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NVIDIA just made EVERYTHING ELSE obsolete.

GabenJr
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Nvidia’s GeForce Ultimate Countdown turned out to be the RTX 3000 series reveal, and I’ve got some thoughts…

 

 

Anthony @ LINUS MEDIA GROUP             

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Just now, savstars said:

You're too slow.  I have already watched JayzTwoCents, Gamers Nexus and Bitwit's videos.  What happened to the dedication Linus?  

I really hope you're being sarcastic lmfao

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6 minutes ago, savstars said:

You're too slow.  I have already watched JayzTwoCents, Gamers Nexus and Bitwit's videos.  What happened to the dedication Linus?  

True same here

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1 minute ago, kelvinhall05 said:

I really hope you're being sarcastic lmfao

I hope you are being sarcastic.  I'm being brutal.  I think it has been 6 hours since Gamers Nexus published his video, 7 hours for JayzTwoCents and I think two hours since BitWits.  

 

Some of the LinusTechTips videos have been getting rather lazy.  Look at the "Project Zero Cables" video, and then compare it to the whole room water cooling series.  The "Project Zero Cables" video is just lazy, as there are so many things wrong (like the cables not being secured well, metal bar not being countersunk, etc). 

 

The time delay for the RTX3000 video is just adds to my concern of the channel.  Linus has a large staff.  He should be able to distribute the tasks across this team to ensure a quick, and still professional, response time.  They knew this announcement from Nvidia was coming, they could have planned for it.  

 

Again, where is the dedication Linus?

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19 minutes ago, savstars said:

I hope you are being sarcastic.  I'm being brutal.  I think it has been 6 hours since Gamers Nexus published his video, 7 hours for JayzTwoCents and I think two hours since BitWits.  

 

Some of the LinusTechTips videos have been getting rather lazy.  Look at the "Project Zero Cables" video, and then compare it to the whole room water cooling series.  The "Project Zero Cables" video is just lazy, as there are so many things wrong (like the cables not being secured well, metal bar not being countersunk, etc). 

 

The time delay for the RTX3000 video is just adds to my concern of the channel.  Linus has a large staff.  He should be able to distribute the tasks across this team to ensure a quick, and still professional, response time.  They knew this announcement from Nvidia was coming, they could have planned for it.  

 

Again, where is the dedication Linus?

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As to the question asked in the LTT video about why Nvidia are offering this huge performance-per-dollar increase now, I had made predictions that something like this would happen for a variety of reasons:

On 6/22/2020 at 6:56 AM, Delicieuxz said:

I think there are some reasons why we might expect the 3000-series to be priced much better than the 2000-series was:

 

- RTX didn't turn-out to be as big a deal and a card-seller as Nvidia had hoped. It doesn't help that its performance is terrible to the point that many people simply don't want to use it.

 

- Nvidia's BS about their large surge in GPU sales not being from crypto-miners blew-up in their faces, with Nvidia being left sitting on a mountain of unsold 2000-series stock.

 

- The new consoles are going to release this autumn and every sale of a console is profit for Nvidia's main competitor, AMD. Nvidia will surely aim to stymie console purchases by both releasing their 3000-series ahead of them, and offering a more attractive price on them. Otherwise, the new consoles are going to eat into Nvidia's potential profits.

 

- Due to covid-19, many people are low on funds and can't afford the obscene and abusive prices the 2000-series was listed at. If Nvidia increase prices further at this time, or even if they don't decrease them a bit, it's likely to be seen as callous and offensive by potential customers.

 

 

It's also possible that Nvidia upcharged the 2000-series as a last-chance cash-grab, knowing they'd have to drop prices down again with the 3000-series due to the arrival of new consoles.

 

So, I think there's a chance that we'll see lower prices for the 3000 series. And we should see them because the 2000-series prices are unjustifiable and pure greed.

 

But, offsetting all these sound logical reasons to lower prices for the 3000 series is the fact that the company in question is Nvidia, which has shown itself to be divorced from rationality and unaware of its surroundings.

Of course, rather than go the lower-price route, Nvidia opted to deliver far more performance at the RTX 2000 series' prices.

