NVIDIA pretends to care about gamers.

[Emily Young]

Nvidia thinks they can pull a fast one on gamers looking to grab an RTX 3060, but we know you're smarter than that - Let's dig deeper and see if we can figure out why they're launching cryptocurrency mining cards...

 

 

[MorbidAngel]

Well I was looking to grab any 30x card but they're all out of stock so yeah

[TempestCatto]

Cards are in stock all over places like Ebay.

 

Spoiler

You just have to sell a kidney first.

 

[Red :)]

In other news, water is wet and sky is blue.

[Wh0_Am_1]

My take on Nvidia's reputation:

 

[riba2233]

I have already said no to nvidia twice, first after the GPP, then after that HUB incident, and this just seems like something expected at this moment.

[SFFDesigns]

No gaming company truly cares about gamers. Not Nvidia, not AMD, not Intel, none of them.

 

There are great people at all of them and they do usually make good products, but the company is there to make money. 

[riba2233]

1 minute ago, Hymenopus_Coronatus said:

No gaming company truly cares about gamers. Not Nvidia, not AMD, not Intel, none of them.

 

There are great people at all of them and they do usually make good products, but the company is there to make money. 

Maybe, but NV can be especially anti-consumer. Not everything is relative.

[porina]

Random thoughts:

 

Aww, so you're saying Jensen wont personally invite me to admire his spatula collection? As much as a company cares about the numbers on the balance sheet, those numbers still have to come from customers at some point. Gaming is not a small part of nvidia revenue, and if PC gaming in general is depressed from lack of GPUs, that'll hurt them in the longer term. Higher end gaming will then move to consoles where only AMD can profit. Getting GPU supply to gamers will help them in the longer run too.

 

On the new crypto cards, based on the spec 3 of the 4 are likely Turing, not Ampere. Turing being built on a different (older) process might not be in the same level of constraint. I don't know, ask TSMC how their 12nm capacity is these days. It's not TSMC 7nm, it is not Samsung 8nm. It is better marketing if the current gen Ampere can get to gamers, whereas miners will simply look at the numbers and buy where it makes sense, regardless of the tech.

 

On recycling, e-waste is said to contain orders of magnitude more gold per weight than gold ore. If it is profitable to extract raw gold, there's a good chance they can do it from e-waste. Processing costs might not be the same between them, but a local scrap metal processor will collect metal and e-waste for free regardless of the condition - they're only after the bulk material and not looking to reuse. They certainly wouldn't be doing that if they can't make money out of it. Might not apply everywhere in the world.

 

The solution proposed... that doesn't help at all. It is solving a totally unrelated different problem. nvidia's proposal might have some impact today. People who are unable to build a rig right now wont care that there might be cheaper used cards in a year.

 

There are other non-crypto compute uses that could re-use mining cards should they no longer be used as such. The use case might not be as big as gaming, but it is non-zero too. Look at the folding forum for example. At the right price, I'd certainly consider ex-mining cards with no display output for my compute farm.

[riba2233]

Also let's not forget what happened to NV after the last crypto crash, they are just trying to cover their ass this time.

[GreatnessRD]

Live look-in at Jensen 

 

[SteelSkin667]

The CMP release makes way too much business sense for Nvidia to not have done it. At first I didn't take issue with it whatsoever, especially since it makes so much business sense when it comes to optimizing yields during a silicon shortage, but I didn't think of the e-waste problem. That is very unfortunate.

 

The driver-level mining restriction on the other hand I am not a fan of, and I didn't like it when they announced it either. Not only does it contribute to the e-waste problem, but I am a bit concerned that some various compute tasks might be flagged as mining, and the performance restriction kicks in. GPUs aren't only for gaming, and blockchain can be used outside of crypto mining.

 

When crypto inevitably crashes again, I might grab some of those discarded CMPs to run folding@home - a much better use of precious energy than advancing crypto-capitalism. Much like the P106s, they should become incredibly cheap by the point miners get rid of them.

