Verified actual gamer program might hurt more than it helps.

[IkeaGnome]

4 minutes ago, Ar558a said:

One, as I have stated it's my opinion, therefore it doesn't have any threshold it has to pass. Secondly, IF I was suggesting it was fact who decides what the rules are? You are claiming one report is enough to entirely proof your case, I disagree. I don't think anyone even with your leanings can really say it is an open and shut case

Here's a second

https://www.forbes.com/sites/haileylennon/2021/01/19/the-false-narrative-of-bitcoins-role-in-illicit-activity/?sh=643ecf33432f

Third

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1057567719827051?journalCode=icja

Fourth

https://bitcoinmagazine.com/business/stop-the-bitcoin-fud-criminal-cryptocurrency-transactions-are-falling

Fifth

https://decenter.org/en/cryptocurrencies-and-crime-what-do-the-statistics-say

There's plenty of sources that say its used much less in crime than you think it does. I'm not dismissing your opinion. You're stating it as fact and all I'm asking for is proof of it. You used three charts. I gave three charts that showed hard cash is volatile too. Not as volatile as crypto as you noticed, but government backed hard currency isn't safe from volatility either. You dismissed my charts as not enough information. If my charts weren't enough information how was your three charts?

[Ar558a]

1 minute ago, Moonzy said:

I have never once called him names or insulted him, only said what he said was misinformation, or bs in cruder terms

Which I backed it, saying he's denying people's evidence yet refuse to provide counter evidence, and continue to believe his previous beliefs which has been debunked

 

You seem to also confuse opinion and facts

 

If I say an apple is yellow, that's not an opinion, and if someone came up with me with a picture of a red apple and say that's false, I would believe that or come up with counter evidence

  Reveal hidden contents

But if I can't come up with counter argument and continue to believe(and possibly spread) that apple is yellow, with no backing while other people have clearly said and proved apple is red, then I would be dismissive

I'm not confusing facts and opinions, my opinion is that crypto is immoral and used extensively by criminals. You are saying that report X refutes that. I have countered that while that is some evidence for your argument it is not conclusive in my opinion. We clearly disagree both on Crypto/Mining but also what is required to change a position. It's probably best to leave it there as I'm not sure there is much more that can be said. I know you aren't gonna change my opinion and I'm sure you will say likewise. 

[FunniValentine]

7 minutes ago, Ar558a said:

I'm not confusing facts and opinions, my opinion is that crypto is immoral and used extensively by criminals. You are saying that report X refutes that. I have countered that while that is some evidence for your argument it is not conclusive in my opinion. We clearly disagree both on Crypto/Mining but also what is required to change a position. It's probably best to leave it there as I'm not sure there is much more that can be said. I know you aren't gonna change my opinion and I'm sure you will say likewise. 

Well, extensive use by criminals would probably be a statistical thing, and probably a assumption and not a opinion, while your stance on its morality is just an opinion. You make assumptions on often statistical things before looking at the evidence, wherein it should be taken in to account to alter that assumption.

[Moonzy]

2 hours ago, Ar558a said:

I know you aren't gonna change my opinion and I'm sure you will say likewise.

Been in enough crypto discussions to come up with the conclusion that in the end it all boils down to truly subjective matter, which is if mining is a waste of electricity

 

People against mining says it's not doing anything

People for mining says it's generating profit, so it's worth it to them

 

Both side of the arguments can't be debunked as it's trying to put "worth" on something which is subjective, so yes it's hard to change people's minds on something subjective, because they have previous beliefs and if it's supported by anything at all they'll continue to believe that.

 

But it's important to separate opinion and facts

Saying crypto is mainly used in criminal activities is not an opinion. It's a statement that can be proven true or false quite easily.

 

Edit: the only person I respect that's against crypto is Kisai, they always back up their claims at least

[Ar558a]

4 hours ago, Moonzy said:

Been in enough crypto discussions to come up with the conclusion that in the end it all boils down to truly subjective matter, which is if mining is a waste of electricity

 

People against mining says it's not doing anything

People for mining says it's generating profit, so it's worth it to them

 

Both side of the arguments can't be debunked as it's trying to put "worth" on something which is subjective, so yes it's hard to change people's minds on something subjective, because they have previous beliefs and if it's supported by anything at all they'll continue to believe that.

