop CPU from apple, has managed to beat so many x86 processors.

Because if a mobile device can beat a desktop PC, then we would just put the mobile device's processor and GPU into a desktop, with more power and better cooling, and then the desktop would get better performance again.

 

The constraint in mobile is power and cooling.

[WeiSheiLindon]

Just now, HairlessMonkeyBoy said:

Because if a mobile device can beat a desktop PC, then we would just put the mobile devices processor and GPU into a desktop, with more power and better cooling, and then the desktop would get better performance again.

 

The constraint in mobile is power and cooling.

That makes sense I agree with you. I guess now the question is when will we get ARM PC's.

[jaslion]

1 minute ago, WeiSheiLindon said:

That makes sense I agree with you. I guess now the question is when will we get ARM PC's.

We've already had em for 3 years or so in their current form? They've existed since 2004 I think with windows ce on them.

[GuiltySpark_]

2 minutes ago, WeiSheiLindon said:

That makes sense I agree with you. I guess now the question is when will we get ARM PC's.

 

Years ago. You can buy one right now. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/d/surface-pro-x/8qg3bmrhnwhk?activetab=pivot:techspecstab

 

 

[BuckGup]

Because the laws of physics. It's dependent on context too. People are talking about phones and computers now. The same argument could be made that personal computers are 10x more powerful than super computers from the 1980s. Sure but high performance clusters today are so much faster than personal computers

[YoungBlade]

These days I do expect PC levels of performance from my phone. I just expect it to be the level of performance I got from a computer several years ago. My current laptop is pretty old - HP ProBook 6470b - and its performance seems comparable to that of my current phone - a Moto G Power. Both can play 1080p YouTube, but struggle with 4K. Both can play some basic games. Both have smooth UI performance. Both let me browse the Internet and run applications on the go.

 

Modern phones are already performing at the level once expected of PCs. It's just that they'll always be one step behind, due to the nature of being compact and drawing very little power compared to a full-sized desktop.

[Heliian]

Because gaming phones are expensive to build and don't sell that well. 

[tikker]

Well quite frankly because you can't. They are completely different devices with different goals.

1 hour ago, WeiSheiLindon said:

1. Running cyber punk 2077 on a phone is unrealistic

You already start off admiting PCs have better performance than phones. 4k gaming is admittedly still a little bit out of reach on PC without the latest hardware, but the point is proven. You won't be able to run AAA titles maxed out on phone hardware, so no, phones will not offer PC level performance in that regard.

1 hour ago, WeiSheiLindon said:

And as for performance, I'll grant you that current Mobile hardware is unable to beat a high end desktop setup, but most people don't have a high end desktop setup, the majority of Steam gamers according to their survey in July 2021, were using an Nvidiia GTX 1060. According to GadgetVersus.com, this is the comparison between the Nvidia GTX 1060 and Qualcomm Adrenos

Those people with 1060s don't care about running the latest AAA titles at 4k 120 Hz maxed out. They are casual gamers, esports gamers or people that simply needed a GPU  with a bit more kick than an iGPU. "most people don't have a high end desktop setup" is not an argument for "so phone hardware offers the same performance as PC hardware". That's like "why do people say a Fiat Panda will never yield F1 performance, most people don't own an F1 car".

 

Phones have come a long way. From browsing the web to editing documents, giving presentations to making and lightly editing videos. They have become tiny little power houses. What they are not, however, are full fledged gaming or workstation level PCs. They need to be portable, not melt your hand or leg off and last a day, give or take. They need to be efficient and low power. For those reasons alone they will not match any dedicated PC with a 1000 W PSU and unlimited wall power to their availability any time soon.

1 hour ago, WeiSheiLindon said:

No I am merely curious why everyone is so convinced that pc's will always beat mobile devices, granted x86 has had years to develop, but clearly it is not perfect or how does the m1, which is an entry level laptop CPU from apple, has managed to beat so many x86 processors.

Since when is Apple M1 an "entry level laptop CPU"? It might be on Apples "entry level" machines, but if they beat the crap out of the competitors the CPU sure isn't. The macbook air starts at like what, $999? That's more than an entry level laptop would cost.

[SimplyChunk]

one word...Cooling

[Freakwise]

power 

 

M1 mac mini from what i heard average at around 20w while top of the line Snapdragon 888 is only 5w

 

Full blown desktop cpu alone could take anywhere From 35 to +100w and not counting other stuff like the gpu and what not

 

 

 

[12345678]

2 hours ago, WeiSheiLindon said:

No I am merely curious why everyone is so convinced that pc's will always beat mobile devices, granted x86 has had years to develop, but clearly it is not perfect or how does the m1, which is an entry level laptop CPU from apple, has managed to beat so many x86 processors.

so arm had too years to devolp 

there are arm based server solutions, most of the socs for smartphones are too arm based, there are mcus who are also arm based, then there are experimentations by manufacturers such as apple m1 to port arm based solutions to consumer pcs

 

all worthless statements, different devices do different jobs, just because they do share some nomenclature it doesn't mean that they are the same thing,

different things are meant to have different purposes

 

also suggestions stop wasting time over lamish YouTubers who do half hour videos on how arm is the future and fried air content

[GuiltySpark_]

2 hours ago, WeiSheiLindon said:

No I am merely curious why everyone is so convinced that pc's will always beat mobile devices.

