Next version of Windows event... Windows 11 -> Ended

[gjsman]

I'm wondering what on earth IT Pros are thinking right now. Let's say you upgraded all the PCs on Intel 7th Gen or Ryzen 1st Gen. You are having total End Of Life in less than 4 years, and those PCs aren't upgradeable to a supported configuration which you would have otherwise reasonably expected. You are basically forced into an upgrade cycle earlier than you expected, which is awful during a computer parts shortage when everyone like you is going to be rushing to buy systems. That's just fantastic.

 

Worse, let's say you even listened to Microsoft and bought, say, the Surface Studio 2 which Microsoft sells right now, today. It comes with a 7th Gen processor. If you were an artist studio who, for some reason, bought Surface Studio 2 as your platform, learning you won't be in an officially supported configuration in four years for a $3,500+ computer is idiotic. And you can't just go up to the four year deadline - you're going to need to upgrade in one to three years, not wait to the last minute. Or, take the dangerous route and upgrade despite Microsoft's warnings to an unsupported configuration with the risks that come with that. Why???

[Brooksie359]

23 hours ago, Quackers101 said:

In certain areas, it will just take more time or it can work (maybe more in a business or only school work setting).

As some windows, like what is often complained about in games, take up too much space rather than important information, like some of the windows seem more tablet focused than PC focused, where you have more to switch between than everything right there. (not as windows mess as in win10)

Some things that I liked about certain parts of windows 7, just click here and you get into whatever you needed to do.

Windows 10 just complicated things more and made things worse, while sort of looking better and feels uncomplete, which might make windows 11 the "true" windows 10 in my opinon. Although as to be seen, how they add in all the other nonsense or bloat. Also on the topic of privacy and mobile apps, which one would expect more control of the apps on how things run. As currently I still have a problem with apps running in the background when not wanted or told not to. To how they are maybe going to mix or push onedrive into windows, and other apps by them.

 

On the other hand, they could be a big game changer if they wanted, with the store and as an "app store".

In how they handle third party, and if they have like for example discord how you can add servers, just if one could add your own store and some through an API?

 

For example you would get a warning, as one should with not monitored or "free for all" stores, but could be a decent way of adding third parties and it could maybe be carried over to google or apple's stores. Also to manage any data collection and so on, from said apps, as it's one of the main reasons I don't want to install free apps on my PC.

Also microsoft has not been good with this, a lot of things you get opt-in into, or if for example EA games tries to auto opt-in you in their data collection without notifications about it. So can't say these larger companies are good to trust when auto collects information you didn't accept to, ofc this can just be brushed off with the "EULA"...

APP? But I do like the more mobile and compact version, like on phones.

If its done right... one of the changes that can improve windows by a lot, if it works or if limited and more connection to the internet like the mess of windows 10.

Yeah maybe windows 10 was windows 9 all along and windows 11 is technically windows 10.

[Kilrah]

8 minutes ago, gjsman said:

You are having total End Of Life in less than 4 years

7th gen is 2017, that's 8 years until W10 EOL.

 

You know how companies resist updating OS, so it's not like they're going to want 11 in the first place...

 

...and again you can still install it, just "not recommended" aka "we're paid to tell you you should buy something new"

[SpikeSpiegel]

Sadly my workplace still use HP Elitebook 8460p's with i5 2520m's with Radeon 6470m's and we just upgraded to Windows 10 in 2019.  Now we're basically screwed because our HP laptops aren't supported for Windows 11 but the TPM's are 1.2  But the CPU and GPU aren't supported by Windows 11.  I guess we're going to sell off our HP laptops and get something that is supported.

[gjsman]

3 minutes ago, Kilrah said:

7th gen is 2017, that's 8 years until W10 EOL.

 

You forget though that it can take up to a year after CPU launch before a new chip fully rolls out across the stack and becomes able to be purchased in a bulk order. You could easily buy corporate laptops in 2018 with 7th gen. Or do what Microsoft is doing right now with the Surface Studio 2 having 7th gen brand new in 2021.

[jagdtigger]

2 minutes ago, Kilrah said:

7th gen is 2017, that's 8 years until W10 EOL.

So what? Throw away perfectly usable and capable HW? That aint going to fly well with consumers...

