PC gaming change focus just to APUs and Laptops? We should stop thinking of GPU's as gaming hardware. Change my mind.

[Uttamattamakin]

8 minutes ago, HelpfulTechWizard said:

No, I meant modern asin mobile 1060 and up. I believe the mobile 1060s are about half as good as a desktop, and a Vega 11 is about half as good as a desktop 1060.

 

How to compare a mobile 1060 .... to a Ryzen 7 5800H or 4700G?   To me this varies greatly.  I may be very pleased with my 3200G build because I carefully speced it with a good cooling solution with a 95W TDP, SFF case with really great air flow, and lots of ram.  So pretty much any task I throw at it from training a neural network to running relativistic simulations (while not as detailed as I could with CUDA real relativistic tensor manipulation) it gets them done in reasonable time, and at acceptable temps peaking at 70 C.  (Though I wish I'd gone with a tower cooler with a 300 W TDP.  AIO's are not as reliable as I want in a workstation. 

 

Also LMBO at Linus being consistently inconsistent. 

I mean... if folks want to think that they know better than every optics textbook fine. This ain't science class. Maybe some folks have sight beyond sight. 

[Helpful Tech Witch]

3 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

Physics is what it is. 

It's historically not though. Physics can never be agreed soon by every one. How many forms of physics are there like 3?

 

12 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

The average user is what companies target with their products

So the average user is someone who needs a 3090!?!? Because Nvidia had a target for that card.

 

 

 

 

 

Is the point you are trying to prove that you either need no gpu or all of the gpu? Because that seems to be what you are saying.

[Helpful Tech Witch]

2 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

How to compare a mobile 1060 .... to a Ryzen 7 5800H or 4700G?   To me this varies greatly.  I may be very pleased with my 3200G build because I carefully speced it with a good cooling solution with a 95W TDP, SFF case with really great air flow, and lots of ram.  So pretty much any task I throw at it from training a neural network to running relativistic simulations (while not as detailed as I could with CUDA real relativistic tensor manipulation) it gets them done in reasonable time, and at acceptable temps peaking at 70 C.  (Though I wish I'd gone with a tower cooler with a 300 W TDP.  AIO's are not as reliable as I want in a workstation. 

Whichever has a Vega 11? All Vega 11s are the same, the only difference is how well you can cool it.

[Helpful Tech Witch]

3 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

 

Also LMBO at Linus being consistently inconsistent. 

It's true dude. The guy is making very important mistakes, one in more recent memory is not having 5600x pricing right I'm the review

[Uttamattamakin]

2 minutes ago, HelpfulTechWizard said:

It's historically not though. Physics can never be agreed soon by every one. How many forms of physics are there like 3?

 

HUH?   There is such a thing as settled science.  Basics of optics and mechanics are such facts.  

 

3 minutes ago, HelpfulTechWizard said:

Is the point you are trying to prove that you either need no gpu or all of the gpu? Because that seems to be what you are saying.

I'm not arguing both.  

I came to find out the grim reality that ... without APU's being officially avaialble to buy outside of a pre built there is no real way to build a system from parts one can really obtain.  Go to a Micro Center or similar and not be one of the first 20 in line.  You can either pay 500 to 600 for a "entry level " card.  Or 2000 for a quadro or get stuck with a GT 1030. 

 

Otherwise you have no video output....and a useless computer. 

[Helpful Tech Witch]

1 minute ago, Uttamattamakin said:

6 minutes ago, HelpfulTechWizard said:

 

HUH?   There is such a thing as settled science.  Basics of optics and mechanics are such facts.  

The newtonian physics model.

The standard physics model

The non newtonian model.

2 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

came to find out the grim reality that ... without APU's being officially avaialble to buy outside of a pre built there is no real way to build a system from parts one can really obtain.  Go to a Micro Center or similar and not be one of the first 20 in line.  You can either pay 500 to 600 for a "entry level " card.  Or 2000 for a quadro or get stuck with a GT 103

Or go to a not microcenter where they have like 3 3070s and a 3080 in stock. For msrp.

[Uttamattamakin]

3 minutes ago, HelpfulTechWizard said:

Whichever has a Vega 11? All Vega 11s are the same, the only difference is how well you can cool it.

That would be the 3400G.  As for all of them being the same.  This is not really the case.  For example the Vega 8's in a 4700 or 5800 are a bit more refined.  

 

(7) Ryzen 5 3400G vs Ryzen 7 4700G in 5 Games iGPU Comparison - YouTube

[Helpful Tech Witch]

1 minute ago, Uttamattamakin said:

That would be the 3400G.  As for all of them being the same.  This is not really the case.  For example the Vega 8's in a 4700 or 5800 are a bit more refined.  