Because they do and that will be the case for the foreseeable future. Its just not physically possible for a phone to provide the same experience my 5800x and 3090 do. 

[cacoe]

3 hours ago, WeiSheiLindon said:

snipped

 

Although a spec sheet can give some indicators to performance, you're comparing two totally different architectures on the chart, apples and oranges.

 

If you compare a benchmark for example, on Geekbench the mobile GPU gets around 350 for vulkan performance, the desktop gets 36,475. I understand synthetic benchmarks aren't the greatest indicator for performance, but this is just for arguments sake.

 

On the matter of the M1, it is impressive for the power consumption, but you're talking about three different things here - Full desktop processors and GPUs, Mobile processors/GPUs and mobile APU which is been developed for desktop/laptop use.

As Apple has come from this direction bottom up in their design, they have started from a very power efficient starting point, but they won't be getting that performance into one of their handsets very soon, due to power constraints. Also, despite the M1 being very impressive for what it is, it is beaten by many CPUs on the x86 side (which granted do use a lot more electricity) and is beaten substantially by dedicated desktop GPUs.

BTW, the first ARM processor was released 1985, the first 32 bit x86 processor was also released 1985. Apple released their first silicon as the A4 chip in 2010 and would have obviously been working on this for years up until that point, so don't think that they've just pulled the M1 out of a hat, it's taken a long time to get where they are right now.

Meanwhile, x86 is being developed concurrently and will also continue to improve.

[Yoinkerman]

3 hours ago, WeiSheiLindon said:

No I am merely curious why everyone is so convinced that pc's will always beat mobile devices, granted x86 has had years to develop, but clearly it is not perfect or how does the m1, which is an entry level laptop CPU from apple, has managed to beat so many x86 processors.

It's simple.  PCs have the ability to use hundreds of watts of power.

 

Phones have ones of watts of power

 

Laptops have tens of watts

 

 

[GoodBytes]

4 hours ago, WeiSheiLindon said:

That makes sense I agree with you. I guess now the question is when will we get ARM PC's.

We have. The Surface Pro X and the Apple M1 based systems.

 

On the non-Apple side of things, the issue is as similar to electric cars had before Tesla. While a Surface Pro X would provide an excellent experience, plenty of performance for a great number of PC users, because it isn't a show piece CPU like what Tesla was to electric cars (like the Apple M1 is for Apple), there is no excitement, and people aren't really open to the idea. This was much like electric cars were before Tesla.

 

PC's needs their Apple M1 equivalent chip. Sadly, the only SoC manufacture that makes high performance ARM based SoC is Qualcomm (well you have Samsung, but they are behind Qualcomm and have no interest in seeing their SoC on anything but their phones). Qualcomm is on the top of the world in the Android space, they have no competition to push forward. They have some laptop SoC, but they are mostly just tweaked phone SoCs, the company isn't putting the investment needed (again, lack of any competition).

 

Apple M1 isn't magic. Apple has put, for years, money into their ARM processor to make the M1 possible. They had a vision. Qualcomm is like what Intel was before AMD was Zen 2 was a thing (around 10 years of 0 real innovation, minor performance bumps only, charging consumers insane prices, as there is no competition). Maybe if Samsung really goes in wither their SoC and makes it avail to others, or MediaTek pulls an AMD, and has a chip that is performance competitive, things might change.

 

I suspect part of the decision for Microsoft to venture in making their own CPUs is due to this situation. But a processor takes many years to make. I don't expect to see anything in the next 3 years. And the first gen stuff, tend to not be really exciting, unless there is a real problem with the lack of competition, kind of like how Zen just demolished Intel.

[Tom09]

You possibly could get a phone with the power of a current gen desktop. However it could cost a lot and because of thermal constraints the performance might only be good for a few minutes

[Donut417]

18 hours ago, WeiSheiLindon said:

No I am merely curious why everyone is so convinced that pc's will always beat mobile devices, granted x86 has had years to develop, but clearly it is not perfect or how does the m1, which is an entry level laptop CPU from apple, has managed to beat so many x86 processors.

