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National Highway Traffic Safety Administration Investigating Tesla over Premature Media Control Unit Failures

Michael McAllister
By Michael McAllister
in Tech News
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Source: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2020/11/after-12523-replacements-feds-investigate-tesla-media-control-unit-failures/

 

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) is investigating Tesla after thousands of replacements of its Media Control Unit have plagued the company.  The MCU controls the primary functions of the vehicle, including the touchscreen.  Investigators believe the issue may stem from the use of an 8GB eMMC NAND flash chip, which is written to often. Because of this, the chip reaches its write cycle limit within a few years.  According to Ars Technica:

 

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After the regulator's Office of Defects Investigation received 537 complaints, it asked Tesla if it knew of any more problems with the Nvidia Tegra 3-based system, which is fitted to approximately 158,000 Models S (2012-2018) and X (2016-2018). Tesla did, handing over 2,399 complaints and field reports, 7,777 warranty claims, and 4,746 non-warranty claims.

 

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This isn't the first time that Tesla's choice of consumer-grade electronics, as opposed to automotive-grade, has gotten it in trouble. A separate problem affects the 17-inch touchscreen, which can fail due to high temperature—the kind of temperature experienced inside a parked car during summer, as opposed to an air-conditioned office.

 

But how the infotainment system's code was written is a factor here, too. In 2018, a poster at the Something Awful forums who claimed to be a former Tesla software developer whose NDA had now expired, detailed a litany of similar problems with the company's approach to software, including other problems caused by excessive logging.

Tesla has attempted to address the issue of excessive logging for over a year:

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These have reduced the amount of logs being written, improved error correction and storage strategies, changed the control logic for the turn signals, and even added a default to set the climate control to 71.6˚F (22˚C) in the event of an MCU failure (to prevent windshield fogging). In May of this year, Tesla began producing spares that now use a 64GB Micron eMMC SD card instead of 8GB SD cards from Hynix.

Given that this is a critical consumer safety concern, a recall is probable.  It's disconcerting that an issue like this took so long to address.  Tesla's quality control, or lack thereof, leaves a lot to be desired.

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Sooo even if they switch to better eMMC, my guess is that eventually tesla's will turn into a brick on wheels due to worn out storage?

I mean it's nice that they replace it and made some tweaks to the software to fix it. But it doesn't really feel like a good long-term solid fix.

 

I guess only time will tell?

 

Doesn't really fill me with confidence that there are multi-ton bricks out there driving around with  flash storage that can crap out at any moment...

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I wish any automaker except tesla could make teslas. Tesla's tech company roots are showing, and their unethical business practices are especially prominent. Hopefully batter technology can move away from lithium eventually, but until then (and my bank account grows significantly), I'll be sticking to combustion.

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2 hours ago, RGProductions said:

I wish any automaker except tesla could make teslas. Tesla's tech company roots are showing, and their unethical business practices are especially prominent. Hopefully batter technology can move away from lithium eventually, but until then (and my bank account grows significantly), I'll be sticking to combustion.

You buy Apple products but want to hit on tesla for being anticonsumer and unethical buisness practices? 

 

Anyways. Yes, getting more companies that don't suck as much at these details to make EVs would be great. My understanding is that this problem was being discussed quite a bit over the last few years but NHTSA is pretty much a joke these days. The logging issue isn't something I'd expect on the v3 cars (for a large variety of reasons). 

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The automaker told NHTSA that as of firmware 2020.20, each block of NAND flash should only receive 0.7 read/write cycles a day, which would therefore take between 11 and 12 years before the chip reached its end of life. However, owners who use their cars more often could see this time before failure halved.

Basically, second-hand Teslas are a very risky buy and you really should look at something (anything?) else, unless you have some way of verifying that the car you're buying has had its Flash-storage replaced with new one! Welp, that might cause Teslas' resale-value to drop quite a bit, at least if the buyers are savvy enough to pay attention!

 

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56 minutes ago, WereCatf said:

Basically, second-hand Teslas are a very risky buy and you really should look at something (anything?) else, unless you have some way of verifying that the car you're buying has had its Flash-storage replaced with new one! Welp, that might cause Teslas' resale-value to drop quite a bit, at least if the buyers are savvy enough to pay attention!