 

(7) Ryzen 5 3400G vs Ryzen 7 4700G in 5 Games iGPU Comparison - YouTube

Same hw though, all have a Vega architecture with 11cus.

[Uttamattamakin]

4 minutes ago, HelpfulTechWizard said:

The newtonian physics model.

The standard physics model

The non newtonian model.

Or go to a not microcenter where they have like 3 3070s and a 3080 in stock. For msrp.

The 'Non newtonian model" I take it you mean Einstein's Relativity.  

 

By the standard model I take you to mean Particle Physics. 

 

At low energy and low velocity those both reduce to Newtonian physics.  One can derive Newton's laws from General Relativity.  One can also derive Newton's laws from Quantum field theoretical computations.  

 

In fact all of the physics we know can be expressed with one equation.  Which at most velocities and energies gives good predictions (it breaks down when we get to energies near that of the big bang or in strong gravity like near the big bang or a black hole). 

 

Don't take my word for it.  

I'd put my actual name here and invite you to google scholar me.  I am a published theoretical astrophysicists myself.  But what do I know about anything. 

[The_russian]

2 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

It is a fact that most people buy laptops.  Thus most games are actually written with an eye towards the computers that most people have. 

I am not saying that more people are buying desktops for general use, that’s pretty easy to disprove. What I am guessing (I don’t feel like taking the time to find a source, and you are the one that made the claim so burden of proof is on you) is that more people are buying desktops than laptops for the purpose of gaming.

I am not a game developer so I don’t know how games are developed, but judging from what I can see, games are developed to take advantage of the current top graphics cards, or maybe even the soon to be released ones. I don’t think games are developed for the average hardware (GTX 1060) since that would mean game development would have staggered over the last few years, which I don’t see to be the case.

15 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

Creating the greatest game in the world that no one can run is only useful if you want to be the new meme.   Being the next "can it run Crysis" might be fun ... but that hasn't really worked out for CP 2077 has it? 

CP 2077 had many more problems than being hard to run, such as having countless glitches and bugs. If the only “problem” the game had when it was released was that it was difficult to run, I think it would have had much better results. And to counter your example, the new MS Flight Sim is basically the new “can it run Crysis?”, and it seems to be working out fine for them, is it not?

19 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

The game would be making more money and more enjoyable for more people if it had been written with say a 1060 as "medium" and a 2060 as maximum.

Not sure where you got that idea from. If a AAA game was released today that ran exactly the same on a 2060 as a 3090, most people would be extremely mad and call it one of the worst optimized games. 
 

I don’t understand why you continue to make progressively stupider claims that are easily disproved. I think I can see what you mean, which is that most people don’t need an RTX 3090 to enjoy gaming which I actually agree with, however the way in which you are going about trying to convince others of that is just making people less likely to agree with you.

[Letgomyleghoe]

6 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

  It is not even that much nicer to have one.

clearly you haven't played at 1440p 144hz 1ms or better.
 

6 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

Everything you can do on a PC with a good APU can be done on one with a GPU.  The GPU will make it more visually pleasing but at the cost of a whole computer.

tell that to people who render stuff, or use their gpu for a job or work, gpu's are tool, just like everything else, sure you might not ever need a 60 foot crane, but doesn't mean other people don't. tell that to people who stream or edit video, tell that to people who literally sit inside inside all day due to covid or other reasons. again, just because you don't want one or don't need one doesn't mean others do.
 

6 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

They aren't for you anymore and you do not need them. 

gEfOrCe AnD Rx IsN't FoR yOu BuY qUaDrO oR fIrEpRo, gEfOrCe AnD rX Is FoR gAmErS. 

 

[Zodiark1593]

7 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

• Most PC users of any kind just have one laptop.  (Just one source  There are others https://gs.statcounter.com/platform-market-share/desktop-mobile-tablet) 
• That laptop has a smallish screen which is used at arms length.  Where it is a mathematical fact that 4k resolution will make no discernible difference.  (Fundamental physics of how optical systems work. Source education.  Citation https://www.macworld.co.uk/feature/retina-display-3466732/  Computer screens exceeded our ability to discern the dots on them at distance a long time ago. ) 
• Those PC's all use either a Ryzen APU or intel graphics or have a discrete but mobile GPU which performs just a little better than an APU.  (Take a look at the specs of most computers avaiable in store at say a Wal Mart, Target, or Best Buy.  Most gamers are regular people who will just buy their do it all laptop there. )  
• Most of the rest buy prebuilt from major names.  (If you think most ordinary people, the market everything is really for, build a computer get real.  At best us LTT viewers are just a less famous tier of influencer at best.) 