[riba2233]

1 minute ago, SteelSkin667 said:

The CMP release makes way too much business sense for Nvidia to not have done it. At first I didn't take issue with it whatsoever, especially since it makes so much business sense when it comes to optimizing yields during a silicon shortage, but I didn't think of the e-waste problem. That is very unfortunate.

 

The driver-level mining restriction on the other hand I am not a fan of, and I didn't like it when they announce it either. Not only does it contribute to the e-waste problem, but I am a bit concerned that some various compute tasks might be flagged as mining, and the performance restriction kicks in. GPUs aren't only for gaming, and blockchain can be used outside of crypto mining.

 

When crypto inevitably crashes again, I might grab some of those discarded CMPs to run folding@home - a much better use of precious energy than advancing crypto-capitalism. Muck like the P106s, they should become incredibly cheap by the point miners get rid of them.

 

In reality, big miners will write their own drivers and they will mine with rtx3060 (which they probably won't share), while gamers won't be able to, which is lose-lose situation in the end.

[SteelSkin667]

Just now, riba2233 said:

 

In reality, big miners will write their own drivers and they will mine with rtx3060 (which they probably won't share), while gamers won't be able to, which is lose-lose situation in the end.

Yeah, even though Nvidia say it's 'unhackable', it will be hacked eventually. Those hacked drivers and BIOS might get shared, but they probably won't get updated, meaning no game optimizations.

[twstdude0to1]

There are way too many sweeping statements here that tries to convince us that what NVIDIA is doing will not help gamers at all. Where's your proof that the GP-106 didn't help offset demand? Where's your proof that most miners will gobble up the 3060 cards? They could just ignore the NVIDIA GeForce cards in order to save themselves the hassle of trying to hack them. A lot of what was said here was speculative and pessimistic.

 

Now, I do agree that NVIDIA is a company and like all companies prioritizes profit. And I agree that by segregating the cards they mean to make more money in the long run. But that doesn't mean that they don't care at all. A companies PR and image is also important as it can affect their profit in the long run.

 

You have valid points about the e-waste problem but perhaps some more constructive conversation may help here. If we really wanted to hold NVIDIA's feet to the fire, we could ask them to manufacture mining cards that could later be unlocked to allow video output via flashing at a specified date (by release by NVIDIA). I know this is a long shot, bu if they wanted to fight the e-waste accusations, it's a good middle ground. Now I know, most people are going to say, "Someone's going to figure out how to hack it before NVIDIA releases the flash tool". To me, that's fine, as miners would be affected more so than gamers.

 

Time will tell how this solution works or doesn't for NVIDIA.

[poochyena]

tl;dw version: Buy Nvidia shares

[porina]

2 minutes ago, twstdude0to1 said:

we could ask them to manufacture mining cards that could later be unlocked to allow video output via flashing at a specified date (by release by NVIDIA).

The problem is they don't have any method to output video physically. It is a waste of money to fit on a video output connector and associated circuitry if the intended use case doesn't have any need for that.

 

I suppose an Optimus style arrangement could be a possibility for later though.

[Quackers101]

always has been.

So many features and for so many years they have tried to prevent some sort of development.

Having a lot of locks. If we want to compare Nvidia with AMD, both has their issues in their own ways, but at least they didn't hold back like Nvidia have done for years now? So when it comes to games and gamers, they do some cool *** stuff, but some shady tactics. Kind of like google and epic games, just buying their way or the highway.

[starry]

Alternate title:

Nvidia pats themselves on the back while dumping thousands of pounds of ewaste into landfills and implementing arbitrary software locks on hardware products for reasons solely based on profit.

 

In other words: nvidia does what publically traded companies do.

[APileofRocks]

Did tech culture just begin to care about e-waste? Last time I tuned in, it was all about "UPGRADE UPGRADE UPGRADE" every 6 months.

