AT&T shelving DSL may leave hundreds of thousands hanging by a phone line

[SpikeSpiegel]

AT&T shelving DSL may leave hundreds of thousands hanging by a phone line

 

Source:  https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/columnist/2020/10/03/att-dsl-internet-digital-subscriber-line-outdated/5880219002/

 

One of America’s largest internet providers is uploading its oldest broadband technology into the sunset.

On Oct. 1, AT&T stopped selling digital-subscriber-line connections, stranding many existing subscribers on those low-speed links and leaving new residents of DSL-only areas without any wired broadband.

“We’re beginning to phase out outdated services like DSL and new orders for the service will no longer be supported after October 1,” a corporate statement sent beforehand read. “Current DSL customers will be able to continue their existing service or where possible upgrade to our 100% fiber network.”

DSL – a broadband connection delivered over old copper telephone lines – is no prize at AT&T. The company doesn’t sell downloads faster than 6 Mbps, less than a fourth of the 25-Mbps minimum definition of the Federal Communications Commission and further cramps their utility with stringent data caps of just 150 gigabytes.

 

But the technology that provided many people (myself included) their first real broadband still works to provide an always-on connection and far more capacity than satellite connectivity.  

“I'm really not surprised that AT&T is phasing out DSL, as it's an obsolete technology,” emailed one soon-be-stranded DSL subscriber, retiree Jack Mangold of Collettsville, North Carolina. “I am, however, very disappointed that AT&T has no interest in replacing DSL in rural areas with some other technology.”

AT&T reported 653,000 total DSL connections at the end of its second quarter, compared to 14.48 million on its fiber-optic and hybrid-fiber services. The latter, sold as “AT&T Internet,” combines fiber trunk lines with DSL last-mile connections for faster speeds.

 

The company has seen DSL subscribers steadily dwindle. Bruce Leichtman, president and principal analyst at the research firm Leichtman Research Group, wrote in an email that two years ago, AT&T had just over a million DSL customers. 

“AT&T basically gave up on fighting cable over a third of its territory” said Dave Burstein, editor of the trade publication Fast Net News. 

 

That decline has put AT&T narrowly behind Verizon in this slower slice of the market; that New York firm reported 661,000 DSL connections in its second quarter, versus 6.298 million Fios fiber-optic connections. 

Verizon and such smaller telecom firms as Lumen (formerly CenturyLink) and Frontier have not announced plans to sunset their own DSL. That’s a good thing for the potentially 3 to 6% of the U.S. that Burstein estimated can only get wired broadband via this technology, even if such fixed-wireless ventures as Verizon’s just-announced expansion of its unlimited-data LTE Home Internet service to some rural areas across 48 states give more people more choices.

But for those customers to get faster connections, providers can’t neglect their networks.

“When I was at the FCC, there was actually hope that DSL technology could be improved to provide actual high speed broadband,” emailed Gigi Sohn, a fellow at the Georgetown Law Institute for Technology Law & Policy who served as an advisor to FCC chairman Tom Wheeler during the Obama administration. “If I recall correctly, the companies were making promises of speeds around 25 Mbps or even higher.”  

That remains possible, as the CEO of a regional provider offering DSL over AT&T phone lines humble-bragged in a Twitter direct-message conversation. 

“We deliver up to 100 Mbps,” wrote Dane Jasper, CEO of Sonic. That Santa Rosa, California firm reaches those speeds by pairing DSL connections and installing its own, upgraded switching gear. In some areas, it also sells separate fiber-optic connections that can run 10 times as fast.

Jasper said Sonic customers in its slower lanes don’t have to worry about their own bandwidth’s viability: “That is unaffected by AT&T’s decisions about their own network.”

[Dietrichw]

So they are refusing to update some equipment to VDSL2? Some ISPs use fiber to the node and then VDSL2 to the home. My ISP in the mountains uses ADSL2+ for the basic tier packages and VDSL2 for the plans that exceed the capabilities of ADSL2+. They even recently stopped giving out modems that don't support VDSL2.