 

I also just added a couple more reasons to the list for why Nvidia would have done it in a post in the thread titled Nvidia 30 Series unveiled - RTX 3080 2x faster than 2080 for $699.

55 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

A couple of more reasons to add to that list:

 

- AMD are soon to be releasing their more powerful Navi GPUs, and of course Nvidia want to direct as many sales as possible towards themselves while flaunting their status as the lead graphics card developer.

 

- Intel are entering the GPU market (and I hope they're going to stay in the market) and the 3000 series is Nvidia's last-chance to face a market with only 1 competitor. Nvidia will also want to make it as difficult as they can for Intel to get a foothold in the market, which is best done by increasing the gap Intel has to close in order to be competitive.

 

 

The 3000 series isn't priced lower than the RTX 2000 series, but its price-to-performance ratio blows the RTX 2000 series away. That accomplishes the same thing, but with a higher entry fee.

 

It seems that Nvidia are sucker-punching the competition with the 3000 series and making the upcoming consoles look weak before they launch. I think Nvidia were stingy with the 2000 series knowing that they were going to pull this move with the 3000 just before the new consoles release. And by making the 2000 series performance-value offering meagre, they enabled the 3000 series to offer a huge jump over the 2000 series.

 

 

I also think the $2000 and then $1400 price rumours for the 3090 might have been a case of what I suggested in these posts:

On 8/19/2020 at 3:46 AM, Delicieuxz said:

I think that Nvidia or whatever company pricing rumours are about might deliberately leak rumours of different prices to gauge how people respond to them, and then decide the pricing based on what they think they can get away with based on the feedback. So, if a lot of people say they're OK paying a higher price for a part, rather than that the price is unreasonable, then it may be that the manufacturer decides to price the part part higher in the end.

 

On 8/19/2020 at 6:00 AM, Delicieuxz said:

That would be assuming that a company would only release actual price candidates and not minimum and maximum along a spectrum to see what people gravitate towards, how differently people's reactions are to the minimum versus the maximum, or to see which pricing people find more believable or at which price people start getting angry.

 

There are a lot more ways to get feedback on customer willingness and tolerance than by putting out a solid price candidate.

 

On 8/19/2020 at 9:26 AM, Delicieuxz said:

Another way that a company might use two price rumours like $2000 and $1400 to their benefit, if they plan their final release price to be unpalatable to most people, is by first releasing a fake figure that is extremely unreasonable and letting people express revulsion at it, and then later release the much lower price, which is still pretty unreasonable, but because it's so much lower than the first price they released, people accept it a lot easier and feel relieved, rather than angry, after having first been exposed to the much larger price rumour.

 

Doing this can condition people into accepting higher prices, as rather than be critical of the high price, they feel relieved that they're not being charged the higher price rumour that they were first exposed to.

 

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Honestly i'm stuck between the 3070 or 3080 as both seem to be a good value at least if you compare it to the last gen.

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Too much shilling  (only thing missing from  this video is to say "But wait there is moooore" ) ...

 

Because nvidia had crazy stupid prices the previous few generations doesnt mean that a small price cut on THOSE ridiculous passed prices consist a bargain!

 

As far as I am concerned 500$ is what should be the Flagship price for a GPU and you pay that money to get the 3rd/4th tier one (depending on what their "endgame " gpu will be) .... so booooooo

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8 minutes ago, papajo said:

Too much shilling  (only thing missing for this video is to say "But wait there is moooore" ) ...

 

Because nvidia had crazy stupid prices the previous few generations doesnt mean that a small price cut on THOSE ridiculous passed prices consist a bargain!

 

As far as I am concerned 500$ is what should be the Flagship price for a GPU and you pay that money to get the 3rd/4th tier one (depending on what their "endgame " gpu will be) .... so booooooo

It doesn't matter what you are concerned. For years, we have had top their gpus b overpriced. Now, we are getting insane prices. A 2080ti replacement for 500$? A Titan RTX replacement for 1500$!?!?! A 2080ti x2 for 700!?!!?!!?!! These are deals, as deals are what is a good value, to the person who is buying.