 

I do agree with the philosophy of Reduce, Reuse, and Recycle and I practice it - but it seems that this kind of criticism comes from one side of the mouth, while careless consumerism comes out the other, least until the issue has gotten bad enough.

 

I know Linus is being genuine, but the pedantic nit-picking of companies for using single-use plastic bags for zip ties isn't going to get much done. People need to vote with their wallet and, - as in Linus' case - their influence. Good video overall, it's just frustrating to see this make headway into the culture and no-one actually act on it.

 

I would 100% agree more people need to actually practice the 3 R's. If done at a large enough scale, we could see this affect e-waste in a positive manner. Idealistic, sure - but that's the way this gets done.

[TheBahrbarian]

2 minutes ago, twstdude0to1 said:

There are way too many sweeping statements here that tries to convince us that what NVIDIA is doing will not help gamers at all. Where's your proof that the GP-106 didn't help offset demand? Where's your proof that most miners will gobble up the 3060 cards? They could just ignore the NVIDIA GeForce cards in order to save themselves the hassle of trying to hack them. A lot of what was said here was speculative and pessimistic.

 

Now, I do agree that NVIDIA is a company and like all companies prioritizes profit. And I agree that by segregating the cards they mean to make more money in the long run. But that doesn't mean that they don't care at all. A companies PR and image is also important as it can affect their profit in the long run.

 

You have valid points about the e-waste problem but perhaps some more constructive conversation may help here. If we really wanted to hold NVIDIA's feet to the fire, we could ask them to manufacture mining cards that could later be unlocked to allow video output via flashing at a specified date (by release by NVIDIA). I know this is a long shot, bu if they wanted to fight the e-waste accusations, it's a good middle ground. Now I know, most people are going to say, "Someone's going to figure out how to hack it before NVIDIA releases the flash tool". To me, that's fine, as miners would be affected more so than gamers.

 

Time will tell how this solution works or doesn't for NVIDIA.

True, Linus didn't necessarily cite any raw numbers to back up his points. But I find it hard to disagree with him there. At the end of the day, miners at the very least will still gobble up the 3060ti (currently the most efficient mining card) and the other 3000 series gpus. That's even if they don't manage to get a working 3060 bios (which I highly doubt they won't. Lets be honest here, no amount of security has ever stopped people before, especially when there is money involved).

 

I have seen some people argue that the new mining cards won't hurt the already suffering stock because it's likely on a different process. This is true, and I thought about it as well. But at the same time, silicon production across many processes is suffering right now. It's not just TSMC 7nm and Samsung 8nm, like Linus said even car manufactures are struggling to get chips (and I don't imagine most cars use the latest process nodes for their chips). I just really don't see this being some kind of miracle, like all of a sudden the thousands of miners will all be fighting over the new chips and us gamers will live in some kind of utopia where it's now raining MSRP priced GPUs. It might make a dent, but frankly there is still sky high demand among gamers alone and I don't see stock getting much better regardless of what happens for a while.

 

And thirdly, regardless of whether or not the actually helps GPU availability, I don't think this is a move gamers should be cheering on. It seems almost hypocritical to me to be cheering on movements like right to repair, data privacy, etc, but then in the same sentence completely agree when Nvidia artificially locks down how you are allowed to use their products? It just seems like a move to cut down on the used market, and prevent GPU's from having multiple uses, forcing consumers to buy more. I just can't help but think this is a dangerous precedent to be ok with, that companies can dictate exactly what you can and cannot do with their product. Especially when so many on this forum have bashed companies like Tesla for making similar decisions. 

 

And this is all on top of the fact that it just seems a little arrogant to me to see fellow gamers acting as some kind of morally superior entity to miners that deserve the GPUs more. Like they have some kind of right to the GPUs first. 

 

I don't know, this just seems like a waste of time that is only gonna further segment the market, and likely create a lot of paperweight GPUs for little to no reason. The TRUE solution to these mining crazes is proof-by-stake crypto, which is already well on it's way. 

