NVIDIA pretends to care about gamers.

[atxcyclist]

1 minute ago, Moonzy said:

Meanwhile you own a 1060, which is what a lot of people still uses and are happy using it

 

I myself still game on a 970 as I've mentioned, despite having all these GPU that I can hand pick from

 

Not everyone needs the latest and greatest GPU to play games

 

My friend played cyberpunk on his 1050ti at 20fps, I even offered him a rig to borrow (with a 3070 in it) for a week to enjoy the game fully, he refused and said he's fine with playing it at those conditions.

Except this is my sole source of entertainment right now, so I actually do want something closer to the latest and greatest to play newer games, because I've been stuck in my house for almost a year without anything else to do. If someone wants an awful 20fps experience then that's their deal, I don't. I've been spending money building gaming PCs since 1997, I'm not interested in a bad experience.

 

I could say the same for miners, they could be using older RX 400 series cards that no one really would care about, but they want new stuff because it performs better.

[Moonzy]

1 minute ago, atxcyclist said:

I've been spending money building gaming PCs since 1997, I'm not interested in a bad experience.

then pay up, a 3090 is made for people like you i reckon

 

2 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

Except this is my sole source of entertainment right now

and is that anyone else's fault or?

 

3 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

I could say the same for miners, they could be using older RX 400 series cards that no one really would care about, but they want new stuff because it performs better.

thing is, miners are probably wiping out everything up to pascal, so you're technically right

they're using rx400 series, as well as everything newer

[Loki0111]

2 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

then pay up, a 3090 is made for people like you i reckon

 

and is that anyone else's fault or?

 

thing is, miners are probably wiping out everything up to pascal, so you're technically right

they're using rx400 series, as well as everything newer

To be fair here unless you are buying off a scalper (which I highly discourage) it is almost impossible to buy a RTX 3090 or a 6900XT retail let alone for anywhere near MSRP. They sell out on the sites within seconds usually.

[Moonzy]

2 minutes ago, Loki0111 said:

To be fair here unless you are buying off a scalper (which I highly discourage) it is almost impossible to buy a RTX 3090 or a 6900XT retail let alone for anywhere near MSRP.

I managed to do it 11 times, buying GPU from retailers

 

at a superb marked up pricing of course, $1000-1200 for a 3070, and i got 7 of them

[Loki0111]

3 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

I managed to do it 11 times, buying GPU from retailers

 

at a superb marked up pricing of course, $1000 for a 3070, and i got 7 of them

When you are paying amounts closing in on 200% MSRP you are into scalper pricing territory. Yes, if you are willing to basically pay anything you can get a card.

 

I personally will never buy a card from a scalper. Regardless if its GPU's, food or whatever the hell else they are the bottom feeding scum of humanity as far as I'm concerned and they'll never get a dollar from me.

[Nystemy]

3 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

Kudos to you for sticking that out, but I had to ditch my 750 Ti in 2016 because the performance was sub-par for games like Fallout 4. I don't believe a 750 Ti is very different than a 660 from a performance standpoint.

 

Even if 900 series cards were affordable, people would have an option for DX12/Vulcan-capable cards with decent amounts of VRAM and GPU performance. I'm seeing plenty of 980s for $250+ on eBay, which is absurd considering they are now 4 generations old and were not even the highest-tier.

The 700 series were about as impressive compared to the 600 series, as the 20 series is compared to the 10. (it is a bit of an improvement, but not much...)
I have been looking a bit in the 900 series for an upgrade myself. Like a 950Ti, but everything with a "Ti" on the end is more expensive than it should be, regardless of how many generations old said card is.
And the ones ending with 80 are usually rarely dropping bellow 50% of the price when they were brand new. (unless it is caked with dust, or have been driven over by a car...)
The 1650(non-TI) were however selling for next to nix. Mainly due to the fact that everyone on the internet calling owners of that card for idiots for just owning it.... But for having roughly 670-680 performance, it is a decent upgrade in my case. (Mainly due to its much lower power consumption. electricity isn't free.)

I personally follow the idea that a second hand card should practically always be less than 80% the price of a new card with the same theoretical performance. And then another price drop for every year or so on top of that. Ie, I wouldn't even ask 50 bucks for selling one of my GTX660 cards. (With exception for more "collectors item's", but "x80" cards aren't collector ones, nor are "Ti" ones either, since there is literally tens of thousands of them from each brand.)
 