 

The Tesla second-hand market is basically non existent. Probably due to low volume, how old they are, and the types of people buying them

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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̌̅̒̾̈́̆͌̌̾̎̽̐̅̏́̈̔͛̀̋̃͊̒̓͗͒̑͒̃͂̌̄̇̑̇͛̆̾͛̒̇̍̒̓̀̈́̄̐͂̍͊͗̎̔͌͛̂̏̉̊̎͗͊͒̂̈̽̊́̔̊̃͑̈́̑̌̋̓̅̔́́͒̄̈́̈̂͐̈̅̈̓͌̓͊́̆͌̉͐̊̉͛̓̏̓̅̈́͂̉̒̇̉̆̀̍̄̇͆͛̏̉̑̃̓͂́͋̃̆̒͋̓͊̄́̓̕̕̕̚͘͘͘̚̕̚͘̕̕͜͜͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͠ͅS̷̢̨̧̢̡̨̢̨̢̨̧̧̨̧͚̱̪͇̱̮̪̮̦̝͖̜͙̘̪̘̟̱͇͎̻̪͚̩͍̠̹̮͚̦̝̤͖̙͔͚̙̺̩̥̻͈̺̦͕͈̹̳̖͓̜͚̜̭͉͇͖̟͔͕̹̯̬͍̱̫̮͓̙͇̗̙̼͚̪͇̦̗̜̼̠͈̩̠͉͉̘̱̯̪̟͕̘͖̝͇̼͕̳̻̜͖̜͇̣̠̹̬̗̝͓̖͚̺̫͛̉̅̐̕͘͜͜͜͜ͅͅͅ.̶̨̢̢̨̢̨̢̛̻͙̜̼̮̝̙̣̘̗̪̜̬̳̫̙̮̣̹̥̲̥͇͈̮̟͉̰̮̪̲̗̳̰̫̙͍̦̘̠̗̥̮̹̤̼̼̩͕͉͕͇͙̯̫̩̦̟̦̹͈͔̱̝͈̤͓̻̟̮̱͖̟̹̝͉̰͊̓̏̇͂̅̀̌͑̿͆̿̿͗̽̌̈́̉̂̀̒̊̿͆̃̄͑͆̃̇͒̀͐̍̅̃̍̈́̃̕͘͜͜͝͠͠z̴̢̢̡̧̢̢̧̢̨̡̨̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̲͚̠̜̮̠̜̞̤̺͈̘͍̻̫͖̣̥̗̙̳͓͙̫̫͖͍͇̬̲̳̭̘̮̤̬̖̼͎̬̯̼̮͔̭̠͎͓̼̖̟͈͓̦̩̦̳̙̮̗̮̩͙͓̮̰̜͎̺̞̝̪͎̯̜͈͇̪̙͎̩͖̭̟͎̲̩͔͓͈͌́̿͐̍̓͗͑̒̈́̎͂̋͂̀͂̑͂͊͆̍͛̄̃͌͗̌́̈̊́́̅͗̉͛͌͋̂̋̇̅̔̇͊͑͆̐̇͊͋̄̈́͆̍̋̏͑̓̈́̏̀͒̂̔̄̅̇̌̀̈́̿̽̋͐̾̆͆͆̈̌̿̈́̎͌̊̓̒͐̾̇̈́̍͛̅͌̽́̏͆̉́̉̓̅́͂͛̄̆͌̈́̇͐̒̿̾͌͊͗̀͑̃̊̓̈̈́̊͒̒̏̿́͑̄̑͋̀̽̀̔̀̎̄͑̌̔́̉̐͛̓̐̅́̒̎̈͆̀̍̾̀͂̄̈́̈́̈́̑̏̈́̐̽̐́̏̂̐̔̓̉̈́͂̕̚̕͘͘̚͘̚̕̚̚̚͘̕̕̕͜͜͝͠͠͝͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͝͝ͅͅͅī̸̧̧̧̡̨̨̢̨̛̛̘͓̼̰̰̮̗̰͚̙̥̣͍̦̺͈̣̻͇̱͔̰͈͓͖͈̻̲̫̪̲͈̜̲̬̖̻̰̦̰͙̤̘̝̦̟͈̭̱̮̠͍̖̲͉̫͔͖͔͈̻̖̝͎̖͕͔̣͈̤̗̱̀̅̃̈́͌̿̏͋̊̇̂̀̀̒̉̄̈́͋͌̽́̈́̓̑̈̀̍͗͜͜͠͠ͅp̴̢̢̧̨̡̡̨̢̨̢̢̢̨̡̛̛͕̩͕̟̫̝͈̖̟̣̲̖̭̙͇̟̗͖͎̹͇̘̰̗̝̹̤̺͉͎̙̝̟͙͚̦͚͖̜̫̰͖̼̤̥̤̹̖͉͚̺̥̮̮̫͖͍̼̰̭̤̲͔̩̯̣͖̻͇̞̳̬͉̣̖̥̣͓̤͔̪̙͎̰̬͚̣̭̞̬͎̼͉͓̮͙͕̗̦̞̥̮̘̻͎̭̼͚͎͈͇̥̗͖̫̮̤̦͙̭͎̝͖̣̰̱̩͎̩͎̘͇̟̠̱̬͈̗͍̦̘̱̰̤̱̘̫̫̮̥͕͉̥̜̯͖̖͍̮̼̲͓̤̮͈̤͓̭̝̟̲̲̳̟̠͉̙̻͕͙̞͔̖͈̱̞͓͔̬̮͎̙̭͎̩̟̖͚̆͐̅͆̿͐̄̓̀̇̂̊̃̂̄̊̀͐̍̌̅͌̆͊̆̓́̄́̃̆͗͊́̓̀͑͐̐̇͐̍́̓̈́̓̑̈̈́̽͂́̑͒͐͋̊͊̇̇̆̑̃̈́̎͛̎̓͊͛̐̾́̀͌̐̈́͛̃̂̈̿̽̇̋̍͒̍͗̈͘̚̚͘̚͘͘͜͜͜͜͜͜͠͠͝͝ͅͅͅ☻♥■∞{╚mYÄÜXτ╕○\╚Θº£¥ΘBM@Q05♠{{↨↨▬§¶‼↕◄►☼1♦  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1 hour ago, RGProductions said:

I wish any automaker except tesla could make teslas. Tesla's tech company roots are showing, and their unethical business practices are especially prominent. Hopefully batter technology can move away from lithium eventually, but until then (and my bank account grows significantly), I'll be sticking to combustion.

If Toyota made Teslas, that would be pretty dope. My Camry is from 2011, so I'm not up to date with their new stuff, but in 2011 they made great cars.

 

I always struggle with Tesla. On one hand, they are absolute evil in the repair-ability department, and are pushing the model of 'own nothing and be happy about it'. Which I hate. They canceled Rich Rebuild's referral code because he was honest about how shitty they are in some aspects, and how great in others, despite Rich clearly bringing them a LOT of business through that code.

 

The flip side is that they are doing more to push battery technology forward than anyone else I know about. They are pushing autonomous driving farther. They are pushing to get all cars to be electric by showing electric doesn't suck. They are working on integrating supercapacitors into electric vehicles to better take advantage of regen braking power and easing the strain on the battery pack (ultimately leading to longer battery pack life).

 

Like, you really have to take the good with the bad with tesla, and that just doesn't work in today's binary society of 'god incarnate' or 'satan incarnate' ideologies. It *is* reasonable to like Tesla, and still wish they were a bit more ethical on the repair-ability/service front. It's also totally fair to look at Tesla and say "no, fuck you, I paid for this car, it's mine. And your software locks are bullshit if I figure out how to beat them." What is also equally ok to say is "but making a company that *sells* a solution to break those locks is flatly illegal". What about a company or entity that posts a guide for free on how to do it? History is full of examples of knowledge trying to be banned, books be burned, and other such stupidity. You cannot stop the spread of knowledge. All you can do is make it just annoying enough that a lazy person will pay you rather than take the free route, but at that point, why not monetize the car some other way? Cmon!

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2 hours ago, WereCatf said:

Basically, second-hand Teslas are a very risky buy and you really should look at something (anything?) else, unless you have some way of verifying that the car you're buying has had its Flash-storage replaced with new one! Welp, that might cause Teslas' resale-value to drop quite a bit, at least if the buyers are savvy enough to pay attention!

 

Second hand EV's won't be a viable industry until right to repair becomes the rule rather than the exception.

 

Change my mind?

Ketchup is better than mustard.

GUI is better than Command Line Interface.

Dubs are better than subs

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Posted

I’m willing to say this doesn’t even sound unethical. That’s just a garbage accusation that preassumes intent. Stupid?  That would be a different and more plausible thing.

 

having non replacable nand doesn’t sound like the act of a tech company at all. Nand wears out.  Mufflers used to be like that.  One just assumed that after a few years a new muffler would need to be put on, and therefor the thing was held on with hose clamps and rubber bungee cords.  Was the use of a non stainless muffler “unethical”?  No.  That’s stupid.  So would making the thing non replaceable though.   If the thing has to use nand that’s fine, but it should be on a mc card or something that was easy to replace.   Here’s a question:  is it?

