Verified actual gamer program might hurt more than it helps.

[Lurick]

2 minutes ago, wkdpaul said:

Tesla also no ?

 

Plus, there are plenty of companies that sell gift cards in exchange for crypto (not just BTC), I personally change my BTC into Amazon gift cards, BTC and ETH pretty much paid for my current build.

 

wow ... the amount of misinformation you're spreading is ridiculous, really.

 

@Moonzy we're you aware that mining and trading crypto automatically made us criminals ?!?!?!

Didn't you hear, using a computer makes you a criminal too because that's how hackers attack people and steal their info!

[Guest]

This is little more than a publicity stunt with, as they said, 80-100 cards.

A number that sounds large, yes... but is insignificant in reality.

[Ar558a]

1 minute ago, Den-Fi said:

This is little more than a publicity stunt with, as they said, 80-100 cards.

A number that sounds large, yes... but is insignificant in reality.

Yeh if the number is that low it wasn't really worth mentioning. I sort of assumed it would be at least 4 digits...

[Name62]

45 minutes ago, Ar558a said:

Yeh if the number is that low it wasn't really worth mentioning. I sort of assumed it would be at least 4 digits...

there are straight retailers that cant get that level of graphic's cards rn, how would LMG get over 1000 high end gpus rn?

[IkeaGnome]

1 hour ago, Ar558a said:

I had no specific intention of buying a GPU actually but I don't like the worry of knowing if mine dies I can't replace it.

This is what I actually have a problem with here. The sense of entitlement that has happened with this launch and the 10 series. You're avidly anti mining because it's immoral. You haven't cited sources that say it's immoral. I give you a source that is a FBI report on it's use in crime. You come back with "I don't trust that" or something along those lines.

At the end of the day, welcome to capitalism under less than ideal circumstances.  There is a shortage on silicon. It's so bad right now that even auto manufacturers can't get computers for cars. Do we blame miners for a lack of new cars? Do we blame new cars for a lack of GPUs? No, we blame miners for a lack of GPUs. Why? You realize GPUs aren't the only thing that are hard to source right now? Do we blame miners for a lack of CPUs also? Maybe we blame them for the shortage of SSDs at the beginning of this pandemic. 

There's much more going into this shortage than "MiNeRs BaD." You still haven't told me why we are more entitled to GPUs than dedicated miners or facts on why mining is morally wrong.

[Moonzy]

2 hours ago, wkdpaul said:

 

@Moonzy were you aware that mining and trading crypto automatically made us criminals ?!?!?!

I'm too busy running from the feds to read the thread for contex- (mic gets cuts off and static noise)

[Ar558a]

3 hours ago, IkeaGnome said:

This is what I actually have a problem with here. The sense of entitlement that has happened with this launch and the 10 series. You're avidly anti mining because it's immoral. You haven't cited sources that say it's immoral. I give you a source that is a FBI report on it's use in crime. You come back with "I don't trust that" or something along those lines.

At the end of the day, welcome to capitalism under less than ideal circumstances.  There is a shortage on silicon. It's so bad right now that even auto manufacturers can't get computers for cars. Do we blame miners for a lack of new cars? Do we blame new cars for a lack of GPUs? No, we blame miners for a lack of GPUs. Why? You realize GPUs aren't the only thing that are hard to source right now? Do we blame miners for a lack of CPUs also? Maybe we blame them for the shortage of SSDs at the beginning of this pandemic. 

There's much more going into this shortage than "MiNeRs BaD." You still haven't told me why we are more entitled to GPUs than dedicated miners or facts on why mining is morally wrong.

It is clear you either are a miner or love them. Graphics cards are designed for Gaming, they always have been, crypto currencies have only existed in the last 10 years or so and only due to advancements designed to help gaming performance is it possible to use them to mine. 

 

I'm not saying the report is wrong I'm saying it is one source and I would need more evidence to be convinced especially given that establishment figures with more knowledge than me i.e the US treasury Secretary have questions on the same point.

 

I Understand there is shortage of silicon worldwide for all uses. Obviously miners can't use car ECU silicon to mine so that is a facetious point. I don't blame them for a lack of CPU's either that would be stupid. I blame them for buying GPU's that would go to gamers if they didn't buy them. There is a finite supply of GPU's and everyone that ends in the hands of a miner is one less for gamers.