[starry]

22 minutes ago, APileofRocks said:

Did tech culture just begin to care about e-waste? Last time I tuned in, it was all about "UPGRADE UPGRADE UPGRADE" every 6 months.

 

I do agree with the philosophy of Reduce, Reuse, and Recycle and I practice it - but it seems that this kind of criticism comes from one side of the mouth, while careless consumerism comes out the other, least until the issue has gotten bad enough.

 

I know Linus is being genuine, but the pedantic nit-picking of companies for using single-use plastic bags for zip ties isn't going to get much done. People need to vote with their wallet and, - as in Linus' case - their influence. Good video overall, it's just frustrating to see this make headway into the culture and no-one actually act on it.

 

I would 100% agree more people need to actually practice the 3 R's. If done at a large enough scale, we could see this affect e-waste in a positive manner. Idealistic, sure - but that's the way this gets done.

Agreed. A lot of the culture in the tech community really bothers me because people froth at the mouth over new upgrades when what they have is already overkill for what they do, but they have cognitive dissonance about how that effects e-waste. An increasing number of influencers have been bringing up ewaste lately, which is definitely a good move, but in the long run I dont think influencers or voting with our wallets is going to do anything, because at the end of the day only a small number of people are going to make purchasing decisions based on that. I think what we really need in our society is to figure out robust regulations on right to repair and business practices that produce e-waste. If AMD were in a more leading position, they likely would have done very similar things, and had similar anti-consumer practices, because at the end of the day, they are a publicly traded corporation. Voting with our wallets and pressure from influencers only does so much when a company's profit numbers tell such a different story.

[APileofRocks]

17 minutes ago, starry said:

Voting with our wallets and pressure from influencers only does so much when a company's profit numbers tell such a different story.

I do agree that right now this is the reality, but have to disagree on gov't regulations being the answer. Regulations come and go, and serve as artificial caps on what a company can do for a time. Main issue with that solution is that people by and large see the regulations as acts of gov't, not themselves, and that disconnect causes people to also disconnect from the consequences of contributing to the problem. These kinds of cultural shifts take generations to occur, but have happened in the past for other large issues, so I don't generally take a pessimistic outlook on the long-term outcome of this.

[TheBahrbarian]

1 minute ago, starry said:

Agreed. A lot of the culture in the tech community really bothers me because people froth at the mouth over new upgrades when what they have is already overkill for what they do, but they have cognitive dissonance about how that effects e-waste. An increasing number of influencers have been bringing up ewaste lately, which is definitely a good move, but in the long run I dont thing influencers or voting with our wallets is going to do anything, because at the end of the day only a small number of people are going to make purchasing decisions based on that. I think what we really need in our society is to figure out robust regulations on right to repair and business practices that produce e-waste. If AMD were in a more leading position, they likely would have done very similar things, and had similar anti-consumer practices, because at the end of the day, they are a publicly traded corporation. Voting with our wallets and pressure from influencers only does so much when a company's profit numbers tell such a different story.

I agree that there is a lot of work to be done in tackling the e-waste issue. And while the upgrade mentality definitely doesn't help, I don't think the desktop PC parts is the worst offender. Yes, there are a lot of people that purchase the newest GPUs right when the come out. But for everyone of those people there are people buying used cards on eBay, I have on several occasions. At the end of the day lots of people just can't afford to buy new. I think the "upgrade" culture is worse in industries such as smartphones, where they have a significantly more limited secondhand lifespan (if one at all).

 

Pushing companies to not use single use plastics is just helping the overall cultural shift, it's still a good thing even if its actual effect is small at the time.

[Dracarris]

IMHO most PC gamers have upgrade cycles of around 5years for all of the major components. The most recent Steam HW supply resulted in 1060 still being the most popular card which was released in 2016. I have no clue where all the fuzz about upgrade upgrade upgrade comes from. This most probably applies to a tiny percentage of gamers only, and even in those cases components will get sold 2nd or even 3rd hand and have a long way ahead before they will ever see a landfill.