[GoodBytes]

56 minutes ago, gjsman said:

I'm wondering what on earth IT Pros are thinking right now. Let's say you upgraded all the PCs on Intel 7th Gen or Ryzen 1st Gen. You are having total End Of Life in less than 4 years, and those PCs aren't upgradeable to a supported configuration which you would have otherwise reasonably expected. You are basically forced into an upgrade cycle earlier than you expected, which is awful during a computer parts shortage when everyone like you is going to be rushing to buy systems. That's just fantastic.

IT tend to not get a new OS on day 1 of release. This is a for a few reasons:

• They want to give a chance for software makers to fix potential issues, same for hardware makers.
• They want to wait and see for reported issues
• They expect bugs and issues to arise and give plenty of time for Microsoft to fix them.
• Depending on the company, IT might need to prepare a set of guides/training for the employees. They themselves also want to be comfortable with the OS. Typically, THEY will get the OS on day 1, and use it as their daily driver first.
• They also want to reduce support calls by waiting for people to upgrade their own personal PCs and get used to the recent changes.

So, I expect companies to really start migrating to Windows 11 (even if the changes would been minor compared to Windows 10) in a year or so, and that is at VERY best. This is for a company who is really engaged in updating things. Typically, in the past it was every 2-3 years.. so it would skip a version of Windows all together (When Windows versions where released every 3 years).

 

Quote

Worse, let's say you even listened to Microsoft and bought, say, the Surface Studio 2 which Microsoft sells right now, today. It comes with a 7th Gen processor. If you were an artist studio who, for some reason, bought Surface Studio 2 as your platform, learning you won't be in an officially supported configuration in four years for a $3,500+ computer is idiotic. And you can't just go up to the four year deadline - you're going to need to upgrade in one to three years, not wait to the last minute. Or, take the dangerous route and upgrade despite Microsoft's warnings to an unsupported configuration with the risks that come with that. Why???

Yup. That is a mistake on Microsoft part. The system should be discontinued. But you'll have support for 2025 under Windows 10, and you bought the system with Windows 10 in mind.

[GoodBytes]

45 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

So what? Throw away perfectly usable and capable HW? That aint going to fly well with consumers...

Works with Apple. Works with Android based phones... just saying.

I don't like it, but it works.

[jagdtigger]

Just now, GoodBytes said:

Works with Apple. Works with Android based phones... just saying.

Maybe with apple, but in case of android phones ppl just dont care, they just use them until the HW gives up its soul.... (<-same with laptops and PC's among ppl i know, they use them until the hw dies and dont really care about the OS not being supported)

[Bombastinator]

3 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

IT tend to not get a new OS on day 1 of release. This is a for a few reasons:

• They want to give a chance for software makers to fix potential issues, same for hardware makers.
• They want to wait and see for reported issues
• They expect bugs and issues to arise and give plenty of time for Microsoft to fix them.
• Depending on the company, IT might need to prepare a set of guides/training for the employees. They themselves also want to be comfortable with the OS. Typically, THEY will get the OS on day 1, and use it as their daily driver first.
• They also want to reduce support calls by waiting for people to upgrade their own personal PCs and get used to the recent changes.

So, I expect companies to really start migrating to Windows 11 (even if the changes would been minor compared to Windows 10) in a year or so, and that is at VERY best. This is for a company who is really engaged in updating things. Typically, in the past it was every 2-3 years.. so it would skip a version of Windows all together.

 

Yup. That is a mistake on Microsoft part. The system should be discontinued. But you'll have support for 2025 under Windows 10, and you bought the system with Windows 10 in mind.

Or if the system requirement are random, which may be the case. It can simply be moved.  I’ve run into extremely bitter complaints about Apple doing stuff much less extreme than this.  Have they looked at what this would do to countries BESIDES the US?  There may be a large majority of machines there no longer able to run windows.  This may be a move that simply drives more people to Linux.

[atxcyclist]

5 minutes ago, Kilrah said:

7th gen is 2017, that's 8 years until W10 EOL.

True, but when W10 was originally released in 2015, hardware from 2006 was still supported; You could have a nearly decade old system and upgrade to W10 just fine at first release, and hardware from 2006 still works in W10 until EOL.