 

I never suggested that the shortage was all miners fault, but they have made it worse. You clearly don't agree that mining is morally questionable and have no problems if they buy all the GPU supply, (neither do AMD and Nvidia for that matter). I re-iterate that taking a product out of the hands of a genuine user to make money by creating a sketchy unreliable currency that has no regulation and is designed to be "secret" and uncontrolled by the US Fed or the Bank of England or the ECB (the only reason to be untraceable and uncontrolled by governments and regulators is IF YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING YOU NEED TO HIDE IE ILLLEGAL. I don't care if every transaction I ever make is seen by governments and regulators because I am ALWAYS acting legally) is morally questionable at best. You clearly either can't or choose not to see that. 

[WkdPaul]

34 minutes ago, Ar558a said:

I re-iterate that taking a product out of the hands of a genuine user to make money by creating a sketchy unreliable currency that has no regulation and is designed to be "secret" and uncontrolled by the US Fed or the Bank of England or the ECB (the only reason to be untraceable and uncontrolled by governments and regulators is IF YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING YOU NEED TO HIDE IE ILLLEGAL. I don't care if every transaction I ever make is seen by governments and regulators because I am ALWAYS acting legally) is morally questionable at best. You clearly either can't or choose not to see that. 

Again, that's pure ignorance on your part.

 

The ledgers are 100% public, you can follow each and every transactions on there, that's why you see news talking about companies or people transfering big amounts. Exchanges are regulated, I had to send a scan of 2 pieces of ID for my account to be opened, and that is because of government regulation, so I'm still waiting on an explanation as to how me buying and selling BTC, ETH, BCH and other coins, while having IDs linked to every transaction, means I'm a criminal ...

Edited March 8, 2021 by wkdpaul

[Moonzy]

1 hour ago, Ar558a said:

I blame them for buying GPU's that would go to gamers if they didn't buy them.

Gamers aren't paying $2000 for a 3080, so I did

 

1 hour ago, Ar558a said:

taking a product out of the hands of a genuine user

U gonna thanos snap all of us and make us fictional now?

 

miners use their GPU 99% of the time while gamers use it... 15% of the time?

miners are more of a "user" of GPUs... right?

[Arika]

1 hour ago, Ar558a said:

You clearly don't agree that mining is morally questionable and have no problems if they buy all the GPU supply

Why do YOU thinking mining is morally questionable? I keep seeing this being thrown around, but I cannot twist what mining is into anything close to being an issue of morals. Mining itself is fine, I can only assume you're referring to cryptocurrency, specifically bitcoin. But still it's not a question of morals to USE it. USD is also used for criminal activity that can't be traced, there is using the USD a moral issue as well? 

 

1 hour ago, Ar558a said:

I re-iterate that taking a product out of the hands of a genuine user to make money

You don't get to decide who is a genuine user. Since everyone likes to roll around on the floor screaming "GPUs are for gamers" then what about

• Video rendering
• 3d artists
• Folding at home
• Workstations that can't afford quadro cards? 

Just fuck 'em right? 

[Blademaster91]

1 hour ago, Ar558a said:

It is clear you either are a miner or love them. Graphics cards are designed for Gaming, they always have been, crypto currencies have only existed in the last 10 years or so and only due to advancements designed to help gaming performance is it possible to use them to mine. 

While graphics cards are marketed for gaming, theres so much more you can do with them, like rendering, Folding at home for medical research, machine learning, or photo editing.

1 hour ago, Ar558a said:

I'm not saying the report is wrong I'm saying it is one source and I would need more evidence to be convinced especially given that establishment figures with more knowledge than me i.e the US treasury Secretary have questions on the same point.

I didn't know the US government was concerned with crypto, its definitely too volatile for me to trust, and once government start regulating it the same as the US dollar then I don't see point in wasting power or risking investing in GPUs on crypto.

1 hour ago, Ar558a said:

I Understand there is shortage of silicon worldwide for all uses. Obviously miners can't use car ECU silicon to mine so that is a facetious point. I don't blame them for a lack of CPU's either that would be stupid. I blame them for buying GPU's that would go to gamers if they didn't buy them. There is a finite supply of GPU's and everyone that ends in the hands of a miner is one less for gamers.