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6 minutes ago, TheTechWizardThatNeedsHelp said:

It doesn't matter what you are concerned. For years, we have had top their gpus b overpriced. Now, we are getting insane prices. A 2080ti replacement for 500$? A Titan RTX replacement for 1500$!?!?! A 2080ti x2 for 700!?!!?!!?!! These are deals, as deals are what is a good value, to the person who is buying.

Which is almost nobody hence they dropped the prices but as greedy as they are they dropped as little as possible but again I doubt they will have many buyers for decades the pries were around 450-500$ for the flagship and that is the right value..

 

a GPU SHOULD NOT cost as much as the rest of the ENTIRE PC because if you did not realize it even a 3rd tier RTX 2080 used to cost around 1000$... which is about 50% of the rest of the cumputer an average 2080 user would build around it... 

 

It is ridiculous. Its like buying a house and the TV costing half of the budget you paid for the house.

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2 minutes ago, papajo said:

Which is almost nobody hence they dropped the prices but as greedy as they are they dropped as little as possible but again I doubt they will have many buyers for decades the pries were around 450-500$ for the flagship and that is the right value..

 

a GPU SHOULD NOT cost as much as the rest of the ENTIRE PC because if you did not realize it even a 3rd tier RTX 2080 used to cost around 1000$... which is about 50% of the rest of the cumputer an average 2080 user would build around it... 

 

It is ridiculous. Its like buying a house and the TV costing half of the budget you paid for the house.

As little as possible? A what, 300 dollar price drop on the 2080 to 3080 launch is as little as possible? (Im not checking, that would put to much thought into your assinine argument) The TV isn't a requirement for a house. This is like the house and drywall. Most PCs don't have APUs. You have to have fucking walls in a house, just like you need a dgpu in a pc. Yes, some houses have brick interiors, and some PCs have APUs, but most gamers, of even low teir, have a dgpu, no APU.

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6 minutes ago, TheTechWizardThatNeedsHelp said:

A what, 300 dollar price drop on the 2080 to 3080 launch is as little as possible

You probably did not understand my initial post because that was exactly my point. 

 

34 minutes ago, papajo said:

Because nvidia had crazy stupid prices the previous few generations doesnt mean that a small price cut on THOSE ridiculous passed prices consist a bargain!

Or in other words a 300 price drop on a 500$ greedy price inflation(=1000$ total) is as little as possible and in no way a deal. 

 

500$ is the maximum a rational human being should spend on his graphics card (and that graphics card for that price should be a flagship)  even if you go to the WC and poop 100$ bills it doesnt mean that you need to throw them blindly I am pretty sure that even rich people try to excuse their expenses. 

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20 minutes ago, papajo said:

You probably did not understand my initial post because that was exactly my point. 

 

Or in other words a 300 price drop on a 500$ greedy price inflation(=1000$ total) is as little as possible and in no way a deal. 

 

500$ is the maximum a rational human being should spend on his graphics card (and that graphics card for that price should be a flagship)  even if you go to the WC and poop 100$ bills it doesnt mean that you need to throw them blindly I am pretty sure that even rich people try to excuse their expenses. 

Pre mining boom, 500 flagship gpus were a thing, yes. Now, the silicon costs way more, and inflation over the past 10 years also has a effect. These prices are reasonable for today's world.

 

Anyways, still a lower profit margin that TI makes on graphing calculators

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Samsungs "8nm" sucks, it is way behind TSMC 7nm and Samsung won't have their 5nm out for another 1-1.5 years which may get close to TSMC 7nm.

rumor is NVIDIA bulled Samsung into a 20-30% cost reduction vs tsmc 7nm. the yields suck, 3090 availability is worst than Vega VII at launch.

that 10gb of vram is sad. it needed 14-16gb

the 3070 needed 10-12 not 8

 

I'll be honest this seems like the lowest effort video you could make around this. read the press release add a few light jokes

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benh marks to. which their was none by third party

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I'd like to see how they benchmark.