 

W11 has a 4 year maximum hardware age right out of the gate, that’s comparatively very restrictive.

[Forbidden Wafer]

Did anyone actually try to install it on super old hardware? Installing on a Core 2 Duo. :x

[Kilrah]

11 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

So what? Throw away perfectly usable and capable HW? That aint going to fly well with consumers...

He was talking of "IT professionals", aka businesses. 

The kind of businesses I got nice free machines from because they replace the hardware after the 3 year service contract expires anyway regardless of condition or suitability. 

 

  

3 minutes ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

Did anyone actually try to install on super old hardware? Installing on a Core 2 Duo. :x

Yes, Core 2 Quad Q8200 here.

[Forbidden Wafer]

1 minute ago, Kilrah said:

Yes, Core 2 Quad Q8200 here.

Did you need to replace the microcode file with the W8.1 one? 

[Bombastinator]

1 minute ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

Did anyone actually try to install on super old hardware? Installing on a Core 2 Duo. :x

Got to wait for actual release to get anything accurate that way the leaked build is both an early build and and “pro” to boot.  We won’t know about a lot of undocumented stuff until official release.

[Kilrah]

Just now, Forbidden Wafer said:

Did you need to replace the microcode file with the W8.1 one? 

No, just did command line install:

 

 

[Forbidden Wafer]

13 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Got to wait for actual release to get anything accurate that way the leaked build is both an early build and and “pro” to boot.  We won’t know about a lot of undocumented stuff until official release.

Yeah, I'm installing it on an old 2010 MacMini. I want to see if updates will break it. It has no TPM, no SecureBoot, the disk is partitioned as GPT but Boot camp presents it as an hybrid MBR, installing with BIOS mode since UEFI breaks the ancient nForce chipset drivers...

 

Remember when Nvidia made chipsets and still worked with Apple?

XD

[Quackers101]

8 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Works with Apple. Works with Android based phones... just saying.

That is more or less about phones in general.

They are in a bad spot and has been for a while, when it has becomed more software focused that will reduce the life of the hardware.

As older phones can still run, but struggles with newer software. Not sure if there is a point were a balance is struck, and when the much talked about android upgrade to increase the lifetime of the devices. Then again demand is going to increase, and increase what one wants to use the phone for, and phones created will not stop continuing to mass produce and the profit they expect or want + growth.

[Forbidden Wafer]

4 minutes ago, Kilrah said:

No, just did command line install:

 

 

Hmm, I saw this post and just copied the different file.

 

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-windows_install-winpc/the-installation-failed-in-the-safeos-phase-with/54db0c8f-f9f0-4093-b2fe-ad378685686a?auth=1

[Seyrren]

Well this is certainly a new experience, this is the first time i hated a Windows OS so much and it just barely got announced, the experience with the leaked version was pretty bad interface wise, and reading up all the things about is such:

 

-limited hardware support, things like requiring DX 12 GPU's, secure boot, TPM 2.0 and maybe even more, i dunno this where just some of the things i noticed quickly

-pushing Online accounts even more aggressively with the Home version down right not working if you don't have an internet connection especially on the first run

-the taskbar is locked at the bottom for their crappy widgets crap that i for one have no interest in (people like me who use it on the side or any other place rather then the bottom may be a minority but i dismiss the fact that it wasn't a used feature, there's loads of people whom i've seen using it at the top or at either sides, i highly doubt that it wasn't a feature used by 99.9% of the user base)

-no more support for folders and groups in start menu (GoodBytes are you going to say that 99.9%% of the people didn't use this either ?)

This are just some of the things, from what i've seen it looks really limited compared to any of the previous versions of windows... Windows 8/8.1 felt revolutionary in comparison to this crap, and i'm not joking, sure i disliked some of the design choices but despite that most of the functionality was still there ....

 

Looks like this is finally it when i'm finally forced to move somehow to linux...

 

Luckily for 2 out of the 3 PC's in my home i can move to Linux without issues, but for my main PC where i do gaming and use it for VN's its not going to be an easy job... i guess i'll just have to use windows 8.1 or windows 10 till 2025 and jump afterwards on Linux using a VM of windows 10 with hardware passthrough for VN's and games (or maybe things like Proton and Wine have a better progression), or something similar to that. But i sure as hell wont get close to this crappy OS.