I agree with this, there is a shortage of semiconductors, and for example TSMC can't make enough, but miners are obviously making the shortage worse.

1 hour ago, Ar558a said:

I never suggested that the shortage was all miners fault, but they have made it worse. You clearly don't agree that mining is morally questionable and have no problems if they buy all the GPU supply, (neither do AMD and Nvidia for that matter). I re-iterate that taking a product out of the hands of a genuine user to make money by creating a sketchy unreliable currency that has no regulation and is designed to be "secret" and uncontrolled by the US Fed or the Bank of England or the ECB (the only reason to be untraceable and uncontrolled by governments and regulators is IF YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING YOU NEED TO HIDE IE ILLLEGAL. I don't care if every transaction I ever make is seen by governments and regulators because I am ALWAYS acting legally) is morally questionable at best. You clearly either can't or choose not to see that.

There isn't anything that can be done about getting GPUs into the hands of gamers, since Nvidia and AMD would rather sell them directly to miners. The Nvidia CMP cards are nothing but a marketing move, and I think companies prioritizing miners first seems like a shortsighted decision, or at least something they shouldn't be putting that much money into because the intended market, consumers buying a GPU for gaming are consumers that will buy another GPU, I doubt mining businesses with 15 GPUs or more in their basement will keep buying cards if crypto crashes.

27 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

Gamers aren't paying $2000 for a 3080, so I did

Theres a difference between aren't and can't.

It seems like miners are either ignoring that $2000 should a be whole high end PC, or don't care that paying those kind of prices could affect those whole market, possibly to the point that prices may never return to normal, ie. FE pricing at launch.

27 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

U gonna thanos snap all of us and make us fictional now?

I think they mean people that will actually use a GPU for something besides cranking out money, and will keep buying GPUs even if crypto crashes again.

[Moonzy]

17 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

don't care that paying those kind of prices could affect those whole market

this is true, miners look at GPU with a different point of view than gamers.

one is comparing entertaintment to dollar value, while the other is comparing... more money to money

 

i agree that GPU prices are jacked all the way up by miners, but this is one of the downsides of GP GPU, i guess

once someone finds an alternative use for it, the value might rise to the point that other previous use cases doesn't seem worth it, and worth is in the eyes of the beholder, as there're are also gamers, albeit very very minority, who are still willing to pay that much to play games.

[The_russian]

2 hours ago, Ar558a said:

I re-iterate that taking a product out of the hands of a genuine user to make money by creating a sketchy unreliable currency that has no regulation and is designed to be "secret" and uncontrolled by the US Fed or the Bank of England or the ECB (the only reason to be untraceable and uncontrolled by governments and regulators is IF YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING YOU NEED TO HIDE IE ILLLEGAL. I don't care if every transaction I ever make is seen by governments and regulators because I am ALWAYS acting legally) is morally questionable at best. You clearly either can't or choose not to see that. 

Really, the only reason to hide something from your government and regulators is if you are doing something illegal? My bad, I forgot the government would never use data it collects in a way that citizens would never approve of... oh wait, what was that thing with Snowden in 2013? Oh yeah, turns out the government is doing all kinds of shady shit they don't want people knowing about. 

 

Why do you think mining is not moral? What if I say that CPUs are meant for scientific research and productivity/work, not gaming? Would that mean that you, as a gamer, should not purchase CPUs?

Edited March 8, 2021 by The_russian

[Ar558a]

1 hour ago, Moonzy said:

Gamers aren't paying $2000 for a 3080, so I did

 

U gonna thanos snap all of us and make us fictional now?

 

miners use their GPU 99% of the time while gamers use it... 15% of the time?

miners are more of a "user" of GPUs... right?

I can't stop you doing it. But I don't agree with it and quite frankly, In my opinion its the same as being part of a Ponzi scheme as Crypto has no REAL Value and the bubble will burst and being part of it is encourage a fake validity in something that has none. The Only currencies are created by National Banks not some hacker on the net!

 

1 hour ago, Arika S said:

Why do YOU thinking mining is morally questionable? I keep seeing this being thrown around, but I cannot twist what mining is into anything close to being an issue of morals. Mining itself is fine, I can only assume you're referring to cryptocurrency, specifically bitcoin. But still it's not a question of morals to USE it. USD is also used for criminal activity that can't be traced, there is using the USD a moral issue as well? 