 

But it's important to separate opinion and facts

Saying crypto is mainly used in criminal activities is not an opinion. It's a statement that can be proven true or false quite easily.

 

Edit: the only person I respect that's against crypto is Kisai, they always back up their claims at least

I think the fallacy you have fallen into is that the reports you cite are fullproof and are accurately measuring the criminal use. I would suggest that this is clearly an area that is hard to measure (most digital crime is) and that the perpetrators of these crimes are the most savvy and most skilled at avoiding detection (while law enforcement are famously behind the technological curve). Comparatively shoplifting or burglary are easy to know they happened. Someone buying Stolen Credit card numbers on the dark web with crypto is much harder to know it even has occurred.

[Moonzy]

2 minutes ago, Ar558a said:

I think the fallacy you have fallen into is that the reports you cite are fullproof

that's true (i didn't cite them but still)

 

comparing one guy who says one thing without evidence with the other showing (at least) some sort of evidence, i think the one with sources is more credible (also depends on sources quality, but yea)

if you wish to disprove their sources, it takes more than "nah, i don't believe them", you need to have a reasonable explanation on why their sources are not right

 

if you still wish to stand firm on your beliefs, you do you, but just know that I can't respect your claims unless you can back them up, and your credibility isnt great if you continue to perpetuate against evidence shown without good reasoning.

 

personally i despise people spreading misinformation knowingly, not saying you are, but you require sources for your claim is all.

 

10 minutes ago, Ar558a said:

that the perpetrators of these crimes are the most savvy and most skilled at avoiding detection (while law enforcement are famously behind the technological curve). Comparatively shoplifting or burglary are easy to know they happened. Someone buying Stolen Credit card numbers on the dark web with crypto is much harder to know it even has occurred.

this may be true, but these may just be assumptions. do you have a good backing to your claims?

 

but honestly... even if so...

 

I'm tired, can we move on?

give this a read

 

again, the only valid argument i've seen is the energy consumption of mining. maybe you can debate on this point

but in the end it'll go to "is it really a waste?" debate, which will be fruitless.

[Ar558a]

24 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

comparing one guy who says one thing without evidence with the other showing (at least) some sort of evidence, i think the one with sources is more credible (also depends on sources quality, but yea)

if you wish to disprove their sources, it takes more than "nah, i don't believe them", you need to have a reasonable explanation on why their sources are not right

 

if you still wish to stand firm on your beliefs, you do you, but just know that I can't respect your claims unless you can back them up, and your credibility isnt great if you continue to perpetuate against evidence shown without good reasoning.

 

personally i despise people spreading misinformation knowingly, not saying you are, but you require sources for your claim is all.

 

I perfectly understand people struggling to follow my argument as it is built on ten years of experiences of reading news stories here and there and hearing anecdotes here and there (I would have documented them had I known) combined with opinion and a intense natural suspicion that anyone willing to use a new ungoverned currency's motives are to hide what they are doing and therefore are up to no good.  I was trying to be as transparent as possible that these were opinions and that I have not got the information to back it up (shows how difficult it is when you build up a picture over a long time but have none of the sources when you need them!).

28 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

I'm tired, can we move on?

Yes please, I didn't intend this to go on for this long! 

[Jtalk4456]

7 hours ago, Ar558a said:

I am undoubtedly, but I don't recall the debate. Debit cards are inherently dangerous as they link direct to your bank account. It is much wiser to use credit cards and pay the balance off monthly.

Dave Ramsey would have a field day with that statement. there's not a thing dangerous about a debit card, they are just as protected from fraud as a credit card. Some might argue more so, since i can run a cc without having the actual money to back it.