 

 

[Uttamattamakin]

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

Oh it will run. Microsoft said, that if you join the insider program, you'll get Windows 11 builds no problem.

I think what Microsoft has in their plans, now, this is just a guess, but it would make sense, that they want to use features that is only available in newer hardware or knows that the manufacture can/will provide support to add what is needed.

 

Windows 8.1 killed off AMD Athlon 64 (and X2 variant) support when it was released due to the CPU lacked an instruction that it started using.

And I think (just going by memory), AMD Athlon 64 FX-60 series was killed off with Windows 10 due that it lacked a CPU instruction.

Again, I am not saying TODAY (or next week when the Insider builds of Win11 will come out) that the OS will use specific features that older CPUs don't have. However, later, it could be the case.

 

To be clear, I am not defending Microsoft decision. I am just saying that perhaps, this is the reasoning.

Hopefully we will know more about it in the near future.

It's a bit confusing because my Surface Pro with LTE meets all the requirements listed YET it has a message that says it does not meet minimum requirements YET it runs like a dream on this hardware.    2C 4T processor and all. 

[GoodBytes]

6 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

It's a bit confusing because my Surface Pro with LTE meets all the requirements listed YET it has a message that says it does not meet minimum requirements YET it runs like a dream on this hardware.    2C 4T processor and all. 

Yes, yes, but later it may be a problem.

Microsoft has said, Win10 compatible PC can join Win11 insider build even if you are "bellow minimum specs".

I think Microsoft is planning ahead. Although, it would NICE if Microsoft shares more details for IT professionals on WHY that is the case.

[StDragon]

Just now, GoodBytes said:

Microsoft has said, Win10 compatible PC can join Win11 insider build even if you are "bellow minimum specs".

I think Microsoft is planning ahead. Although, it would NICE if Microsoft shares more details for IT professionals on WHY that is the case.

Just a guess, but I'm thinking MS wants to push apps through the store pretty hard. In order to do that they need wide adoption of Windows 11. But they also want to set a minimum security requirement too. In the long-run, it's much harder launch with relaxed standards of a new OS and clamp down, then it is to launch with high minimum standards to begin with. So this MS playing the long-game.

 

IT professions have other stringent needs, so some flexibility will be offered here. It's their way of compromising given the HW refresh cycle that's typical in a business environment. I'm sure they have the metrics to back that up.

[GoodBytes]

4 minutes ago, Hakemon said:

Considering I simply don't have much money and usually get hand me downs, I'm very much disappointed that my FX 8320 will be left out here.  I have a perfectly functional machine for me.  I'm running the leaked 11 dev build still and it's run smooth, fast, and dream like.  Boots up a little faster than 10 I think actually, and this is via legacy boot, and of course, no TPM or even fTPM since I completely lack it.

 

Honestly, I guess this is where I part ways with Windows again, because with the chip shortage on top of this, I simply cannot afford a new motherboard, CPU and RAM (all my other components should transition fine).  I parted ways with Windows in the early 00's for Linux, then came back in 2017, well that was short lived I guess.  lol.  I hope PopOS can run games as well as Windows, because that's probably going to be the distro I chose.

Did you look at your local electronic recycling facility, or those who work with them (if they don't do Business to consumer)?

You can find old system, mostly office computers, as they tend to follow a 3-5 years upgrade cycle.  They may have a 8th gen Intel CPU for a very low price.

Well, now with the market, it might be more expensive, but you can still be on Windows 11 if you upgrade from 10 via Insider (unless something changes, which would allow all 10 to upgrade to the first release of 11), and you'll have at least a year of support (assuming support is similar to Win10) on this first version. This gives you minimum 1 year and half for savings and looking at options. And again, Windows 10 will still be supported until 2025. So yea, iyt sucks you won't get the latets features, but at least it would be supported.

[StDragon]

@GoodBytes Did Microsoft say what the last build of Windows 10 will be? I know it's set to be EOLed in 2025, but does that meen MS will continue release newer builds up to that point?? Or is 21H1 the final?

 

I would like to think MS would provide an update that would allow for DirectStorage with Windows 10.