I'd also want see how they preform on a PCIE gen 4 16x vs gen 3 16x and what the performance hit is on it, which will help me come to a final decision on what parts I'm buying for my new PC build

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57 minutes ago, kyle1046 said:

I'd like to see how they benchmark.

I'd also want see how they preform on a PCIE gen 4 16x vs gen 3 16x and what the performance hit is on it, which will help me come to a final decision on what parts I'm buying for my new PC build

same also real world power draw

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As good as the performance of the new cards might be, I do not understand two aspects of the 3070 and 3080:

Memory: 8 GB were basically introduced as the standard for enthusiast cards with the 1070/1080 back in 2016. I did expect a little bit more than 8 GB for the 3070 and 10 GB for the 3080 4 years later. Yes, the VRAM has gotten a lot faster, but is it enough for future games with high-resolution textures? I doubt it.

Displayport: DP1.4 has also been introduced with the 1070/1080 back in 2016. Without DSC it is limited to 4k120 at 8bit. DP1.4 is already a bottleneck. Without the proliferation of DP2.0 I don't see 4K240 monitors becoming a thing in the near future. HDMI 2.1 (42 Gb/s) is a nice addition, but it only increases the maximum bandwith by 60% compared to DP1.4 (26 Gb/s), DP2.0 (77 Gb/s) would triple it. And there is only one HDMI 2.1 port.

Edit: Even the 3090 doesn't have DP2.0:
grafik.png.b56e58dda12f1e8f49aa6156af5c948c.png

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This is the first thing in PC tech to be excited about for awhile. This is a jump heretofore-unseen since the 8800 GTX. But will it run MS Flight Simulator 2020?

 

One thing that's been boggling my mind has been what the XBoxSX & PS5 will be priced at. Typically the main consoles will try and hit the $400-500 range. But this holiday was shaping out to be... weird. Looking back at a comparisons between the XBox One and PC GPU's at Holiday 2013, the Xbox was $500 and you could run out and buy its GPU equivalent of a 750 Ti (three months after the Xbox One launched) for $150. This time, it was looking like we'd be in for a total flip. With the price of a 2080 Ti being $1,200, an Xbox Series X for the same performance looked like a really, really attractive buy for an upgrading PC gamer around the holiday even if it was $700-$800 schmeckles.

 

Now? Not so much. I don't think we'll see the XBoxSX and PS5 at $500 for what they're packing. And I don't think we'll see a 3060 RTX for $150 around February, but we'll be getting close enough that the market will be more or less reasonably within historical console launch alignment.

If this performance holds up, that 3080 is the card to get. It's going to hold it's value for years. You'll still see that $700 price point in a year, and either in a year or two the 3080 Ti will come out at $850 because still nothing will be close to the 3080, then a few years later you'll see second generation ampere 4080 at around $900 as Nvidia starts to jack those prices again without competition. Who knows when AMD will be able to get anything close to these.

46 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

As good as the performance of the new cards might be, I do not understand two aspects of the 3070 and 3080:

Memory

Displayport

3080 Ti, gotta give people some reason to buy it.

Edit Addition: To be fair though, the memory size probably has to do with hitting these cards' consumer price points within their acceptable margin as Nvidia doesn't have as much control over the price of GDDR6x VRAM (from Micron). I'd think though, with these cards almost assuredly becoming prolific among gamers, emphasis will be placed both in game engines and by developers on optimizing performance around the 8GB 3070 cache for the next three years or so. If they have to compress the textures and stream them in and out to get them to work in 8GB, they'll do what's necessary to get their game to look as good as possible next to competitors on the most common hardware.

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23 minutes ago, papajo said:

 

500$ is the maximum a rational human being should spend on his graphics card (and that graphics card for that price should be a flagship)  even if you go to the WC and poop 100$ bills it doesnt mean that you need to throw them blindly I am pretty sure that even rich people try to excuse their expenses. 