2 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

I could say the same for miners, they could be using older RX 400 series cards that no one really would care about, but they want new stuff because it performs better.

Miners though cares about 1 thing, and that is power efficiency.
And ASIC mining is much more power efficient, but a lot of such devices are creating even more eWaste than what even "mining GPUs" creates, since ASIC mining chips literally can't do anything else than mine crypto... And sometimes only 1 specific type of crypto currency as well. (ASIC mining is also a bit expensive on the upfront side, and they too are a bit in a shortage due to supply issues. That nVidia's GPUs can keep up with the ASIC miners is honestly impressive. But also shows how the ASIC miners aren't really having all that good designs either, and they at times are stuck to using older manufacturing nodes in most cases as well.)

Having a few crypto miners in my "friend circle", I have heard that older cards aren't actually profitable, even the 900 series is largely useless for mining since electricity costs outweigh the income from mining in a lot of cases.

[Moonzy]

1 minute ago, Loki0111 said:

scalper pricing

i prefer to call it street value than scalper pricing, scalpers, to me are people who are trying to game the free market system to make a profit and i dont blame them

but i dont support them either

 

but yes im willing to pay $1000-1200 for a 3070 right now

[Loki0111]

6 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

i prefer to call it street value than scalper pricing, scalpers, to me are people who are trying to game the free market system to make a profit and i dont blame them

but i dont support them either

 

but yes im willing to pay $1000-1200 for a 3070 right now

If you are buying something for a fixed MSRP amount and marking it up 200% or more with no value added because there are extreme supply constraints and you know you can exploit the situation due to demand then however you dress that up its scalping.

 

This is not new. During WW2 and most recent disasters people often try to scalp or exploit people for food, clean water and fuel. A mother will pay whatever she has to in order to get food for her children to survive and the individuals who exploited those situations knew that. Its one of the reasons government have stepped in during those kinds of situations to establish rationing and pricing controls.

 

While GPU's are not food or fuel the same principal and tactics are being applied by some individuals and businesses. In that context I will never financially support this kind of thing.

[Moonzy]

2 minutes ago, Loki0111 said:

This is not new. During WW2 and most recent disasters people often try to scalp or exploit people for food, clean water and fuel. A mother will pay whatever she has to in order to get food for her children to survive and the individuals who exploited those situations knew that. Its one of the reasons government have stepped in during those kinds of situations to establish rationing and pricing controls.

for essential goods, i agree that intervention should be done so people gets access to essentials

 

but gaming gpu is different... you dont die without it

 

and if you're operating a business, you can justify the cost of the GPU easily, or use cheaper alternatives

[Luscious]

This is going to be a long rant. I'm gonna take a different approach on this as someone who does F@H as well as gaming. I got involved with the project maybe 5-6 years ago after following it for over a decade earlier and have a rig running 24/7 with four GPU's.

 

The cards I have are water-cooled 980Ti's. These were priced at $800/each back when I bought them with the air-cooled variants $200-300 less. So when most users dropped $500-600 on a top-of-the-line GPU for their gaming rig I was spending $3200 - that's quite a sizeable investment.

 

Of course the other reason I justified my purchase was 4-way SLI (still a thing at the time) and 4K performance. Driver choice was critical here, but the version I stuck with showed almost linear performance scaling across 1-2-3-4 cards in more than one game. So the argument for having multiple GPU's in a box had more than one use case.

 

I should mention that I don't do and have never done mining. All my non-gaming GPU activity goes towards F@H. I should also mention as well that electricity/heating for me is paid for and does not factor into anything.

 

Here's were things began to get "sour" for me. I can remember almost to the day when the same water-cooled 1080TI variant of the card I had was selling for the same $800... only to spike in price to $1600 just a few months later. That's what the 2018 crypto boom/bust achieved.

 

Come the 2000 series and the prices for the 2080TI stayed at the $1600 price point. Sure, I could have bought four but my outlay would have been over $6000 - a crazy amount to spend on GPU's. Worse, the Titan V that came out after had a sticker price of $2500... each!!!

 

The Titan V wasn't a mining or folding card - yet it could do both alongside gaming. The irony is that for a gaming card it was absurdly overpriced, meaning if you bought one, you absolutely raped the thing for whatever it could do.

 

Now look at the price of a water-cooled 3090 - $1730 for EVGA's XC3 Ultra Hydro copper card. Four of them would set me back almost $7000... and yet I cannot even purchase ONE!!! It has been out of stock since it's announcement and since it's launch and is still out of stock to this day. It is, by the definition of the word, a paper product.

