NVIDIA just made EVERYTHING ELSE obsolete.

[Kroon]

For those that arguing about price think about this:

 

Modern graphics cards are way mor then graphics cards.  Just a few years ago you would spend +$5000 on cards that did mathematical 3D calculations at slower then half the speed a 2000 series card. While you are speaking of cards from 1999 and their prices, at that time you would spend way over $10k on equipment for rendering that renderad so slow that the cheapest laptop you can find would be faster.

 

So you can't even come close to compare, there is no measurable way to compare unless you start scaling off all additional features from the modern cards.

[papajo]

11 minutes ago, Kroon said:

For those that arguing about price think about this:

 

Modern graphics cards are way mor then graphics cards.  Just a few years ago you would spend +$5000 on cards that did mathematical 3D calculations at slower then half the speed a 2000 series card. While you are speaking of cards from 1999 and their prices, at that time you would spend way over $10k on equipment for rendering that renderad so slow that the cheapest laptop you can find would be faster.

 

So you can't even come close to compare, there is no measurable way to compare unless you start scaling off all additional features from the modern cards.

They are just graphics cards software allows us to use them for other purposes than gaming. 

 

And we are talking about GPUs (so the chip on them) because the other stuff on the PCB is dirt cheap (ram excluded) 

 

What makes todays GPUs faster than older GPUs is that the "painting" on the chip is different. 

 

That's what a GPU is a painting on a silicon surface, they paint it in such a way to create transistors and stuff.... 

 

 

This is an ATI R360 

 

 

what makes this GPU slower than an ATI R580 

 

 

 

Is that the picture painted on the silicon surface is different. 

 

The way they print those pictures (and thus the cost ) is the same (its a more elaborate photocopy idea involving layers of spraying chemicals or etching in order to create various gates) 

[Kroon]

1 minute ago, papajo said:

They are just graphics cards software allows us to use them for other purposes than gaming. 

 

 

Just there, you missed the whole point. Or did you read?

 

Today's graphics cards are NOT gaming only anymore!  Just because YOU using as a gaming utility don't mean that it's only or even main purpose. 

[papajo]

Just now, Kroon said:

 

Just there, you missed the whole point. Or did you read?

 

Today's graphics cards are NOT gaming only anymore!  Just because YOU using as a gaming utility don't mean that it's only or even main purpose. 

And that's significant to the discussion at hand because? 

[HenrySalayne]

1 hour ago, papajo said:

They are exactly the same class what are you talking about the TNT2 was the pinnacle of PC graphics when it was launched... 

 

Because now compared to a 3000 its obviously slower doesnt mean anything.. a 1970 Ferrari is considerably slower than a 2020 Ferrari but they had more or less the same price when launched and both were the fastest ferrari when launched  (and basically the 70s top tier ferrari e.g the Ferrari 512  was more expensive than compared to the current flagship because their production lines werent as big as they are now) . 

It might be a valid point to say especially the 20 series was too expensive. But a lot of the things you said make it pretty hard to take you serious. There is no way you could sell a 3090 for 500$. Maybe for 1000$. And just because a company makes a considerable profit, doesn't mean we are paying too much for their products. It's actually a good thing if a company earns some money. And no, getting billions of transistors onto a really tiny die and dissipating 350 watts of power isn't as cheap to manufacture as graphics cards "in the good ol' time".

 

And even your claim about Ferrari is just wrong. If we compare the 288 GTO (ca. 90,000$ back in 1985) to a similar but newer model (the SF90 Stradale für 625,000$) and adjust for inflation, the 288 GTO would cost "just" 220,000$ today.

If you want to proof something, start up Excel, put the Flops per Dollar of the last 10 years into a sheet and show us the graph. I'm curious what we will see, but I would certainly speculate, you could get more Flop per Dollar for every new generation, even if the increase wasn't steep in the last few years.

 

Edit: Funnily enough somebody already did the work: https://aiimpacts.org/2019-recent-trends-in-gpu-price-per-flops/

As you can see, the prices have dropped consistently over the past decade. Since 2017 (10 series) they were stagnating, but with the 30 series there should be a steep drop. May we now return to the topic because your point has been dismissed by the evidence?