My take on it is this. Apple is never going to sell the M1 to other 3rd parties. So the next contender to bring ARM to a PC is Qualcomm. They own a good chunk of the phone market. What incentive do they have to try to compete with Intel or AMD? Really none. Technically they have a chip that does, if you count that ARM based Surface tablet from Microsoft. But x86 emulation from what I have heard sucks on that Surface tablet and is no where close to what Apple has achieved. 

 

I think the notion that "Well Apple did it, so any one can" is the wrong assumption to make. The fact is how much of the M1 chip was Apple and how much of it came from ARM? Apple has been designing CPU's for their products for a decade at least. Apple needed this to succeed. Qualcomm doesn't need to succeed in the PC market to survive. 

 

The next issue is compatibility thats the only saving grace Windows has anymore. Old software and hardware can work on the newer Windows OS's generally fine or with a little work. Apple didn't care about compatibility. Apple is like the Nintendo of the computer world, they are off on their island doing their own thing. Nintendo can release a 720p console in 2021 and it will likely be sold out for the next year because everyone will want it. Microsoft doesn't have that level of following or loyalty from their customer base. So Microsoft switching to ARM would break compatibility with a large number of pieces of software and hardware. This is the challenge Microsoft is going to have for the foreseeable future. Until they figure out how to solve this issue a ARM based PC is likely to never become mainstream. 

[Sprawlie]

I love when people who clearly don't understand technology read spec sheets and think they know better than those of us who have been living and working it for 30+ years

[Sprawlie]

19 hours ago, WeiSheiLindon said:

No I am merely curious why everyone is so convinced that pc's will always beat mobile devices, granted x86 has had years to develop, but clearly it is not perfect or how does the m1, which is an entry level laptop CPU from apple, has managed to beat so many x86 processors.

it's this pesky little thing that nobody has seemed to be able to overcome... Physics

 

As you increase your device in size, you also increase the ability to cool and power that device. Allowing for the larger devices to do more.

 

Even if, as you want to claim, the CPU tech is 1:1 on performance. Your phone generally has a limit of ~5w of heat dissapation on the CPU under load. Your phone would be incapable of handling anything more without more robust cooling, which adds size and weight and battery draw.

 

Moving up the ladder, we get Ultrabooks and super portables. These allow for up to ~7 or in some devices ~15w of heat to be generated by the CPU. This can happen because again, larger devices allow for different cooling solutions. Such as larger heat syncs, or active fans.

 

Than we get to normal and larger laptops: these dveices typically can handle up to 25w components. 

 

Desktop CPU's typically range from 45w to 115w. 

 

And then there's the higher end stuff that can easily go higher than that

 

 

Why the heat dissaption is important to this discussion is because it's the physics of heat dissapation which renders your argument mostly irrelevant. No matter how fast the mobility devices CPU's are at their respective tasks, they would have to  be able to scale up the same way with heat dissapation that their larger, faster counterparts can handle.

 

Because of this, NO, your cell phone is almost never likely going ot compete performance wise with a laptop, or desktop of the same "generational" technology. Physics doesn't care. 

[Sprawlie]

19 hours ago, WeiSheiLindon said:

I guess now the question is when will we get ARM PC's.

when ARM PC's can handle the higher voltages and thermal loads as x86.

 

makign this comparison is hard. Both the x86 tech and the ARM technologies started from different directions.

 

x86 was always higher performance and generally in our modern technologies higher wattage parts. Intel / AMD have had to work hard to scale it down into lower watt parts for mobile technology. 

 

on the flip side

 

ARM came in from the highly efficient, low power side. Where peformance was the number one priority, efficiency and thermals were. Over the years, ARM has attetmpted to scale up to be able to handle the same power and heat as x86.

 

What we've found, is that INtel had a hard ass time scaling down, and ARM has had a hard ass time scaling up.

 

We are seeing ARM finally capable of handling day to day use cases for the average user in the ultrabook category. But we haven't seen any ARM chips (consumer) scale higher than that. Apple is promising that they will hvae the M1x or M2 chip to do so, but we haven't seen anything yet on the high end of ARM that is competitive at the high end of x86 yet. Even servers that have attempted to go ARM have caveats. Once they're peforming at intel (or better in some workloads), they are just as hard to cool as the same intel chips. So again, physics becomes the barrier to the scale UP of ARM

 

Will we see further expansion of ARM based devices for the average consumer? Yes, I think so. But right now the limitations isn't the hardware side of things, but the software. Software is not compatible between the hardware. 

[Guest]

Hey!

 

I really think it depends on how you look at it.

 

My current cell Samsung A20 is way way faster than many desktop PCs out there as it stands. 

 

But it's not the same instruction sets.

For simplicity, the phone does basic instructions and X86 does complicated instructions. So it really is apples to orange comparisons. 

 

But ARM is strong! Well, the GPu in your gaming rig will mainly be the divide between desktop and mobile gaming. It's hard to compare a cell or tablet to a 3080ti.....