PC gaming change focus just to APUs and Laptops? We should stop thinking of GPU's as gaming hardware. Change my mind.

[Kilrah]

2 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

Most PC users of any kind just have one laptop. 

And most don't game on it, they work on it.

 

When you look at people who buy a laptop with the intent to game on it they won't get something that's only capable of gaming at 720p.

[Uttamattamakin]

17 minutes ago, manikyath said:

you're completely right... but you forget one major aspect:

 

- high end graphics cards push the bounds for what developers can do, so the overpriced halo products of today drive the innovation we see tomorrow.

 

High end graphics cards would do that even if they are not used for gamers. 

 

Afterall, Nvidia was started by people who used to work at Silicon Graphics.  SGI and others made $10,000 + Unix based workstations for government, big science, and hollywood.     Even if those guys hadn't started Nvidia the tech would trickle down.    

In fact given what I just said the GPU returning to being the province, for all practical purposes of, Government, Hollywood, big science, big business, etc, is just Nvidia et al returning to their roots.    The GPU being for gamers was a nice distraction for a decade or so... but since the 10 series it has been back where it came from.  The top. 

[Uttamattamakin]

Just now, Kilrah said:

And most don't game on it, they work on it.

 

When you look at people who buy a laptop with the intent to game on it they won't get something that's only capable of gaming at 720p.

Have you had to provide any kind of tech support for say... a classroom full of college students?  Prime gamer age people.  

The most common laptops there are mac Books.  The rest are Ryzen APU's.  Source for this is what I've noted my students use in Astronomy class. 

[RAS_3885]

2 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

In fact given what I just said the GPU returning to being the province, for all practical purposes of, Government, Hollywood, big science, big business, etc, is just Nvidia et al returning to their roots.    The GPU being for gamers was a nice distraction for a decade or so... but since the 10 series it has been back where it came from

Source?

[Grabhanem]

Let me lay it out this way:

 

I have a GTX 1070. It's a nearly 5-year-old midrange desktop card. It's not falling short of what I need, but it's not overkill either. It can maintain 144fps at 1080p in pretty much all the games I play, and it's used to its full potential doing that.

 

No integrated graphics solution has ever come within even a fraction of that gaming performance in visually demanding titles, which I legitimately enjoy playing more when I can turn up detail settings. It wasn't until Ampere that even a dedicated mobile graphics card beat the desktop 1070 by more than about 20%.

 

I do own a laptop. It's an integrated-graphics workstation model from 2013, with a fairly competent CPU but very little gaming ability at all. Having a desktop graphics card means that I don't need to replace my hardware every year to get acceptable gaming performance, meaning my total hardware spending -- and total waste footprint -- is vastly less.

[Elisis]

6 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

but mobile GPU which performs just a little better than an APU.

Just a little better? Many mobile GPUs get over double the framerate compared to even modern iGPUs.

[Vishera]

1 minute ago, Uttamattamakin said:

Most PC users of any kind just have one laptop.  (Just one source  There are others https://gs.statcounter.com/platform-market-share/desktop-mobile-tablet) 

The fact that i have a laptop doesn't mean that it's better than my desktop.

3 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

That laptop has a smallish screen which is used at arms length.  Where it is a mathematical fact that 4k resolution will make no discernible difference.  (Fundamental physics of how optical systems work. Source education.  Citation https://www.macworld.co.uk/feature/retina-display-3466732/  Computer screens exceeded our ability to discern the dots on them at distance a long time ago. ) 

Well,the problem with this is that you twist facts according to your bias,

While pixel density is more accurate than just a resolution,it's important to note that it depends on the size of the screen,and the person's vision.

7 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

Most of the rest buy prebuilt from major names.  (If you think most ordinary people, the market everything is really for, build a computer get real.  At best us LTT viewers are just a less famous tier of influencer at best.) 

It's usually because they lack the knowledge to build a PC.

And the average Joe is not technically knowledgeable.

[Uttamattamakin]

2 minutes ago, Vishera said:

The fact that i have a laptop doesn't mean that it's better than my desktop.

 

Does not mean it is better. 