[papajo]

Just now, HenrySalayne said:

There is no way you could sell a 3090 for 500$.

Because? 

 

1 minute ago, HenrySalayne said:

It's actually a good thing if a company earns some money.

Some money yea but after a point (after 500$ imho) its embezzlement

 

 

4 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

. If we compare the 288 GTO (ca. 90,000$ back in 1985) to a similar but newer model (the SF90 Stradale für 625,000$) and adjust for inflation, the 288 GTO would cost "just" 220,000$ today.

That is not it's direct successor if we take for example the F40 of the 80s who had a sticker price of 700k and compare it to F50 which came 10 years after the F40 and had a price of 675k$ without calculating inflation but also using ferraris as an example was not the best way to go since they are basically a niche for rich people  so prices are irrational by definition   (and also units produced per model vary which varies the price as well) what I said though applies to any mass produced vehicle or anything the average joe can buy. 

[Kroon]

16 minutes ago, papajo said:

And that's significant to the discussion at hand because? 

Because the price of any product should reflects all it uses not only part of it.  If you only focus on one of the usability why not then focus on simulation?

 

Why add functionality if you can't  get paid for it?

 

 

[papajo]

5 minutes ago, Kroon said:

Because the price of any product should reflects all it uses not only part of it.

So LEDS should cost 1000$ because they have millions of uses from just decorating your PC to help surgeons see better when they operate on a patient or warming and help growing your plants indoors....

 

If anything increasing the clientel from just gamers to other people means increased numbers of orders which by the laws of production mean decrease in cost of manufacturing and distribution which should mean lower prices. 

[SolarNova]

IF the 3090 is indeed a Titan, and there will be NO other card released called a Titan this generation, then we 'should' expect to see another card above the 3080.

 

Why?

 

Because every generation including and since the introduction of the Titan, has had the top end 'gaming' card be near identical in performance (within 10%) to the Titan of that generation.

The 3080 as shown by Nividas launch vid doesnt seem to be close enough performance wise to the 3090 to fill that role.

 

We can 'hope' that they do what they did with the 700 series. When they release the 3080ti/super it replaces the 3080 at the current MSRP, and they drop the 3080 in price.

 

However, since Nvidia screwed over the consumer with the 20 series, i dont trust them to do the above, i expect them to introduce a 3080ti/super only if AMD compete and even then I expect they will put it in at a price between the current 3080 MSRP and the 3090 MSRP, making the top 'gaming' card in  the 30 series as overpriced as the top gaming card in the 20 series (2080ti).

 

A possibly worse scenario is that they have no other card, between the 3080 and 3090, but instead release a card above the 3090 and call it a Titan, making the 3090 the real top end gaming card priced as if it were a Titan , just like the 2080ti.

[Kroon]

32 minutes ago, papajo said:

So LEDS should cost 1000$ because they have millions of uses from just decorating your PC to help surgeons see better when they operate on a patient or warming and help growing your plants indoors....

 

 

If you have one LED product that can replace millions of other expensive products, the price would increase.  But there is no such LED product.

 

For me and my company a few modern graphics cards have replaced hardware that 15 years ago cost us several $100k so for us the new cards are truly affordable.  Why wouldn't things like that have an effect on value of the card? Then add things like crypto mining and the value of the card get even higher.  You as a gamer only might not like that but games alone do not set a value of graphics cards.

[dogwitch]

well asus is going to release a 400 watt Strix card,

[Helpful Tech Witch]

I found it. A 2080 TI for sub 700.

[Nicholas Flamy]

14 hours ago, F1reB1rd said:

Should I sell my used RX 5700xt now? 

SAME! Should I sell mine? I have a Gigabyte AMD Radeon RX 5700 XT.

[St. Nick]

Papajo: You are calling a graphics card just a graphics card. except it isn't now is it? Just like how a CPU in recent years changed a considerable deal. It's not just a calculations core anymore. Memory management, integrated graphics, parallel processing. Just like how a CPU became much more complex and a do it all device. A GPU core is more comparable to an SOC now. It does way way more then just produce graphics and has way more parts then it used to. Even your analogy that painting on the silicon is the same is seriously flawed. smaller nodes have required ever more complex methods of 'painting' onto that silicon. In keeping with your analogy the paintbrushes have become far more advanced and expensive to make and the painting has become more expensive as a result. A GPU now has on board memory, Cuda, Tensor and RT cores are infact akin to processor cores. Simpler yes because they are dedicated to a single task but in essence the GPU die itself has become a 200+ core CPU, it is as expensive as a whole system because it IS one. It has it's own ram, it's own CPU, it's own motherboard, it's own cooling solution and it's own case. 