Not a pro, not even very good.  I’m just old and have time currently.  Assuming I know a lot about computers can be a mistake.

 

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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8 hours ago, WereCatf said:

Basically, second-hand Teslas are a very risky buy and you really should look at something (anything?) else, unless you have some way of verifying that the car you're buying has had its Flash-storage replaced with new one! Welp, that might cause Teslas' resale-value to drop quite a bit, at least if the buyers are savvy enough to pay attention!

 

Depends entirely on part replacement cost. 

Not a pro, not even very good.  I’m just old and have time currently.  Assuming I know a lot about computers can be a mistake.

 

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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6 hours ago, Trik'Stari said:

Second hand EV's won't be a viable industry until right to repair becomes the rule rather than the exception.

 

Change my mind?

Not hard.  It already is.

 

There are a bunch of electric vehicles sold used.  The Leaf, the Bolt, the bmw i3, and the tesla.  Any of them can be bought used.  Iirc the daily driver of Linus is a used volt, which is a plug in hybrid.  Effectively an electric car with an attached engine. 

Not a pro, not even very good.  I’m just old and have time currently.  Assuming I know a lot about computers can be a mistake.

 

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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10 hours ago, RGProductions said:

I wish any automaker except tesla could make teslas. Tesla's tech company roots are showing, and their unethical business practices are especially prominent. Hopefully batter technology can move away from lithium eventually, but until then (and my bank account grows significantly), I'll be sticking to combustion.

You mean like companies like Toyota and Lexus?  Oh wait, they are the companies that started advertising this year that their hybrids were "self-charging" vehicles (which is very misleading)

VW? Diesel scandal

 

Honestly, I think Tesla is doing a better job as a "tech company" car company.  They are at least pushing innovation, and the fact is the MCU is in it's infancy...and the Tesla itself really is in it's infancy, so there are likely long-term issues that weren't really dealt with (because they might not have predicted it).  Look at other vehicle manufacturers, Toyota's had massive rust issues in the early 90's.

 

I'm not saying that Tesla's are worth the money they are charging, but the way I put it is it's like buying into the brand new Apple Silicon...there might be issues, and you are paying a premium...but that doesn't inherently make the Apple Silicon bad. (e.g. if it turns out in a year or two to have security flaws in it).  Another example being the Nissan Leaf...the original version of that are pretty much bricked if they have the original batteries in it.  Sometimes you pay the price of being early to the game.

 

10 hours ago, WereCatf said:

Basically, second-hand Teslas are a very risky buy and you really should look at something (anything?) else, unless you have some way of verifying that the car you're buying has had its Flash-storage replaced with new one! Welp, that might cause Teslas' resale-value to drop quite a bit, at least if the buyers are savvy enough to pay attention!

It's apparently like $1500 for an MCU replacement.  Honestly, I think the bigger risk of buying any second hand electric is the battery degradation.  Mixed that with reduced maintenance cost.  Just like buying any used vehicles...you will find a few skeletons in the closet that will require potential repairs.

 

 

 

Does anyone actually know if the modern MCU's are affected.  Noticed in the article only up until 2018 was listed (which was when they switched to making their own MCU's instead of relying on Tegra chips). 

3735928559 - Beware of the dead beef

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12 hours ago, RGProductions said:

I wish any automaker except tesla could make teslas. Tesla's tech company roots are showing, and their unethical business practices are especially prominent. Hopefully batter technology can move away from lithium eventually, but until then (and my bank account grows significantly), I'll be sticking to combustion.

If Subaru made Teslas it would be the best car ever made!

 

*I'm not at all biased, currently driving an Outback (and that's not my first Subaru)*

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10 hours ago, Trik'Stari said:

Second hand EV's won't be a viable industry until right to repair becomes the rule rather than the exception.

 

Change my mind?

Right to repair is not the problem with EVs it's the battery price that is the problem. 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Spindel said:

Right to repair is not the problem with EVs it's the battery price that is the problem. 

I would further define that to the pig-ina-poke problem of battery wear.  How worn is the battery?  Does the car have 200k miles left in it or 200?  It’s most of the cost of the vehicle. Tesla’s have wildly high resale values.  They didn’t used to be high.  What made them high was reports coming out that there were tesla Ses that got 500k miles and were still going on a single battery pack.  At the end of the day cars are $ per mile. How far can you go for your money?  There are minimum comfort standard and things, but that appears to be most of it.  Mercedes got expensive for the same reason back in the 80’s.  They did fleet cars for taxis.  The cars were pulling insane odometer readings so their resale value went up so their sticker price went up.  Now they’re trying to sell on speed and it’s not working so well.   Imho the best advertisement Volvo ever had was that million mile car that dude had.  There was a beetle that did a million miles. Beetles were the beat selling car in the world for a long time.  Their interiors were garbage. Uncomfortable, few amenities, etc..  they looked stupid.  It wasn’t important.