 

However, if like most people you just have the one computer.  Since computers aren't cheap.... that is what games should be designed to.  With perhaps the option for those few patricians and influencers who can get a GPU or who use one to make revenue and so the cost is not prohibitive to experience a better game. 

 

However, the idea that RT and Tensor cores and So many Stream processors NVENC or its' AMD equivalent CUDA or Open CL are at all relevant or matter is an illusion.  

Hell... given the installed base of Intel based laptops out there it would be wise for most game studios to call "medium" whatever an intel IGPU can do.    

[Elisis]

3 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

Since computers aren't cheap.... that is what games should be designed to. 

Except the outliers want more. For those lower tech gaymers, just run at lower settings. It's not difficult. There's no reason to essentially punish the higher end people just because there exist people who play at the lower end.

[Uttamattamakin]

9 minutes ago, Grabhanem said:

Let me lay it out this way:

 

I have a GTX 1070. It's a nearly 5-year-old midrange desktop card. It's not falling short of what I need, but it's not overkill either. It can maintain 144fps at 1080p in pretty much all the games I play, and it's used to its full potential doing that.

 

No integrated graphics solution has ever come within even a fraction of that gaming performance in visually demanding titles, which I legitimately enjoy playing more when I can turn up detail settings. It wasn't until Ampere that even a dedicated mobile graphics card beat the desktop 1070 by more than about 20%.

 

I do own a laptop. It's an integrated-graphics workstation model from 2013, with a fairly competent CPU but very little gaming ability at all. Having a desktop graphics card means that I don't need to replace my hardware every year to get acceptable gaming performance, meaning my total hardware spending -- and total waste footprint -- is vastly less.

I have an old GTX 1080.   It was the ONLY one on the shelf when I lucked into it.  The ONLY one in the store when I lucked into it.   I have been playing GTA V 4k 30+/- FPS no issues on a large monitor.  I also built a computer 

 

Implied in my argument is that ... we are not the average users in this forum.   Think of most of the people you know.  ALL of them have a cell phone.  Likely if they game they use that.  Why not just forget the PC as a game platform at all if the components needed to make it competitive can't be had at any price that makes sense .... 

 

Any price that makes sense unless you use the GPU for some business related, income generating, activity.   Mining or other. 

 

In short... I am thinking.  We as a community should use our influence to boycott NVidia and AMD GPU's from now on.  Stop buying them.  Stop trying to buy them.  Just get used to games you can play on an APU or IGP or console.    At least until they really truly show that they are trying to make cards FOR GAMERS.  Even if that means selling them EXCLUSIVELY IN PERSON. 

 

Now I'm going to go offline and try to exercise.  I am late for a class 10 Chicago miles away. 

[Kilrah]

12 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

if the components needed to make it competitive can't be had at any price that makes sense

For a year.

 

12 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

In short... I am thinking.  We as a community should use our influence to boycott NVidia and AMD GPU's from now on.  Stop buying them.  Stop trying to buy them.  

Bahahahaha  No. I'll continue enjoying FS2020 in VR on my 3080, thank you.

 

Really that seems like another one of these nonsensical "I can't afford/source what I actually want right now and I must convince everyone they don't need it either to get over my frustration" threads, with an added sprinkle of "nobody should make games my hardware can't run"...

[Elisis]

2 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

At least until they really truly show that they are trying to make cards FOR GAMERS

So tell a multibillion dollar company to stop doing things that make them a multibillion dollar company? It isn't economically feasible to make cards just for gamers.

[Grabhanem]

1 minute ago, Uttamattamakin said:

Does not mean it is better. 

 

However, if like most people you just have the one computer.  Since computers aren't cheap.... that is what games should be designed to.  With perhaps the option for those few patricians and influencers who can get a GPU or who use one to make revenue and so the cost is not prohibitive to experience a better game. 

 

However, the idea that RT and Tensor cores and So many Stream processors NVENC or its' AMD equivalent CUDA or Open CL are at all relevant or matter is an illusion.  

Hell... given the installed base of Intel based laptops out there it would be wise for most game studios to call "medium" whatever an intel IGPU can do.    

I legitimately have no idea what you're arguing here. Do you think there should be a bigger economic divide between the "elite" gamers and the "plebs"?