 

How could a "mining card" possibly help me??? Well I could have just a single 3090 installed for gaming/4K and have three dedicated mining cards doing F@H. That would leave three 3090's on the table for others to enjoy. Similarly if I had a dedicated 4U box set up for F@H I could slap mining cards in those, since that's all they would do, rather than hog a bunch of "gaming" cards.

 

If nVidia is trying to help the situation, they are THREE YEARS TOO LATE. If something like this would have been done in 2018 we could have seen three important things happen: (1) GPU prices remain at more acceptable prices, (2) a viable new alternative for those passionate about F@H/mining, and (3) more stock left available for gamers. What you see today is what happens when big corporations sit on their asses and let problems like this snowball until they become next to impossible to remedy.

 

Now I really am concerned how I will upgrade my system if one (or more) of my cards bites the dust, since they are getting close to the end of their lifetime. I cannot get a new card, there;s no way I'll find four identical used ones, and who's to say the 3000 series successor won't suffer a similar fate. AMD and nVidia are in a world of hurt if today's shortages continue.

[atxcyclist]

44 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

then pay up, a 3090 is made for people like you i reckon

 

and is that anyone else's fault or?

 

thing is, miners are probably wiping out everything up to pascal, so you're technically right

they're using rx400 series, as well as everything newer

I'm not paying $2000 for a GPU. My target is a 3060 ti or a 3070, and I'd pay actual retail for one but not 200% or 300% of MSRP.

 

Have you heard of covid? We're in lockdown here. So I have no other options but to find entertainment in my home, and that would be playing games except nothing new runs well on a 1060, so I'm not buying the games until I upgrade. And to somewhat add to my first point, I'm not going to hang out at a brick and mortar retailer to buy a card either because of the covid risk.

[Moonzy]

3 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

I'm not paying $2000 for a GPU. My target is a 3060 ti or a 3070, and I'd pay actual retail for one but not 200% or 300% of MSRP.

then wait for the price to come down

 

3 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

Have you heard of covid?

exactly, have YOU heard of covid and the impact it had on the manufacturing side?

 

stop pretending it only affects you

plenty of people that arent gamers get by just fine

[atxcyclist]

6 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

then wait for the price to come down

 

exactly, have YOU heard of covid and the impact it had on the manufacturing side?

Yeah, and whose fault is it that all the cards have been bought up? Not me.

 

You always have some quip about it, but people like you buying multiple cards (11 in your case) are exactly the reason there are none. You are literally the problem.

[Moonzy]

10 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

You always have some quip about it, but people like you buying multiple cards is exactly the reason there are none. You are literally the problem.

you said there are no cards, i said there are, just overpriced

you said you arent willing to pay those prices, i suggested you wait for it to come down

 

you want your cake and eat it too? good luck

 

you're there trying to scream about your mental health during covid being an issue while not willing to pay $1000 to solve it, shows how little of a problem it actually is, or how little you value your mental health

 

[edit] I could give less fucks about your mental health if im being brutally honest [/edit]

 

blame me all you want, but you ain't getting your gpu at MSRP anytime soon, while im happily paying a premium to enjoy them the way i want to

[atxcyclist]

15 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

you said there are no cards, i said there are, just overpriced

you said you arent willing to pay those prices, i suggested you wait for it to come down

 

you want your cake and eat it too? good luck

 

while you're there trying to scream about your mental health during covid being an issue while not willing to pay $1000 to solve it, shows how little of a problem it actually is, or how little you value your mental health

 

blame me all you want, but you ain't getting your gpu at MSRP anytime soon, while im happily paying a premium to enjoy them the way i want to

 

 

It's not about mental health, I'm pointing out the glaring hypocrisy of a bunch of selfish people buying up all the cards for inflated prices, justifying the scalper actions that screw people over, and then getting on the internet and telling other people that they should wait until the price comes down. As if many of us haven't been waiting and trying to buy for months.

 

You're creating the price hike and the problems with card availability, so yes I will blame you. Every single person looking for a card has been harmed by the actions of people like you, so don't talk about how great you are for paying scalper prices on almost a dozen cards.

 

 

[Blademaster91]

22 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

I'm not paying $2000 for a GPU. My target is a 3060 ti or a 3070, and I'd pay actual retail for one but not 200% or 300% of MSRP.