It seems your problem should be more with human nature and the economy rather than NVIDIA's sale tactics. You desire to be on the bleeding edge of technology, yet express frustration when this is out of budget? Rather blindsided 

 

I think this launch marks a good turn for NVIDIA as a company, and the graphics card market on the whole, particuarly after the holistic flop that Turing was. Obviously its cards are dramatically more expensive than the golden Pascal days, but when factoring inflation, R&D into RTX cores and increased cooling capability (no more garbage blower coolers) and comparing price-performance of Turing, Ampere is sensational. 

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1 hour ago, PrivateSpades said:

It seems your problem should be more with human nature and the economy rather than NVIDIA's sale tactics. You desire to be on the bleeding edge of technology, yet express frustration when this is out of budget? Rather blindsided 

 

 

 

 

 People were in the bleeding edge of technology from 1980 to about 2012 without paying more than 500$ for the flagship graphics card

 

That's not an excuse to higher the price margins to a ridiculous way.. a Nvidia GPU now costs more than all the other parts of a computer combined including the CPU (which is also cutting edge while also being a more important part in terms of functionality of the system compared to a GPU)  its just irrational.

 

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1 hour ago, papajo said:

People were in the bleeding edge of technology from 1980 to about 2012 without paying more than 500$ for the flagship graphics card

 

That's not an excuse to higher the price margins to a ridiculous way.. a Nvidia GPU now costs more than all the other parts of a computer combined including the CPU (which is also cutting edge while also being a more important part in terms of functionality of the system compared to a GPU)  its just irrational.

Your entire point basically is: The 3070 would make a nice flagship card (for 499$), but because there are two more tiers of performance and price, you are not satisfied?

Do you also think the price of NVME PCIe 4.0 drives are irrational? Because you could get a flagship 250 GB drive back in the days for 150$? Or a Threadripper? Because they dare to charge more than 400$ for 64 cores?

You could argue the price is unfair compared to the performance. In retrospect to the previous generation I wouldn't agree, because you'll get a lot more for the same price. I don't think Nvidia's profit margin for the 30XX series will be outrageous. If there would be a competitor (even RDNA2 is unlikely to come even close), they may have to turn it down a notch. But at least Nvidia isn't doing an Intel and just selling the same stuff with a new model number for half a decade.

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The price isn't just driven by the cost to manufacture, it's driven by consumer demand and willingness to pay. Back when Linus and Luke were reminiscing about graphics card prices in a recent WAN show, they, and many of us, were teens back in those early 2000's days. Most gamers at the time were fairly young and couldn't afford $1,000 graphics cards. I remember staring at a Geforce 2 demo when I could only afford a Riva TNT2 thinking "man, that card and it's reflections are amazing, but a GF2 is $200 and I don't want to spend that." PC Gaming was definitely more niche, with most gamers between 13-30. Now everyone has gotten older, and the age has spread to 13-45. And as you get older, you work, you can (hopefully) afford to buy things, and that $200 GF2 which might have taken you a few birthdays to save can be saved for a 2080 Ti in a few biweekly paychecks. And for the past decade, people have been willing to save and pay those prices for the greatest cards on the market. We can call it absurd, but not really irrational; it's fiscally understandable in a noncompetitive market.

Look, I'm not saying I personally agree with $1,000 to 1,200 cards, I haven't bought a new graphics card since the 780 GTX. I've been eager for gamers to stop paying these high amounts (and *cough* miners, god dang wallabies). But I can't blame Nvidia for charging a price that the market supports, and I can't blame them for winning the GPU wars for all of the 2010's. This is just what happens in capitalism when a company corners the market due to making better, cheaper products than the competition. But eventually after enough stagnation, competition will return as we see with the Xbox and PS5. It's also kinda important to Nvidia they price these "competitively" as they won't want to lose PC gamers to consoles. If the best they could do would be 2080 Ti performance at $1,000 in 2020 and 2021 (see: Intel), Nvidia would lose long-term customers for a decade due to high-end gaming moving to much more affordable console systems with equivalent performance for roughly half the price.

Competition is here; it's good. And after a decade PC gamers finally have some modicum of a win. I'm just happy that affordable, good, upgrade-worthy hardware is long at last coming to the PC after a whole generation of varying degrees of what I can only affectionately describe as expensive trash.

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