Edited by Bombastinator

Not a pro, not even very good.  I’m just old and have time currently.  Assuming I know a lot about computers can be a mistake.

 

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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3 hours ago, Spindel said:

Right to repair is not the problem with EVs it's the battery price that is the problem. 

That's a fair point.

Ketchup is better than mustard.

GUI is better than Command Line Interface.

Dubs are better than subs

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Posted

I have a tesla and I had my eMMC fail, and i also submitted a file to the NTSHA about it so i have some pretty good first hand knowledge of this subject.

 

So when the board failed the car still drives and works (some settings defaulted to low prob for safety or something just annoying, so the steering was sloppy and the acceleration was slow) but the main screen (MCU) is off and the turn signals dont work so i had to use hand signals like i was on a bicycle :) 

Tesla originally was charging about $500 to do a replacement then lowered it to $350 and now if you can prove that your board is failing its free if you're under 100k miles and 8 years. However, the "prove your board is failing" means that an error message pops up on the screen otherwise its "operating in spec".

 

Mine failed back in july 2020 and there is a company in So-Cal, EV Fix ME that has the skills and capabilities to fix the eMMC for about the same price as tesla, and since i could just pull apart my MCU and mail the board to them it's a lot easier than getting an appt at tesla 2 weeks out and 2.5 hours away and they at the time were only replacing it with the same part that'll just fail again, (Now they are using a bigger chip so it won't fail in my lifetime) and the guys at ev fix me use a larger chip so it won't run out of writes pretty much ever. The choice of who to get to fix it was quite clear.

They fixed my board and sent it back to me in like 3 days, its installed for a few months now and its running great.

 

There reason for the board failure in the first place was they only used an 8GB chip and we all know how the limited writes to SSD's work but the software at the time was sooooo small it seemed logical to use that size and it would be fine. but the file size is now quite a bit bigger and more stuff gets written to it and that is why it went to shit.

 

Silver'ish lining is tesla said that in Feb 2021 they will have a program to reimburse people that either paid tesla or another company to fix the eMMC so i'll be getting my money back for the issue.

 

Another thing tesla batteries are getting better all the time and the current ones just got a ~5% range increase from manufacturing changes. and the next battery will be quite something to behold i think its gonna be like a 4680 or so.

 

And right to repair is very important not only for EV's but all cars, i was very glad to see that it passed in Massachusetts. Now we just need the rest of the country to join in on that, currently there is a free online manual for tesla, (kinda allowed kinda not) and tesla also has their manual online but its not downloadable and its time based to view and quite expensive. But a lot of tesla people are also gar people and like tinkering so the need for proper tools and diag equipment to the public is a good step forward.

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On 11/17/2020 at 11:53 AM, Michael McAllister said:

Source: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2020/11/after-12523-replacements-feds-investigate-tesla-media-control-unit-failures/

 

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) is investigating Tesla after thousands of replacements of its Media Control Unit have plagued the company.  The MCU controls the primary functions of the vehicle, including the touchscreen.  Investigators believe the issue may stem from the use of an 8GB eMMC NAND flash chip, which is written to often. Because of this, the chip reaches its write cycle limit within a few years.  According to Ars Technica:

 

 

Tesla has attempted to address the issue of excessive logging for over a year:

Given that this is a critical consumer safety concern, a recall is probable.  It's disconcerting that an issue like this took so long to address.  Tesla's quality control, or lack thereof, leaves a lot to be desired.

The disturbing thing is that the undersized eMMC was used at all. Why wasn't the logging on a SD card? To prevent tampering in case the vehicle was in an accident? The places where some companies try to shave a few pennies is always baffling.

 

To that end, I read on another forum from the person who was involved with designing the thing that Tesla knew it was a problem before ever releasing cars with it.

 

This is one of the more serious arguments why flash memory shouldn't be used in specific situations, and why it should never be soldered to the PCB. If your device needs to log things that much, it should go to a dedicated write-buffering ramdrive on the device and only written to the card 4K at a time (or whatever the blocksize is on the flash media) to minimize erase-write cycles.

 

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