My sole laptop uses an Atom Z3735F. It uhh, plays Stardew Valley with some hiccups.

My iPhone 11 actually does curb stomp this thing, and for that matter, my old phone as well. 

 

[PlayStation 2]

I'm gonna be honest: resolution plays far more of a factor in image clarity than anyone ever expects it to... I say that because most people don't realize this until you've experienced how chunky shit can look on a phone screen.

Case in point: SpongeBob SquarePants: Battle for Bikini Bottom Rehydrated. From a ~2.5ft viewing angle on my iPhone SE, I can't tell much of a difference from the High settings and Epic settings for resolution scale. I believe High is the equivalent of an 80% scale while Epic is native resolution. Medium is roughly 60%. I could see a very noticeable difference between Medium and High.

If I can tell the difference between Medium and High on a tiny ass phone screen (for reference, an iPhone SE 2020) then I'd most certainly be able to discern it on a much larger laptop screen - much less my 30" Behemoth from Another Era. I really dislike playing at non-native resolutions in most of what I play for that reason alone - because it looks unclear. I couldn't put up with an APU unless I could really play most of what I wanted at native resolutions.

[Uttamattamakin]

7 minutes ago, Zodiark1593 said:

My sole laptop uses an Atom Z3735F. It uhh, plays Stardew Valley with some hiccups.

My iPhone 11 actually does curb stomp this thing, and for that matter, my old phone as well. 

 

That's another valid point.  With phones being universal it is a matter of time before we see gaming at PC level on them.  The real limiter on my Samsung note 20 ultra is HEAT.  Pair a phone with some good cooling mouse keyboard... and it can be a gaming beast.  

Not a true Personal Computer.  ARM platforms that are locked down just can't be that.  They can be computing appliances.  That's all the market seems willing to provide at a reasonable price in obtainable quantities. 

[Uttamattamakin]

2 minutes ago, PlayStation 2 said:

I'm gonna be honest: resolution plays far more of a factor in image clarity than anyone ever expects it to... I say that because most people don't realize this until you've experienced how chunky shit can look on a phone screen.

Case in point: SpongeBob SquarePants: Battle for Bikini Bottom Rehydrated. From a ~2.5ft viewing angle on my iPhone SE, I can't tell much of a difference from the High settings and Epic settings for resolution scale. I believe High is the equivalent of an 80% scale while Epic is native resolution. Medium is roughly 60%. I could see a very noticeable difference between Medium and High.

If I can tell the difference between Medium and High on a tiny ass phone screen (for reference, an iPhone SE 2020) then I'd most certainly be able to discern it on a much larger laptop screen - much less my 30" Behemoth from Another Era. I really dislike playing at non-native resolutions in most of what I play for that reason alone - because it looks unclear. I couldn't put up with an APU unless I could really play most of what I wanted at native resolutions.

The mathematics don't lie.  The angular resolution of any optical system is settled science I've cited many sources for that. 

 

HOWEVER, I'll hazard this guess.  Changing the settings on the phone app you mention does more than change the resolution.  It changes other things like texture quality anti aliasing frame rate power consumption etc etc.  

 

Take a PC game on a laptop screen and hold all of the settings constant except resolution.  All you'll notice about going from 4k to 1080 p is that at 1080p you'll have a much higher frame rate. 

Now on a large screen this is different. 

[PlayStation 2]

Just now, Uttamattamakin said:

The mathematics don't lie.  The angular resolution of any optical system is settled science I've cited many sources for that. 

 

HOWEVER, I'll hazard this guess.  Changing the settings on the phone app you mention does more than change the resolution.  It changes other things like texture quality anti aliasing frame rate power consumption etc etc.  

 

Take a PC game on a laptop screen and hold all of the settings constant except resolution.  All you'll notice about going from 4k to 1080 p is that at 1080p you'll have a much higher frame rate. 

Now on a large screen this is different. 

Battle for Bikini Bottom Rehydrated's resolution settings operates independently of anything else in the game. It also has a setting for general visual quality and anti-aliasing. I know my eyesight's starting to get on at my old age of... 20, but I could quite easily pick out how much shittier 60% scale looked compared to 80%, much less 100%.

There's a point where resolution scales can work - I play Tower Unite with an 89% resolution scale and it's almost unnoticeable to me compared to a flat 100% scale at 2560x1600 - where I'm sitting much closer to the monitor instead of when I play BfBB on my phone with a controller. It helps that the game's TAA solution isn't bad at all. But playing something like Team Fortress 2, a game that very much leans on MSAA rather than anything post-processing, at anything besides native resolution makes the game look rough.