7 hours ago, Ar558a said:

Well so much for free speech. It seems odd to not be allowed to voice an opinion on a forum as that is what they are designed for! The fact that I feel strongly on a subject shouldn't affect my ability to voice it. It seems to me you are resistant to any crypto/mining criticism. If it is as good as you appear to believe it is it should be able to stand up to it. 

you are allowed, and so are we. And we have given fact to stand up to it, whereas you have provided nothing but assumptions and accusations

 

7 hours ago, Ar558a said:

It's this kind of stuff that annoys me. Calling my opinion BS just cause YOU dont agree is quite frankly childish.  I'm not trying to start fights but I have as much of a right to speak my opinion as anyone. 

we aren't calling it BS because we disagree on a moral or opinion based personal belief. We are calling it because there's facts that support the exact opposite of what you say. You 100% have the right to say the sky is red, that's free speech. And I 100% have the right to show you a picture of the sky that is blue, explain in scientific terms what causes the blue color of the atmosphere, guide you through google street showing you every blue corner of the sky i have the time to do so. And when you say "Nah I BELIEVE the sky is still red cuz it just makes sense to me" I have the 100% right to call it BS. I never previously said the word BS, but I can't argue with it. When you give out information that is FACTUALLY inaccurate on a forum of people grouped together because their love of technology and SCIENCE, expect to have some pushback. If I told bill nye global warming isn't real, i'd expect him to think i'm ignorant since the principal scientific concept of greenhouse gases is taught in elementary school. 

 

7 hours ago, Ar558a said:

One, as I have stated it's my opinion, therefore it doesn't have any threshold it has to pass. Secondly, IF I was suggesting it was fact who decides what the rules are? You are claiming one report is enough to entirely proof your case, I disagree. I don't think anyone even with your leanings can really say it is an open and shut case.

We've never said there's only one article to back up our point. What we have said is that we have given evidence and you have given none
But here, since it's not good enough for you have 2 minutes of quick googling finding links that work since I'm on a work computer and a lot of sites get blocked.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidbirch/2021/01/10/why-do-criminals-use-cash-and-not-bitcoin/?sh=166c85177a56

https://unchained-capital.com/blog/bitcoin-is-not-for-criminals/

https://www.cryptovantage.com/news/no-bitcoin-isnt-as-popular-with-criminals-as-previously-thought/

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/03/why-criminals-cant-hide-behind-bitcoin

https://cointelegraph.com/news/criminal-activity-in-crypto-the-fact-the-fiction-and-the-context

Quote

Employing data from the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime as well as Chainalysis, researchers revealed that U.S. fiat was used an incredible 800 times more often to launder money than Bitcoin was to fund dark net activities.

There's some reading for you. I'm out and making sure to unfollow this train wreck

[jabroni619]

If you're of the opinion that this program is allowing people to "cut the line" simply cancel your back-order and acquire one through LTT

[Kirr]

On 3/7/2021 at 7:32 PM, Ar558a said:

 

Really bad luck that your sons GPU died, it's a situation we are all dreading at the mo. As a brit we are even less happy with Queue cutting under normal circumstances, I just don't see how we could guarantee that any of the cards LMG are getting would be heading to people with pre orders from months ago and not those who are just abusing the situation.  It is Manufacturers responsibility to fulfil orders and it's pretty crappy they aren't doing it.

 

Well technically they are customers but I doubt they get much sympathy round here. They are profiteering from a perverse use of a GPU to further a crazy market in imaginary currency which as far as I can tell are only used by drug dealers, credit thieves and paedophiles.

By drug dealers, credit thieves, and pedos?

 

Well in that vein, let’s pick a small subset of the gaming “market” to call out. 
 

Domestic abusers, verbal harassment, sexual assault, racism, bigotry, or wait oh did you realize that more crimes are associated with gaming and gamers than crypto yet?

[Ar558a]

38 minutes ago, Kirr said:

By drug dealers, credit thieves, and pedos?

 

Well in that vein, let’s pick a small subset of the gaming “market” to call out. 
 

Domestic abusers, verbal harassment, sexual assault, racism, bigotry, or wait oh did you realize that more crimes are associated with gaming and gamers than crypto yet?

Another Mining Zealot got his feathers ruffled eh? 

 

Your comparison is asinine, there is a clear history of Crypto being used on the dark web to purchase many illegal products, there is clearly an argument of how much of its use this represents but that doesn't invalidate that it DOES happen.