 

Have you heard of covid? We're in lockdown here. So I have no other options but to find entertainment in my home, and that would be playing games except nothing new runs well on a 1060, so I'm not buying the games until I upgrade. And to somewhat add to my first point, I'm not going to hang out at a brick and mortar retailer to buy a card either because of the covid risk.

It seems like miners don't realize the normal consumer doesn't want to pay $2000 for a single graphics card, or don't have the means to spend as much as what a whole system cost when prices were normal.

I don't want to pay $1000 for a 3060Ti, and it doesn't really seem worth it to mine with a single card after power cost, and crypto could crash any time. But i'm not even mad miners are buying up all the GPUs, what annoys me is the miners buying up to the point its ruining the market and I wouldn't be surprised the next series of cards cost even more because people are willing to pay the scalper prices.

[Moonzy]

1 minute ago, atxcyclist said:

I'm pointing out the glaring hypocrisy of a bunch of selfish people buying up all the cards for inflated prices, justifying the scalper actions that screw people over, and then getting on the internet and telling other people that they should wait until the price comes down. As if many of us haven't been waiting and trying to buy for months.

yeap, keep waiting, it'll come down eventually

i did mention some ways to justify the cost but you refuse to accept it, which is fair

 

justifying one's action doesn't mean supporting them

understanding where they came from doesnt mean supporting them.

 

2 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

You're creating the price hike and the problems with supply, so yes I will blame you. Every single person looking for a card has been harmed by the actions of people like you, so don't talk about how great you are for paying scalper prices on almost a dozen cards.

paying scalper price isnt great, but given the circumstances, I'm willing to pay it to get my stuff done

i do what i have to do

 

2 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

It's not about mental health

25 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

Have you heard of covid? We're in lockdown here. So I have no other options but to find entertainment in my home, and that would be playing games except nothing new runs well on a 1060, so I'm not buying the games until I upgrade.

1 hour ago, atxcyclist said:

Except this is my sole source of entertainment right now, so I actually do want something closer to the latest and greatest to play newer games, because I've been stuck in my house for almost a year without anything else to do

then stop it with the sob story and trying to get people to pity you

because it's really none of my concern and i feel nothing for you in this regard, nor am i obligated to

[atxcyclist]

Just now, Blademaster91 said:

It seems like miners don't realize the normal consumer doesn't want to pay $2000 for a single graphics card, or don't have the means to spend as much as what a whole system cost when prices were normal.

I don't want to pay $1000 for a 3060Ti, and it doesn't really seem worth it to mine with a single card after power cost, and crypto could crash any time. But i'm not even mad miners are buying up all the GPUs, what annoys me is the miners buying up to the point its ruining the market and I wouldn't be surprised the next series of cards cost even more because people are willing to pay the scalper prices.

They don't give a damn. That guy is acting like some noble knight because he's willing to do his part to legitimize the actions of scalpers by overpaying. 

[SteelSkin667]

34 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

I'm not paying $2000 for a GPU. My target is a 3060 ti or a 3070, and I'd pay actual retail for one but not 200% or 300% of MSRP.

 

Have you heard of covid? We're in lockdown here. So I have no other options but to find entertainment in my home, and that would be playing games except nothing new runs well on a 1060, so I'm not buying the games until I upgrade. And to somewhat add to my first point, I'm not going to hang out at a brick and mortar retailer to buy a card either because of the covid risk.

I'm as frustrated as you about the current pricing, and I really think no one should give in to the current scalper prices as it only encourages them, but the solution to me is definitely to wait it out. I was planning on an upgrade, but scalpers can FOAD so I'll just wait as long as it'll take.

However, when you say that "t nothing new runs well on a 1060" that is blatantly false, it is still perfectly fine and will run everything decently well. You can and should wait it out with the rest of us.

[Moonzy]

23 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

it doesn't really seem worth it to mine with a single card after power cost

a 3060ti earns about 8 USD a day, so $240 a month

3060ti = 120W for mining ETH, rest of the system i assume it's 100W, so 220W, or 300W if you factor in efficiency with plenty plenty of headroom

assume you pay $1 per kWh, which is bonkers, the US avg is more like 0.1$, but let's assume

 

300W for a month = 300*24*30 = 216000Wh = 216kWh = $216 in electricity a month

 

even if i used stupid electricity pricing and way way too much headroom for your rig, you still come out +$24 a month, so idk what you're on about

if you did it on a more realistic level with proper electricity fees, it'll probably be more like this

 0.1kWh, full rig is about 200W from the wall, which is more realistic ((120+50)/0.90)

edit: 264 = raw income, 14 is electric fee, 249 is profit after subtracting electric fee

[atxcyclist]

1 minute ago, Moonzy said:

yeap, keep waiting, it'll come down eventually

i did mention some ways to justify the cost but you refuse to accept it, which is fair

 

justifying one's action doesn't mean supporting them

understanding where they came from doesnt mean supporting them.