 

Throw away CUDA and OpenCL? What about everyone who edits video on the side? What about all the hardware accelerated compute features you take for granted that make your precious laptops usable on a day-to-day basis, that rely on flexible, multi-function GPU cores?

 

Sure, you could set intel igpus as the benchmark for game performance, but this would just be a step back of a decade in graphical quality for no reason. Despite your protestations, the majority of gamers aren't using laptop igpus. They're using older midrange desktop cards like the 1060 and 1070. Intel holds less than 9% of the Steam user market share, less than the share of the 1060 alone.

[WhitetailAni]

3 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

Think of most of the people you know.  ALL of them have a cell phone.  Likely if they game they use that.  Why not just forget the PC as a game platform at all if the components needed to make it competitive can't be had at any price that makes sense ....

Minecraft PE sucks.

You can't play Civ 6 on a phone.

4 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

In short... I am thinking.  We as a community should use our influence to boycott NVidia and AMD GPU's from now on.  Stop buying them.  Stop trying to buy them.  Just get used to games you can play on an APU or IGP or console.    At least until they really truly show that they are trying to make cards FOR GAMERS.  Even if that means selling them EXCLUSIVELY IN PERSON. 

This will never happen.
Ever.

4 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

Now I'm going to go offline and try to exercise.  I am late for a class 10 Chicago miles away. 

Have fun!

[The_russian]

7 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

Most PC users of any kind just have one laptop.  (Just one source  There are others https://gs.statcounter.com/platform-market-share/desktop-mobile-tablet) 

While it does show that mobile makes up more market share, that is for overall use and doesn't help prove your overall point which is about gaming. I would guess that most people that are buying laptops are using it either for work or personal use, not gaming. Here's a study that showed laptop market share by end use in 2017:

Source: https://www.grandviewresearch.com/industry-analysis/laptop-market

 

While the data is from 2017, I would guess that the overall market share hasn't changed much, and if anything the gaming share probably dropped because of people working and learning from home. Since I haven't bothered looking for a more recent market share breakdown though, I'm not going to say that is a fact, like some people might *cough* *cough* .

8 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

That laptop has a smallish screen which is used at arms length.  Where it is a mathematical fact that 4k resolution will make no discernible difference.  (Fundamental physics of how optical systems work. Source education.  Citation https://www.macworld.co.uk/feature/retina-display-3466732/  Computer screens exceeded our ability to discern the dots on them at distance a long time ago. ) 

That article describes what a Retina display is, it does not mathematically prove that 4k resolution will make no discernible difference.

9 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

Those PC's all use either a Ryzen APU or intel graphics or have a discrete but mobile GPU which performs just a little better than an APU.  (Take a look at the specs of most computers avaiable in store at say a Wal Mart, Target, or Best Buy.  Most gamers are regular people who will just buy their do it all laptop there. )  

You didn't give a source for your claim that mobile GPUs perform only "a little better" than an APU. You also made another claim (most gamers are regular people who will just buy their do it all laptop at Walmart, Target, or Best Buy) without a source. 

12 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

Most of the rest buy prebuilt from major names.  (If you think most ordinary people, the market everything is really for, build a computer get real.  At best us LTT viewers are just a less famous tier of influencer at best.) 

While you still didn't provide a source, this claim doesn't really make sense for your overall point. Like someone has already mentioned, a lot of those prebuilt gaming PCs will have a discrete graphics card, so this doesn't prove your point that no one has a need for anything better than an iGPU or APU unless they are making money from it. 

[manikyath]

1 minute ago, Uttamattamakin said:

High end graphics cards would do that even if they are not used for gamers. 

but if they exist, and if a minority (let's say 10%) of gamers can afford them, is there any reason why they should not get them?

 

also, i buy needlessly high end with my hardware. why? because as i've stated before i've been using my graphics card for 6 years. i can stomach the pricetag on a big gpu, because it'll give me the peace of mind that i wont have to think about it again for quite a few years to come.

 

3 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

Have you had to provide any kind of tech support for say... a classroom full of college students?  Prime gamer age people.  

The most common laptops there are mac Books.  The rest are Ryzen APU's.  Source for this is what I've noted my students use in Astronomy class. 

i have, hard disagree.

the macbook crowd is a very specific segment, that is very real. past that i've probably seen more eco shitboxes and mid-to-high end 'gaming grade' laptops than i've seen the ryzen APU level of device.