I would point your analogy towards cellphones. Do refresh my memory on the prices of the first smartphones. The Iphone and the Galaxy they were certainly not 1000+ dollar devices yet every increasing complexity and greater numbers of components and thus more involved processes of production have in fact made them more expensive. Tv's are much the same. What exactly does a high end OLED costs compared to even the most expensive tv's in the consumer segment from the 2000's?

This is the reality you are completely missing. Something has a cost to produce, and the more parts it has the higher that cost. If every part of a GPU has gotten more complex the processes behind producing the parts of these parts have gotten more expensive to. There is a very simple mathematical truth to this that is inherent to economics. Sure, even to the entire universe. Even if you value a human being in money, the complexity of our cells and how much it takes to make an organism like us function is incomparably more complex then the biology of an ant. Yet the 20 year old gpu's you are comparing to modern day ones are exactly that monumentally different in scale. A human being is literally made out of 30 bucks of raw materials, but just like you can't value the resulting person by the price of water and carbon you can't value a GPU by the fact it's just sand in the end. So please, let the false material equivalence go. That riva your lauding so hard didn't even have half the components of a modern gpu. It is a completely false equivalence in material cost, process cost, product complexity and even simple economics.

[papajo]

2 hours ago, Kroon said:

If you have one LED product that can replace millions of other expensive products, the price would increase.  But there is no such LED product.

 

LEDS are components GPUs are components on their own they have no use you have to rig them someway up to have the use you would like. 

 

example if you want portable gaming you need to put a GPU in a laptop if you want a rendering rig you need to put the GPU in a rig configured as a rederning rig (both in terms of hardware and software) if you want AI you need to get a u4 rack and put multiple of those GPUS

 

as LEDS so GPUs on their own are of no use (actually you could use a bare LED but not a bare GPU ) 

[Kroon]

@papajo   This is basic business economics.  Supply and demand.  If you by including more features to your product that will increase the demand and the value of your product increases.

 

Let's say you have an LED product you only can use in a computer case, that product have one value based on those that want LED in their computer case.  If you then add functionality to that LED so you also can use it in cars, then you have expanded your customer base with car owners and therefore increased the demand and product value.

 

Same thing with GPU.  If it only where able to output game graphics the value would be considerably less.

 

Again you are only looking at this from a gamer respective, you ned to look at the whole product not a single use case.

[Zberg]

Nvidia hard dunked on and took wind out of the sails of the new console GPU's and big Navi (if the numbers are legit) all at once.  Power move for sure.

 

The big claims that were coming out were new consoles might approach the performance of a 2080ti (teraflops anyways, so probably less) at best, and same with RDNA2/big navi.  Nvidia just said "hold my beer" and made their upper mid tier card beat everything on the table and then some.  The 3070 is going to fly off the shelves like hot cakes.  I mean literally a card that costs a little more than a 5700XT killing everything in the field...plus 2 more cards available above that for hardcore folks.  Good on em.

 

If the numbers end up being real, a 3070 combined with 3rd gen ryzen CPU (3600 or 3700x) would make for an insane price/performance monster.  3600 + 3070 would be an ideal 4k gaming machine, with PCIE 4.0 to boot if that ends up ever playing a role.  And with the NVENC, DLSS improvements, and huge ray tracing improvements?  Def a good time for buying PC hardware in the next few months gents!

 

Also RIP my 2x 2080ti's...bleeding edge tax hurts sometimes!

[papajo]

19 minutes ago, Kroon said:

Let's say you have an LED product you only can use in a computer case, that product have one value based on those that want LED in their computer case.  If you then add functionality to that LED so you also can use it in cars, then you have expanded your customer base with car owners and therefore increased the demand and product value.

its called a LED lamp.

 

Also value is directly associated with price, a PS5 for 10$ is a great value for 10000000$ its a bad value. 