 

You don't get to decide who is a genuine user. Since everyone likes to roll around on the floor screaming "GPUs are for gamers" then what about

• Video rendering
• 3d artists
• Folding at home
• Workstations that can't afford quadro cards? 

Just fuck 'em right? 

Morality is related in two ways, it's perverting the use of the technology for something which will ultimately cause hard working (but naive) people to lose their life savings. And Currency should be governed and managed by reputable governments and regulators not just random internet people. 

 

Those other uses are fine, as they are largely using the card as it was intended to create graphical output (ok not for games but still).

59 minutes ago, The_russian said:

Really, the only reason to hide something from your government and regulators is if you are doing something illegal? My bad, I forgot the government would never use data it collects in a way that citizens would never approve of... oh wait, what was that thing with Snowden in 2013? Oh yeah, turns out the government is doing all kinds of shady shit they don't want people knowing about. 

 

Why do you think mining is not moral? What if I say that CPUs are meant for scientific research and productivity/work, not gaming? Would that mean that you, as a gamer, should not purchase CPUs?

That has nothing to do with currency though? That is standard surveillance that all major governments are involved in to prevent crime and terrorism etc. I have no problem with it. If the CIA want to read my emails or whatsapp or whatever good luck to them it will be boring as hell but I have nothing to hide and all these people who scream about privacy all the time make me very suspicious that they are either doing criminal activity or at least morally questionable stuff. 

 

If there was a long term CPU crisis and there was a case they were needed for Cancer research or similar, I would support prioritising those causes.

[IkeaGnome]

4 minutes ago, Ar558a said:

Morality is related in two ways, it's perverting the use of the technology for something which will ultimately cause hard working (but naive) people to lose their life savings. And Currency should be governed and managed by reputable governments and regulators not just random internet people. 

 

Those other uses are fine, as they are largely using the card as it was intended to create graphical output (ok not for games but still)..

How will it ultimately cause people to lose their life savings? If they are going to blow it on over priced GPUs there is an addiction there that needs to be looked at. If people are okay with spending too much on a GPU, in your eyes, who are you to tell them they can't? You don't decide how I or anyone else here spends our money.

Is it moral or is it not? You go back and forth in 2 lines. Using them for non gaming is immoral, except for rendering or workstation uses.

Do you have proof crypto has no "real" value? Value is in the eye of the beholder as we see with the prices on GPUs. They're selling for so high because people think they're worth it. 

Shells were once used as a currency because people using it as currency all "agreed" it had a value. It's no different than the US dollar or any other "hard currency". Even gold. The only reason I have a job is because gold is universally accepted as valuable and exchanged for other assets. We could all decided tomorrow to use human hair as currency. If everyone used it instead of the $ it would become our new currency. The $ would lose all it's value. Just look at Venezuela.(Don't turn this into political) 

https://www.polygon.com/features/2020/5/27/21265613/runescape-is-helping-venezuelans-survive

https://nationalinterest.org/feature/playing-their-lives-how-2001-video-game-feeding-venezuela-49187

Oh wait. They're using Crypto. That's immoral. But they're feeding themselves. Is it moral now?

[Moonzy]

11 minutes ago, Ar558a said:

can't stop you doing it

Yes you can, I'm actually waiting for someone to give me a legitimate reason for me to stop

Despite being a hobby miner, I'm still open minded to criticism, but most of the time it's just baseless accusation without facts backing them up, while people that are more involved with crypto knows that most of the rumors and stereotypes aren't true

[Blademaster91]

1 hour ago, Moonzy said:

this is true, miners look at GPU with a different point of view than gamers.

one is comparing entertaintment to dollar value, while the other is comparing... more money to money

Yeah I don't have a problem with that at all, gaming is just one example, a GPU could be a money to money value for rendering or an artist.

1 hour ago, Moonzy said:

i agree that GPU prices are jacked all the way up by miners, but this is one of the downsides of GP GPU, i guess

once someone finds an alternative use for it, the value might rise to the point that other previous use cases doesn't seem worth it, and worth is in the eyes of the beholder, as there're are also gamers, albeit very very minority, who are still willing to pay that much to play games.