 

source: two years of failing upwards in college, and 4 years in the field supporting everything from parents who suddenly have a 10 year old having to learn from home, to leaders in medical technology.

 

also, if i'd have to talk about the devices people are actually interested in buying as a family or kids' computer, i'd have to say the more high end laptops (and gaming desktops for that matter...) are far more desirable for average joe. the simple fact is that the kids prefer hearing "it's faster" and the parents prefer hearing "it'll stay relevant for longer".

 

as for why the majority of your sampling of people would have APU boxes: if you walk into worst buy and go to whatever laptop they recommend.. it'll ALWAYS be the same: an APU box. why? because it's an okay choice for 99% of customers they get. none of them get the laptop that suits them best, but none of them get an absolute terrible choice. it's a nice middle of the road, any untrained sales guy can point at the same laptop whatever the customer just said, and it'll be a well enough fit for them to consider the buy. that's ALL it is about.

 

as for why my sampling is specificly not that at all: they're all either people who go spec peeping between douzens of laptop designs, or people who follow advice of those who do.

---

 

i'd like to remind you of your own starting argument: that no one should game on a high end GPU anymore, and how we should try to convince you otherwise. i dont know how many pages of forum thread we'll need to convince you that this is an incredibly shallow premise based on what you see in a very small sampling detached from the argument you are making. i suppose the answer here is that if you are not open to a change in mindset, there is no purpose in trying. all has been said, all points has been made. if at this point you have not changed your mind, nothing will change your mind.

 

and well... that's fine too, it's a free world, you have your opinion, people who buy high end graphics cards have theirs. that's the beauty of the world we live in: you can make your choice, and that choice does not necessarily have to be better or worse than anyone else's. if you ask people to convince you you are wrong, expect people to tell you you are wrong. 

[Moonzy]

10 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

In short... I am thinking.  We as a community should use our influence to boycott NVidia and AMD GPU's from now on.  Stop buying them.  Stop trying to buy them.  Just get used to games you can play on an APU or IGP or console.    At least until they really truly show that they are trying to make cards FOR GAMERS.  Even if that means selling them EXCLUSIVELY IN PERSON. 

While I don't agree to this extreme level

 

Getting used to lower end is something that SOME of us in the community should really practice, especially when getting a higher end GPU for gaming nowadays is not worth (imo) the asking price.

Instead of bitching about the availability and scalpers.

[Grabhanem]

4 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

I have an old GTX 1080.   It was the ONLY one on the shelf when I lucked into it.  The ONLY one in the store when I lucked into it.   I have been playing GTA V 4k 30+/- FPS no issues on a large monitor.  I also built a computer

You bought your GPU in the middle of a short-term GPU shortage, just like we currently have. That doesn't mean that cards in general are always impossible to find. There are more than 2.4 million GTX 1080s currently in use on Steam.

Quote

Implied in my argument is that ... we are not the average users in this forum.   Think of most of the people you know.  ALL of them have a cell phone.  Likely if they game they use that.  Why not just forget the PC as a game platform at all if the components needed to make it competitive can't be had at any price that makes sense .... 

Most of the people I know game on PC. Most of the people I know who game on laptops don't enjoy the laptop-gaming experience and would have a desktop if money or space constraints allowed.

Quote

Any price that makes sense unless you use the GPU for some business related, income generating, activity.   Mining or other. 

What about the years and years where you could get a very competent gaming desktop for under $1000? I know people who drop thousands of dollars on snowmobile parts. Are you going to go to them and tell them to ski instead?
 

Quote

In short... I am thinking.  We as a community should use our influence to boycott NVidia and AMD GPU's from now on.  Stop buying them.  Stop trying to buy them.  Just get used to games you can play on an APU or IGP or console.    At least until they really truly show that they are trying to make cards FOR GAMERS.  Even if that means selling them EXCLUSIVELY IN PERSON. 

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

if you think we, a forum of a few thousand, have any power in a gaming market of hundreds of millions...

Quote

Now I'm going to go offline and try to exercise.  I am late for a class 10 Chicago miles away. 

enjoy your class!