 

I have never heard of gaming being associated with most of your list, Verbal harrassment yes and the old "leading to violence" politicians trope from the 90s but the others must be isolated minor cases not significant issues as I have never heard of them.

[Arika]

That is quite the contradiction you have made there yourself

 

15 minutes ago, Ar558a said:

Your comparison is asinine, there is a clear history of Crypto being used on the dark web to purchase many illegal products, there is clearly an argument of how much of its use this represents but that doesn't invalidate that it DOES happen.

and then immediately go on to say

Quote

I have never heard of gaming being associated with most of your list, Verbal harrassment yes and the old "leading to violence" politicians trope from the 90s but the others must be isolated minor cases not significant issues as I have never heard of them.

So because YOU have never heard of them it must not happen? Just like Your argument for mining/crypto being used by criminals, gamers CAN also become violent because of games, enough to really mean there's a direct problem with mining/crypto or gaming? no, in both cases

 

Yes it DOES happen, i've had it personally happen to me, so there is clearly an argument of how much of its cause this represents but that doesn't invalidate that it DOES happen.

[Moonzy]

19 minutes ago, Arika S said:

Just like Your argument for mining/crypto being used by criminals,

If criminal using crypto makes owning crypto (and thus mining) a criminal activity

 

Does miners who also game make gaming a criminal activity?  since mining is a criminal activity

 

Edit: I can definitely see the logic in politician's and media's view now lmfao, I'm getting dumber

[Larac]

On 3/7/2021 at 6:43 PM, Ar558a said:

Mining is morally questionable at best, you are fuelling a volatile market that vulnerable people think is a wise investment. Added to that I have seen NO legitimate businesses accepting crypto currencies which means they are largely used for crime. 

Paypal, Master Card, Goldman Sacs ok they are a crime org.
Need to get out of 1990.

[Larac]

Oh, and my little 1 card miner that is also my gaming machine, has a 10K solar to run my whole house.
My machine in mining mode runs just under 200w.
My electric still builds up credit.

 

[SimplyChunk]

On 3/7/2021 at 11:07 PM, teq3dw said:

(but very) old vega64

The Vega64 is old now?  My Nephew, bless him, is on a 2GB R9 270X cause of this shite that's going on

[tikker]

1 minute ago, YouSirAreADudeSir said:

is on a 2GB R9 270X cause of this shite that's going on

"this shite" has not been making it impossible to get a GPU for 7 years.

[SimplyChunk]

1 minute ago, tikker said:

"this shite" has not been making it impossible to get a GPU for 7 years.

True.  But like i said in my thread the other night: his 2060 Super is dead and it's all i've got for him intil i can carve my 970 out of my Sim rig

[Ar558a]

1 hour ago, Arika S said:

So because YOU have never heard of them it must not happen?

My point is if it is widespread enough to be talked about in the press etc then it's clearly a larger issue. I'm not saying there aren't isolated cases but not enough to be story (and the press would love to continue to demonise gaming if they could)

[EldritchMoose]

On 3/8/2021 at 2:43 AM, Ar558a said:

Mining is morally questionable at best, you are fuelling a volatile market that vulnerable people think is a wise investment. Added to that I have seen NO legitimate businesses accepting crypto currencies which means they are largely used for crime. 

There's at least one Vegas hotel that accepts bitcoin. Perhaps not the most shining example of non-criminal activity given the city's origins, but it's very much a legitimate business these days.

[Padblaze]

On 3/9/2021 at 10:43 PM, Moonzy said:

the only "Fair" way is to click race afaik

 

because there will surely be more people buying it than GPUs availabl, and if you dont operate on first come first serve basis, then you're probably doing random draw, which is what newegg is doing

 

wouldnt it be funny if VAG means you'll have to point and shoot some enemies in a short game or something before you can complete the purchase?

technically you played a game so you're a gamer, so

verified = must play to buy, so yes

actual = probably no bots capable of playing the game within the first 5 minutes of launching, so yes

gamer = u played a game, yes

he launchs his video when im at school lol

[Aochan]

On 3/15/2021 at 12:25 AM, Larac said:

Paypal, Master Card, Goldman Sacs ok they are a crime org.
Need to get out of 1990.