Not just miners, scalpers are more of the cause of jacked up prices than mining, mining only makes it worse so a 3060Ti or 3080 is worth even more so its sold at 2X the cost.

But yeah I agree enough people will still be willing enough to buy a GPU even though the price went up, I think thats why we have the 3090 even though its not that much faster than a 3080.

8 minutes ago, Ar558a said:

Morality is related in two ways, it's perverting the use of the technology for something which will ultimately cause hard working (but naive) people to lose their life savings. And Currency should be governed and managed by reputable governments and regulators not just random internet people. 

 

Those other uses are fine, as they are largely using the card as it was intended to create graphical output (ok not for games but still).

I'm not sure how mining would be a moral issue unless governments start banning crypto, sure someone could spend their life savings on it but I think anyone that gets into crypto should understand the risk that it could crash before spending their savings on a bunch of GPUs.

[Ar558a]

29 minutes ago, IkeaGnome said:

How will it ultimately cause people to lose their life savings? If they are going to blow it on over priced GPUs there is an addiction there that needs to be looked at. If people are okay with spending too much on a GPU, in your eyes, who are you to tell them they can't? You don't decide how I or anyone else here spends our money.

Is it moral or is it not? You go back and forth in 2 lines. Using them for non gaming is immoral, except for rendering or workstation uses.

Do you have proof crypto has no "real" value? Value is in the eye of the beholder as we see with the prices on GPUs. They're selling for so high because people think they're worth it. 

Shells were once used as a currency because people using it as currency all "agreed" it had a value. It's no different than the US dollar or any other "hard currency". Even gold. The only reason I have a job is because gold is universally accepted as valuable and exchanged for other assets. We could all decided tomorrow to use human hair as currency. If everyone used it instead of the $ it would become our new currency. The $ would lose all it's value. Just look at Venezuela.(Don't turn this into political) 

https://www.polygon.com/features/2020/5/27/21265613/runescape-is-helping-venezuelans-survive

https://nationalinterest.org/feature/playing-their-lives-how-2001-video-game-feeding-venezuela-49187

Oh wait. They're using Crypto. That's immoral. But they're feeding themselves. Is it moral now?

Because the naive will invest into crypto thinking it is a valid investment and when the bubble bursts they will lose everything.  Encouraging that is immoral, just like running a ponzi scheme, it's basically a scam you are making money from and someone else will pay the price.

 

Using a GPU for rendering or workstation use is fine as it is one much closer to the actual purpose of the product and two the output it produces isn't going to hoodwink someone into making dangerous investments.

 

Shells? This is the 21st century and Currencies should be regulated by approved governments and not no name internet hackers that are unaccountable to anyone.  

[IkeaGnome]

2 minutes ago, Ar558a said:

Because the naive will invest into crypto thinking it is a valid investment and when the bubble bursts they will lose everything.  Encouraging that is immoral, just like running a ponzi scheme, it's basically a scam you are making money from and someone else will pay the price.

 

Using a GPU for rendering or workstation use is fine as it is one much closer to the actual purpose of the product and two the output it produces isn't going to hoodwink someone into making dangerous investments.

 

Shells? This is the 21st century and Currencies should be regulated by approved governments and not no name internet hackers that are unaccountable to anyone.  

So similar to the stock market? More people lose life savings in that than crypto. It's just as volatile. Look at GME, look at new public companies.

 

So you're whole issue with it is that someone might not do enough research and cause issues for themselves? You have yet to cite any sources that say crypto is a dangerous investment, morally wrong or anything else you've said. Did you know that you can claim losses through investing in crypto on your taxes? (at least here in the states). You can literally get some of that money back. You can't do that with stock market. Just look up the "wash sale rule"

 

Shells were an example. We could use anything. Just like in Venezuela the primary currencies are now USD and BTC. Enough people lose faith in what the government tells them to spend in and suddenly it has no value. The opposite is true as well.

[Moonzy]

19 minutes ago, Ar558a said:

Because the naive will invest into crypto thinking it is a valid investment and when the bubble bursts they will lose everything

And that's crypto's fault? e.e

People making bad financial decisions is crypto's fault?

 

20 minutes ago, Ar558a said:

the output it produces isn't going to hoodwink someone into making dangerous investments.