[Vishera]

36 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

that is what games should be designed to. 

I am a game developer myself,It's easier to develop games for faster hardware,rather than tweaking it for slower ones.

Most of us game developers don't even bother tweaking games for Intel iGPUs.

36 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

However, the idea that RT and Tensor cores and So many Stream processors NVENC or its' AMD equivalent CUDA or Open CL are at all relevant or matter is an illusion.  

That's completely false.

 

Tensor cores:

Tensor core are very efficient with AI workloads,which is used by DLSS.

 

RT cores:

While RTX can run on some GTX cards,it's not a good experience without RT cores,even on the 1080 Ti.

Of course that you can develop a solution that works well without RT cores,in fact it already exists,New Unigine and Cry Engine feature proprietary real time ray tracing technologies that don't use RT cores,

But they are not as good as RTX.

 

NVENC:

The Nvidia encoder is one of the most useful things that Nvidia has in their GPUs!

You can record and stream game sessions with near zero loss of performance,NVENC does all that processing instead of your CPU!

 

CUDA and Open CL:

I am not going to explain those,since those are basics of GPUs and you got it wrong.

 

36 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

Hell... given the installed base of Intel based laptops out there it would be wise for most game studios to call "medium" whatever an intel IGPU can do.    

As i said before,most developers completely ignore Intel iGPUs.

[Arika]

You said in your main post "change my mind", normally this means you're open to listening to other opinions. But I don't think you want to have your mind changed, I don't think I've seen a response acknowledging another opinion that wasn't just "no, but..." 

 

If looking at the current state of things made you think that the rational alternative is to drop all GPU gaming and return to pixel and ps1 style games is an actual solution, then I don't think we can change your mind, because that is one hell of a weird leap to take. 

 

With that said, I would love to see a laptop with the SoC from the Series X

[Elisis]

1 minute ago, Arika S said:

normally this means you're open to listening to other opinions

I mean, based on the pioneer of the phrase being like he is, that may not necessarily be true

[BuckGup]

1 hour ago, Uttamattamakin said:

Here are the facts: 

• Most PC users of any kind just have one laptop. 
• That laptop has a smallish screen which is used at arms length.  Where it is a mathematical fact that 4k resolution will make no discernible difference. 
• Those PC's all use either a Ryzen APU or intel graphics or have a discrete but mobile GPU which performs just a little better than an APU. 
• Most of the rest buy prebuilt from major names. 

The above are statements of fact.   Below here is an opinion. 

Change my mind. How am I wrong given what we have just witnessed today?  

I would heavily consider looking at your "facts". They all look like generalized statements you made from personal observation. 

[Blademaster91]

55 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

I have an old GTX 1080.   It was the ONLY one on the shelf when I lucked into it.  The ONLY one in the store when I lucked into it.   I have been playing GTA V 4k 30+/- FPS no issues on a large monitor.  I also built a computer 

 

Implied in my argument is that ... we are not the average users in this forum.   Think of most of the people you know.  ALL of them have a cell phone.  Likely if they game they use that.  Why not just forget the PC as a game platform at all if the components needed to make it competitive can't be had at any price that makes sense .... 

 

Any price that makes sense unless you use the GPU for some business related, income generating, activity.   Mining or other.

We aren't the average users, most people are going to game on their phone, or on a console, but most people here likely enjoy gaming on a PC with a keyboard and mouse than on a phone.

I agree the cost of a GPU is out of range of most people, hopefully prices come down as supply improves.

56 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

In short... I am thinking.  We as a community should use our influence to boycott NVidia and AMD GPU's from now on. 

That won't happen because people are still going to buy GPUs and we don't have any other alternative to Nvidia or AMD. Although I'm thinking of getting an AMD card when availability improves because the RTX 30 series has been a mess, and Nvidia seems to care more about miners that will only buy cards while mining is profitable, the people using a gpu for games, rendering, or work will more likely buy either an Nvidia or AMD GPU.

44 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

While I don't agree to this extreme level

 

Getting used to lower end is something that SOME of us in the community should really practice, especially when getting a higher end GPU for gaming nowadays is not worth (imo) the asking price.

Instead of bitching about the availability and scalpers.