 

edit- I didn't fully notice they didn't even reach the limit of ADSL2+

[SpikeSpiegel]

7 minutes ago, Dietrichw said:

So they are refusing to update some equipment to VDSL2? Some ISPs use fiber to the node and then VDSL2 to the home. My ISP in the mountains uses ADSL2+ for the basic tier packages and VDSL2 for the plans that exceed the capabilities of ADSL2+. They even recently stopped giving out modems that don't support VDSL2.

 

edit- I didn't fully notice they didn't even reach the limit of ADSL2+

My HOA has halted any new AT&T Fiber and most people in our area have UVerse DSL and can't get above 10mbps.   That's why we switched to Comcast 2 years ago.  Our HOA is basically trying to get a contract with Comcast and is trying to get rid of AT&T.

[Donut417]

17 minutes ago, Dietrichw said:

So they are refusing to update some equipment to VDSL2

It might not be that simple. For example I live a mile from Detroit Metro Airport. The AT&T Co is actually located on the Airport property. As a result its very hard for them to provide upgrades. Those who live on the edge of our city can get Uverse as they are probably connected to a neighboring cities network. But many of the people here can only get 18 Mbps DSL. When they were providing service to my neighborhood they could only do like 6 Mbps, but they no longer provider service in my general area. 

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, Dietrichw said:

 

edit- I didn't fully notice they didn't even reach the limit of ADSL2+

Well only sort of, ADSL2+ and VDSL2 have huge bandwidth drop off over distance so getting greater than 10Mbps requires you to be very close to the road side cabinet.

 

 

For these and the newer POTS broadband technologies "last mile" doesn't actually apply, because you have to be way closer than a mile to get the faster speeds. Even half mile is too far.

[Fasterthannothing]

21 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Well only sort of, ADSL2+ and VDSL2 have huge bandwidth drop off over distance so getting greater than 10Mbps requires you to be very close to the road side cabinet.

 

 

For these and the newer POTS broadband technologies "last mile" doesn't actually apply, because you have to be way closer than a mile to get the faster speeds. Even half mile is too far.

Yeap there is absolutely no point in doing VDSL the drop off point is too close. The cost would be too high and wouldn't benefit anyone except a handful of people that live right next to a junction point. This is coming from someone who only has access to DSL I can't be mad at companies not investing in technology that basically only works on a lab. However I would like investment into 5G, wireless towers, or more fiber lines to rural areas.

[Vanderburg]

3 hours ago, CalintzJerevinan said:

My HOA has halted any new AT&T Fiber and most people in our area have UVerse DSL and can't get above 10mbps.   That's why we switched to Comcast 2 years ago.  Our HOA is basically trying to get a contract with Comcast and is trying to get rid of AT&T.

That's not good. Let them both in. Let them compete.

[Mark Kaine]

5 hours ago, leadeater said:

Well only sort of, ADSL2+ and VDSL2 have huge bandwidth drop off over distance so getting greater than 10Mbps requires you to be very close to the road side cabinet.

 

 

For these and the newer POTS broadband technologies "last mile" doesn't actually apply, because you have to be way closer than a mile to get the faster speeds. Even half mile is too far.

I can't really read the graph, so question. I'm about...200-400 meters away to the "cabinet" which is really just down the next street (can't know how long the cables actually are so I have to guess) and I get ~95mb down/ 28mb up. Does this graph reflect that?

 

I'm just curious because I know the DTAG is using quite sophisticated tech to get "fiber" to homes , even though it's of course not fiber, it's just copper for the "last mile".

 

They also about doubled the speeds here in the last 2 years or so, and iirc I could now get up to 250mb download speeds, over those same copper lines... not too shabby. Although it would ofc be better they would invest in actual fiber connections.

 

 

But yeah, those numbers, not just in that graph (that I can't fully decipher) seem a bit "outdated" compared to what we get here (in germany)?