Me mining will make my neighbor buy bitcoin? What is this logic?

 

What even is this?

[IkeaGnome]

3 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

And that's crypto's fault? e.e

People making bad financial decisions is crypto's fault?

 

Me mining will make my neighbor buy bitcoin? What is this logic?

 

What even is this?

I guess you better stop. You're funding terrorism and human trafficking. As well as the lady next door not having retirement.

Guess I shouldn't set my 2070 and 1070 up finally when I get home. I might make the moose spend on BTC also..

[dizmo]

11 hours ago, wkdpaul said:

Tesla also no ?

 

Plus, there are plenty of companies that sell gift cards in exchange for crypto (not just BTC), I personally changed my BTC and ETH into Amazon gift cards, BTC and ETH pretty much paid for my current build.

I would imagine so. I just picked a few I knew off the top of my head.

Nice. I wish I'd gotten into mining years and years ago the few times I said I'd bother. Gotta love that hindsight.

[Letgomyleghoe]

13 hours ago, Ar558a said:

the investment levels required are clearly run by large scale operations.

no they're not lmfao, please tell me how people like @Moonzy are making absolute bank with only a like a 5k investment?

13 hours ago, Ar558a said:

I love how you are all tying yourselves in knots trying to prove that GPU's are designed for mining

we're not, we're trying to say that although they are designed for mining, they work for other things. Just like how a GTX or RTX gpu is "designed" for gaming, but can be used for simulations and 3d modeling. just like how humvees were meant for the military, but are just fine as civilian cars.

13 hours ago, Ar558a said:

they aren't it's a side effect of the computational power needed for modern games.

and the modern PC is a side effect of the military needing more computational power. 

7 hours ago, Ar558a said:

It is clear you either are a miner or love them. Graphics cards are designed for Gaming, they always have been, crypto currencies have only existed in the last 10 years or so and only due to advancements designed to help gaming performance is it possible to use them to mine. 

so are you too just gonna ignore nvidia tesla, grid, quadro, radeon firepro, and radeon instinct? that seems to be a lot more GPU lines than just rtx, gtx, and radeon. Why don't you contact nvidia and amd, tell them that GPU's were made for gamers and always have been? tell them to stop making those lines of cards.

7 hours ago, Ar558a said:

I'm not saying the report is wrong I'm saying it is one source and I would need more evidence to be convinced especially given that establishment figures with more knowledge than me i.e the US treasury Secretary have questions on the same point.

yeah, well, I can tell you one thing, you don't drug dealers in real life accepting crypto. The majority of drug money is U.S cash, the majority of money used for hitman contracts is U.S cash, the list goes on.

4 hours ago, Ar558a said:

Morality is related in two ways, it's perverting the use of the technology for something which will ultimately cause hard working (but naive) people to lose their life savings. And Currency should be governed and managed by reputable governments and regulators not just random internet people.

aren't you just random internet people? what makes you qualified to say that the people running crypto currencies aren't able to do their job properly?

3 hours ago, Ar558a said:

Because the naive will invest into crypto thinking it is a valid investment and when the bubble bursts they will lose everything.

evert heard of stable coin? lmao

3 hours ago, Ar558a said:

This is the 21st century and Currencies should be regulated by approved governments and not no name internet hackers that are unaccountable to anyone.  

you know what regulates the price of all currencies? the people who use it, once people start believing their currency is worth nothing, it starts to lower in price.

38 minutes ago, dizmo said:

I would imagine so. I just picked a few I knew off the top of my head.

Nice. I wish I'd gotten into mining years and years ago the few times I said I'd bother. Gotta love that hindsight.

you still can, just gotta wait for prices to go down.

[Moonzy]

1 minute ago, Letgomyleghoe said:

please tell me how people like @Moonzy are making absolute bank with only a like a 5k investment?

At this point I'm more like $10k into it

But the 3060tis I bought in December should have gotten back their value in a week or two, so from then on it's pure profit from those cards, or at least helps me get back my ROI on other GPU that I bought at a sooner date.

 

3 minutes ago, Letgomyleghoe said:

although they are designed for mining

Pretty sure you meant Gaming*

[Letgomyleghoe]

20 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

Pretty sure you meant Gaming*

yeah, I was in a fury of typing, trying to edit my post and read through page two.