Well getting used to lower end has been kinda forced upon the consumer since the RTX 20 series, only the scalpers and miners can afford the higher end GPUs, because of the scalpers and people paying the increased prices Nvidia keeps raising the prices. The RTX 3060 is selling for $500, while the GTX 1060 launched at $299.

[tikker]

  

1 hour ago, Uttamattamakin said:

It's not a matter of eyesight.  I wear glasses that correct my vision to better than 20/10.

20/10 vision on its own is already incredibly rare and exceptional vision that can hardly be bested, and you claim to have better? Not denying the possibility, but this is a bold claim to make.

1 hour ago, Uttamattamakin said:

That laptop has a smallish screen which is used at arms length.  Where it is a mathematical fact that 4k resolution will make no discernible difference.  (Fundamental physics of how optical systems work. Source education.  Citation https://www.macworld.co.uk/feature/retina-display-3466732/  Computer screens exceeded our ability to discern the dots on them at distance a long time ago. ) 

The eye has an angular resolution of about 1 arcminute. I use my laptop between 30-60 cm away from my face typically, which means I can (in an ideal case) distinguish about 87-174 micrometre structures. A 13" screen at 1920x1080 resolution has a pixel size of 149 micrometre. A 3840x2160p screen at 15" has 86 micron pixels, so no, it is in fact not mathematically impossible to still be able to distinguish individual pixels on laptop screens, but it is rather difficult.

 

Higher resolutions have the added benefit of more screen real estate, as others have pointed out.

2 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

Change my mind. How am I wrong given what we have just witnessed today?

You are wrong in the sense of presenting your opinion as a fact. Other than that, I think it's perfectly fine what you say, but it is not a general statement you can make. If you are content with gaming on low settings 30 FPS, then more power to you. An APU could be applicable for that. I, however, don't want an APU. My 1080 Ti still serves me well, so I'm lucky in that regard, but I like to be able to have some eyecandy and/or high framerate, so I like my dedicated GPU. Unfortunately I can't justify laying down 1500 for a 3080, so I'll have to just suck it up. In the current state of the market that means one of two things:

1. You want a new GPU; you'll have pay the price to be one of the lucky few to own one
2. You don't really want one or can't justify the price; you'll have to be happy with what you've got or accept your losses and buy a lower tier card

1 hour ago, Uttamattamakin said:

In short... I am thinking.  We as a community should use our influence to boycott NVidia and AMD GPU's from now on.  Stop buying them.  Stop trying to buy them.  Just get used to games you can play on an APU or IGP or console.    At least until they really truly show that they are trying to make cards FOR GAMERS.  Even if that means selling them EXCLUSIVELY IN PERSON. 

And here the true colours shine through once again. What happened to

2 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

They aren't for you anymore and you do not need them.

This is just another of those "I am upset because I can't get a new GPU for cheap" threads where the respective OP is just trying to calm themselves or justify their own anger by trying to start a witch hunt for Nvidia or AMD. Speaking in general, calm your tits people and realise

1. the world and markets are completely screwed due to a variety of reasons and that everything is impacted.
2. you, or any "gamer", does not by any stretch of the imagination have any more right to a GPU than anyone else.

Please just take a second to realise the state the world is in. All you witch hunters can't seriously believe that Nvidia, AMD etc. in 2020 just went like "you know what, let's just screw over the entire community and make them hate us by messing with GPU supply".

[Moonzy]

5 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

Well getting used to lower end has been kinda forced upon the consumer since the RTX 20 series, only the scalpers and miners can afford the higher end GPUs, because of the scalpers and people paying the increased prices Nvidia keeps raising the prices. The RTX 3060 is selling for $500, while the GTX 1060 launched at $299.

Scalpers could only scalp because of the perfect storm that were having right now, with covid causing manufacturing constraints and miners buying up any supply that trickles out, so I don't think it'll be a huge issue (it'll still be a thing) after covid and mining craze ends

 

Miners, if the past is anything to go by and repeats itself, will blow by, and when it does, GPU would be plenty on the market at prices that people would pay them for gaming.

 

Right now it truly is a bad time to buy a new rig purely for gaming, especially if you're aiming for anything that's remotely recent, down to 10 series GPU