 

And it's not like I can't play a game at native resolution. Just ask my boyfriend. I've managed to trudge through more than a few PS2 games scaled up to my monitor hooked up to a capture card. My name is very much relevant here, for once. But I'd rather not run shit at native resolution, it can make things look ugly very quickly. I learned that when I played The Crew 2.

[Damascus]

8 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

I have gamed under linux on a Ryzen 3200G.  At 720p the game was Total War Shogun 2.  It was ... acceptable.

What if I want to play something that isn't ten years old on my 34" monitor tho, bro

[WhitetailAni]

8 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

Here are the facts: 

• Most PC users of any kind just have one laptop. 
• That laptop has a smallish screen which is used at arms length.  Where it is a mathematical fact that 4k resolution will make no discernible difference. 
• Those PC's all use either a Ryzen APU or intel graphics or have a discrete but mobile GPU which performs just a little better than an APU. 
• Most of the rest buy prebuilt from major names. 

The above are statements of fact.   Below here is an opinion.

Alright, let's go through them one by one.

8 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

Most PC users of any kind just have one laptop. 

Please provide a statistic and source.

8 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

That laptop has a smallish screen which is used at arms length.  Where it is a mathematical fact that 4k resolution will make no discernible difference. 

Again, statistic and source please.

8 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

Those PC's all use either a Ryzen APU or intel graphics or have a discrete but mobile GPU which performs just a little better than an APU. 

Disagree.

You're telling me the 3070 mobile or the 3080 mobile is only slightly better than UHD 630 graphics?
Or that a 2070 Max-Q is only slightly better than a Vega 6?

It's possible for people to have a powerful tower and a powerful laptop.

8 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

Most of the rest buy prebuilt from major names. 

Uh, what?
I'm not saying it's not plausible, but I'd like sources.

 

[Craftyawesome]

Does anyone else sit closer to their laptop than arm's length? My arm might also be a bit shorter than average.

 

Also why are we so quick to dismiss hyperacuity? Seems applicable to pixels, especially without AA.

[GDRRiley]

the 3060 which just launched today is such a bad value
I'm waiting for 6700/6700xt with my RX580 cus I don't see a point. It edits 4k pro res or DNXHR well and it handles 1440p for my older games decently even as I try and push 144hz

[Uttamattamakin]

7 hours ago, Damascus said:

What if I want to play something that isn't ten years old on my 34" monitor tho, bro

Then you are SOL for now.  As I realized last night with new APU's being nearly impossible to find we all ahve no choice but to use whatever GPU we can find just to get a video output on our AMD builds.  In fact given what I have seen it was a mistake for AMD to not include graphics on every processor as Intel does.  

 

That alone means for now even if Ryzen is better ... good luck building a usable PC with no video output.

[Uttamattamakin]

5 hours ago, Craftyawesome said:

Does anyone else sit closer to their laptop than arm's length? My arm might also be a bit shorter than average.

 

Also why are we so quick to dismiss hyperacuity? Seems applicable to pixels, especially without AA.

"Hyper acuity" some are claiming, being able to see the individual pixels on the screen, requires breaking the laws of optics.   To argue with them isn't to argue with me ... but with a large well understood body of well tested science.  

[Uttamattamakin]

7 hours ago, FakeKGB said:

Alright, let's go through them one by one.

Please provide a statistic and source.

Again, statistic and source please.

Disagree.

You're telling me the 3070 mobile or the 3080 mobile is only slightly better than UHD 630 graphics?
Or that a 2070 Max-Q is only slightly better than a Vega 6?

It's possible for people to have a powerful tower and a powerful laptop.

Uh, what?
I'm not saying it's not plausible, but I'd like sources.

 

Sources have been provided for thr three facts.  

 

Then you point out the 3070 mobile etc.  Notice what most gamers use is a 1060.  A Ryzen APU is as good as a 1050... then only require finding one unobtainable part for your build. 

[Rym]

An APU can't pull 144 fps with realistic graphics set to max for 144Hz refresh rate.

 

If I want an..."acceptable" or "okay" experience I have real life. If I want an enjoyable experience 20 fps or 30 fps motion blurred consoles are not enjoyable.

 

 

Graphics cards have begun simulating actual reality behaviors in games (RTX), this will keep on improving further down the line.

[Craftyawesome]

3 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

"Hyper acuity" some are claiming, being able to see the individual pixels on the screen, requires breaking the laws of optics.   To argue with them isn't to argue with me ... but with a large well understood body of well tested science.  

So your argument is that hyperacuity isn't a large enough or well tested science?