 

paying scalper price isnt great, but given the circumstances, I'm willing to pay it to get my stuff done

i do what i have to do

 

then stop it with the sob story and trying to get people to pity you

because it's really none of my concern and i feel nothing for you in this regard, nor am i obligated to

Burning electricity and removing access to my desktop I use isn't a solution, I told you that days ago and it's still true.

 

If you take part in something once, OK. If you've paid scalpers 11 times to buy graphics cards then you are supporting their actions, there's no argument you can make to the contrary.

 

So why even respond then? If getting into this conversation is none of your concern then go do something else.

[Moonzy]

21 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

removing access to my desktop I use isn't a solution, I told you that days ago and it's still true.

i replied to you in that regard, which i dont think you bothered replying to

you can use your desktop while you're mining

i've been mining and typing these responses all these while, i've been mining while watching youtube, i've been mining while playing minecraft (which isnt affected by it)

 

i pause my mining when i do stuff that can be affected by it, the downtime isnt enough to make it non-profitable or not a viable option, as i've explained in my previous reply

give it a read, or maybe you did but didn't have a good reply, because you refuse to accept the truth and just wanna cover your eyes and say "bla bla mining is evil, crypto bad"

 

21 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

If you take part in something once, OK. If you've paid scalpers 11 times to buy graphics cards then you are supporting their actions, there's no argument you can make to the contrary.

i specifically said i bought them from retailers, it's not my fault that even retailers charge a stupid markup

they're a business and business gotta do what a business does

im supporting higher gpu price levels? yes. Supporting scalpers? no

 

21 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

So why even respond then? If getting into this conversation is none of your concern then go do something else.

i enjoy watching you complain, it's entertaintment to me

edit: who said you cant have entertainment other than games during covid?  

[atxcyclist]

1 minute ago, SteelSkin667 said:

I'm as frustrated as you about the current pricing, and I really think no one should give in to the current scalper prices as it only encourages them, but the solution to me is definitely to wait it out. I was planning on an upgrade, but scalpers can FOAD so I'll just wait as long as it'll take.

However, when you say that "t nothing new runs well on a 1060" that is blatantly false, it is still perfectly fine and will run everything decently well. You can and should wait it out with the rest of us.

I have a backorder in and it's at MSRP, but it could be a long time.

 

It will run newer stuff with details turned down or the expectation of low framerates. It being downgraded from recommended to minimum in Cyberpunk was the last straw for me though, it's no longer a relevant 1080P card. 30 FPS on medium isn't an experience I'm interested in for a new game.

[Pc6777]

if you really wanted to you could play on older cards like 660/750 ti. you would have to lower to 720p and play at 30 fps, but technically its still playable with even most modern games like ac odyssey will run on a 660 level card or even a 1030 gddr5 at absolute lowest settings 720p,. I have some cheap cards like that laying around so I can still run games if my good card breaks because Skylake integrated  graphics suck. 

[D13H4RD]

5 hours ago, atxcyclist said:

You always have some quip about it, but people like you buying multiple cards (11 in your case) are exactly the reason there are none. You are literally the problem.

So it's just the miners that's causing this whole mess, eh? We're just going to ignore;

• Heightened demand overall that's started since 2020 due to pandemic-induced stay-at-home orders
• A severe shortage of raw materials that is affecting the production of the actual card such as VRAM dies.
• Manufacturing scaling issues at chip foundries that's reducing output considerably
• Freight companies prioritizing vaccine and PPE distribution rather than a graphics card
• Limited wafer allocation due to several products being made on the same node and companies prioritizing higher-margin products like data-center chips.

I'm not at all saying miners aren't contributing because they very much are, in a significant manner. But it's tone-deaf to say they are the literal problem when there are many, many, many contributing factors to why the GPU market right now is a right mess. Especially the first one, as it seems people have forgotten the time where it was a right impossibility to find a Turing GPU that also isn't jacked up in price due to shortages. This was before the late-2020 mining boom, by the way.

 

And it still floors me to see you claim a GTX 1060 is unable to play a modern game well...