Which of these aren't heavily regulated by international standards and treaties? Which one promise you dreams of infinite money and ask you to never spend your money so it don't lose value? Which one require the power of a small country to process a minuscule amount of transactions per year?

 

No one is pretending that modern finance is heaven; but if Visa or MC were hacked and money literally disappeared, you know half the planet would be in trouble. Meanwhile people get constantly scammed out of their delusion coins and everyone is "prayers and thoughts" and "be your own bank", which is not really a good suggestion since the average person is dumb, and is even dumber around money.

[Xeno3568]

On 3/14/2021 at 6:19 PM, Ar558a said:

My point is if it is widespread enough to be talked about in the press etc then it's clearly a larger issue. I'm not saying there aren't isolated cases but not enough to be story (and the press would love to continue to demonise gaming if they could)

Mining is neither good or bad, it can lean towards both sides, but will ultimately remain in the middle. Yes, it is used in criminal activity, however many smart investors also take advantage of it, this includes many miners such as @Moonzy they know when they can earn profits and when they can lose profits, mining is having a GPU find a complex algorithm, its math, and all a computer does is math, thats all any part does, complex equations build up to whats on your screen, your games. you cant say Cryto is bad or immorral because many people today see mining as a good thing, it generates them profits through an investment, folding takes advantage of this since running the simmulations is simply math, the hash rate is a measurement of how well it does this, mining is needed for many believe it or not, people who lost their job are a few who turned to this solution. many currencies will be unstable since they are used to gain profit, thats all it is, ultimately everything changes in value, Crypto does it at a crazy rate because people see it purely as a chance to get rich, today we see many people being dumbasses that invest poorly, but also those who invest wisely, its all about persepective and which group you are in, Crypto is a block of encrypted data in which a GPU was needed to discover the algorithm, its not physical, but digital, still an existing object regulated by how people make it flow, saying theres no real product is like saying Windows 10 isnt a real product, Windows 10 is digital, and so is Crytocurrency.

 

To put it simple, Crypto may not be tangible, but its real, regulated by the people who invest in it and mine it, and the way to mine it is finding the algorithm which is done by a GPU, which brings more into circulation, theres a limited amount of it just like gold or silver, in the end nobody should be salty towards miners or gamers, but rather the scalpers which were and still remain the biggest issue with GPU stocks, the goal of the Actual Gamer Verified Program is to get these cards into the hands of gamers who struggle to get parts due to the scalpers because they likely dont have quite as much money as an average miner, but a gamer could use this hardware for mining on the side so they can at least get their money back and a bit extra, something I would participate in if i could afford one of the cards. Crypto Currency is fine, and in my opion is neutral, it all depends on the users.

[wONKEyeYEs]

On 3/11/2021 at 3:03 PM, morality2021 said:

but your whole take on what's 'moral' or not is so mindboggling

Matthew 7:6

 

[Papa Sierra]

On 3/7/2021 at 3:17 PM, teq3dw said:

I know the program is very vell intentioned and can help people buy these cards for MSRP now. But as long as companies have not finished shipping cards that have been ordered and paid for AT LAUNCH, it is a slap in the face to every one of their customers still awaiting their the arrival of their order.

I for one bought a 3080 strix mid september and yet my retailer simply didn't get the card yet. And no, they are not selling the card at scalper prices right now they delisted all these cards for the time being so I believe their email status updates claiming that they simply don't know when the card might arrive.

Now you could say that this might be a single incident and I am simply unlucky and chose the wrong retailer, but thanks to proshop and their transparency regarding order numbers, you can see that I am not alone in this.(https://www.proshop.de/RTX-30series-overview) For example the 3080 TUF still shows 250 unfilled customer orders from launch day. That is 250 people waiting for their cards while those very cards now get sold to others in the verified actual gamer program.

Of course companies take the free publicity to take part in this well intentioned program, but if they really had our best intentions at heart, they would fill all these old orders first.

 

Sorry for the rant and I respect the well meaning effort here, but you are at the same time giving companies free advertising on the back off paying customers waiting for almost half a year for their card.

 

The Tuf is cancelled .. I don't believe they will ever get those cards. Only the Tuf OC is being sold by Asus now.