 

 

Edit:  

Quote

Telekom is actively promoting broadband expansion with modern fiber-optic technology. By the end of 2019 - depending on the legal and regulatory framework - around 80 percent of households could then be supplied with high-speed Internet of at least 50 Mbit / s and up to 100 Mbit / s. In several million households, with MagentaZuhause XL we will increase the speed to up to 250 Mbit / s from August. When uploading, the speed quadruples from up to 10 to up to 40 Mbit / s, which makes sharing large files or videos even easier.

 

https://www.telekom.de/netz/glasfaser/glasfaserausbau-status

 

[leadeater]

23 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

I can't really read the graph, so question. I'm about...200-400 meters away to the "cabinet" which is really just down the next street (can't know how long the cables actually are so I have to guess) and I get ~95mb down/ 28mb up. Does this graph reflect that?

Yes, once you start going past your type of distance you get that massive drop off.

 

23 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

They also about doubled the speeds here in the last 2 years or so, and iirc I could now get up to 250mb download speeds, over those same copper lines... not too shabby. Although it would ofc be better they would invest in actual fiber connections.

I think that's G.Fast but I'd have to look it up, very new anyway.

 

Edit:

VDSL2 35b or G.fast

 

23 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

But yeah, those numbers, not just in that graph (that I can't fully decipher) seem a bit "outdated" compared to what we get here (in germany)?

They are but the story is about the US 

[Mark Kaine]

37 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Yes, once you start going past your type of distance you get that massive drop off.

hmm, I see, I would have to check how many of these "cabinets" (think they call them "dslam") there actually are, I just know the one down the street here...

 

39 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I think that's G.Fast but I'd have to look it up, very new anyway.

They call it "vectoring" (up to 250mbit... I also thought that's not actually possible but apparently it is, they gotta use some kind of amplifiers I suppose) 

 

41 minutes ago, leadeater said:

They are but the story is about the US

Yeah, I know But it's interesting how different the approaches are... it's also not quite clear to me why the DTAG chose to go this route, I guess it's too expensive to put new lines to every house / street and they probably think it's "good enough" . 

[leadeater]

51 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

They call it "vectoring" (up to 250mbit... I also thought that's not actually possible but apparently it is, they gotta use some kind of amplifiers I suppose) 

You can have vectored and non-vectored VDSL2, but VDSL2 actually has different Profiles or Annexes and these offer different speeds. There is also the theoretical speed of the technology and that actual achievable (that 250 is closer to the achievable).

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VDSL#Profiles

 

Vectoring can be used on more than one of those profiles.

 

More generally speaking when people talk about VDSL these 3 are used, getting very specific like above usually isn't necessary.

 

But VDSL2 is getting replaced with G.fast, which is up to 1Gbps over copper but the caveat there is it needs to be good quality copper or you'll get lower speeds. G.fast is also proposed up to 2Gbps as well. ADSL2+/VDSL2/G.fast all have the rapid speed drop off over distance but the rates and distances are different, ADSL2+ is actually the best of the 3 for longer distances and G.fast being the worst by far for that. So if you are rural you want ADSL2+ not VDSL2 or G.fast, one of those cases where forward progress is worse (for you, those rural people).

[Donut417]

6 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

But yeah, those numbers, not just in that graph (that I can't fully decipher) seem a bit "outdated" compared to what we get here (in germany)?

Well thats because here in the US ISP's will try to push out all they can get out of their copper network without upgrades. Most DSL providers, thats what they have done. Hell Verizon has pretty much let their network rot. If your not on their Fiber network, your pretty much screwed. Both Verizon and AT&T are hedging their bets on 4 and 5G services. Because offering that is much easier. 

[Donut417]

I wonder if this will effect POTS. I mean it’s heavily regulated, are they just going to legally be able to walk away? Will another company buy the POTS network? 

[SpikeSpiegel]

1 hour ago, Donut417 said:

Well thats because here in the US ISP's will try to push out all they can get out of their copper network without upgrades. Most DSL providers, thats what they have done. Hell Verizon has pretty much let their network rot. If your not on their Fiber network, your pretty much screwed. Both Verizon and AT&T are hedging their bets on 4 and 5G services. Because offering that is much easier. 

Sadly most houses built before the late 2000's still have copper wiring.  AT&T told us we can't get fiber.  So our last option was Comcast.  Going from 10 mbps to 200 mbps was a better option.  Also AT&T tried to upgrade our speed to 12 mbps and our connection/modem kept dropping like a rock.

[Donut417]

1 hour ago, CalintzJerevinan said:

AT&T told us we can't get fiber. 

Must live in a poor neighborhood. ATT only graces richer neighborhoods with fiber. Every one else is on xDSL or Wireless. 

[Doobeedoo]

I'm still on limited 20Mbps on my scuffed copper line.

[Lurick]

But just look at all the competition this created by allowing all these companies to merge and bless us with lower prices and better service!!!

I'm just so grateful that large ISPs were able to take billions of taxpayer dollars over the past 10+ years to expand service offerings like fiber to all the rural areas before sun-setting legacy technology.....

 

 

/S

[Unixsystem]

Basically just guaranteeing that Starlink will have an immediate market desperate for decent internet. 

[Warin]

I just did a speed test. 330.9 down and 338.53 up.  I am almost always amazed that people down in the US accept such pathetic speeds from what amount to telecom monopolies. The worst part is that the main reason there are monopolies is collusion amongst the telecoms to eliminate competition wherever possible.

[GDRRiley]

AT&T is stopping pure DSL. they still have Fiber to the node then DSL or fiber to the home.

 

Spoiler

Techs report that in some cases, AT&T is installing fiber "backbone" that could serve many households, but not installing the equipment necessary to connect it to homes. Of responding techs with knowledge of fiber deployment, 63 percent (546/869) report that in their work areas, AT&T is not installing splitting equipment even where a fiber backbone exists. As a result, consumers can not purchase next-generation fiber service, even if a fiber network exists nearby.

AT&T is pulling some comcast level of BS

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/10/life-in-atts-slow-lane-millions-left-without-fiber-as-company-kills-dsl/2/

[Donut417]

1 hour ago, Warin said:

US accept such pathetic speeds from what amount to telecom monopolies.

Its not that we accept it. Its more like we have no choice. Telecoms have metric shit tons of money and the average person does not. As a result who do you think Mr./Mrs. Congress/Senate person is going to listen to? 

 

The second thing is that its not profitable to push such service in rural areas. So unless the government wires everyone up with Fiber, then rural areas will never have "High speed" internet. 

1 hour ago, GDRRiley said:

T&T is pulling some comcast level of BS

How? Last I have seen Comcast offers much better service then AT&T could ever do on xDSL. 

[GDRRiley]

6 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

How? Last I have seen Comcast offers much better service then AT&T could ever do on xDSL. 

comcast does some shady stuff. like 200% price increases in a year

[Donut417]

1 minute ago, GDRRiley said:

comcast does some shady stuff. like 200% price increases in a year

Not as shady as AT&T who will claim that your on Fiber, when you are actually on DSL. 

[GDRRiley]

2 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

Not as shady as AT&T who will claim that your on Fiber, when you are actually on DSL. 

fiber to the node was pretty good for me when I had it. I'm now on their fiber to the home plan but that may get swapped for fixed based wireless that has a fiber backbone

[Donut417]

Just now, GDRRiley said:

fiber to the node was pretty good for me when I had it. I'm now on their fiber to the home plan but that may get swapped for fixed based wireless that has a fiber backbone

No, their employees were claiming that you had Fiber to your home, when you didn't. Comcast never made any such claims. I wouldn't know how AT&T service is because AT&T stopped severing my neighborhood a long time ago and when they did, it was 6 Mbps DSL. Because........ they sucked ass. While Comcast offered much greater speeds.