 

 

 

 

 

But having said that the vast majority of Nvidias customer base are gamers. 

 

Also you speak as an nvidia lawyer are you not a consumer? Cant you see that this hurts you as well? 

 

Even if you personally dont use nvidia GPUs for games cant you see that if they were cheaper (and there is no reason for them not to be) that you would have an evern greater value? maybe be able to afford 2 instead of one and finish your job at half the time? 

 

There is such as a thing called a price ceiling  among other reasons governments apply those to control monopolies as a consumer you should support that. 

 

The issue is that as long as this positive PR goes for nvidia there is no way for organizations (e.g consumer protection) to bother investigating on how to tackle the paperwork to pursue legally against nvidia to categorize it as a monopoly (because it is) 

 

as I shown (using steam's database) more than 96% of the gamers are not able to purchase a GPU that can play everything at max because of its price. 

 

a big chunk (if not more than half -I am too bored to go now and check for the exact figure) are not able to afford a mid tier one. 

 

and that is for no reason other than nvidia manipulating the masses (just as apple does in fact everything began when jenses wore that leather jacket to copycat jobs and present his company's products in a apple like way lol) atleast with apple you have many alternatives with nvidia not so many if any at all (depents on the tier) 

[Kroon]

41 minutes ago, papajo said:

But having said that the vast majority of Nvidias customer base are gamers. 

 

Well there is where you are wrong.  During 2017 over 19% of all nVidia GPU where sold to data centers. Almost as much when't to their professional cards (Quadro, Titans etc).  Think it was just above 50% that when't to consumer grade graphics cards and quite large amount of those where mining cards.  So gamers might be the largest group but not the "majority of Nvidias customer"

 

And almost forgot. It's called LED, Light Emitting Diode.  Not LED lamp. However you can use LED to make a lamp.

[spartaman64]

3 hours ago, TheTechWizardThatNeedsHelp said:

I found it. A 2080 TI for sub 700.

 

i feel like thats still overpriced if the 3070 is really faster than it for 499

[EvilTelephone]

I'm really curious how a certain other YouTube tech channel had a 3080 in-hand for testing (though they did have to be careful not to show exact numbers). I would have expected LTT to have the same opportunity. Maybe LTT did and there was a logistical issue, of course I don't know the whole story. That's what makes me so curious!

 

Note I didn't mention the name of the other channel to be respectful of this platform and not sound like I'm shilling for them. That's not my intention.

[Helpful Tech Witch]

1 hour ago, spartaman64 said:

i feel like thats still overpriced if the 3070 is really faster than it for 499

This is pre 3070. 2080tis are selling for 1\3th 1\4th of the original cost, before the next gen comes out. A reference 2080ti costed 2100 pre RTX 3000, and could cost 3000+ for aftermarket cards.

[AdmiralKird]

Two weeks ago the average used 2080 Ti was going for $950. a week ago it fell to around $800. Now they're running around $660.

 

The market value of a 2080 Ti, if it's at parity with a 3070, "should" fall to $425 or so in a month (given the card's warranty time elapsed, potential outstanding life left on the card, more efficient power draw, general older architecture, future application and game development passing over the card for mainstream optimization, chance the seller has recently reflowed a dying card, etc). A used $650 at this time is still too high. $580 is more of a current realistic price if you want to gamble against Nvidia's performance claims. But it's better to just wait and see hard benchmarks before making any decisions. In any event, if the 3070 = 2080Ti, then we probably won't see the used market accurately price a 2080 Ti down to where it 'should be' in tangible value for several months if for no other reason than irrational belief the card holds extra value because of its original price point and time lag on proliferation of 3000 series news reaching the masses.

[ageekhere]

In australia on gumtree the 2080ti price is all over the place ranging from $700 to $2000 AUD. People are still trying to sell the 1080TI for $600 to $1000 AUD

[papajo]

11 hours ago, Kroon said:

Well there is where you are wrong.  During 2017 over 19% of all nVidia GPU where sold to data centers. Almost as much when't to their professional cards (Quadro, Titans etc).  Think it was just above 50% that when't to consumer grade graphics cards and quite large amount of those where mining cards.  So gamers might be the largest group but not the "majority of Nvidias customer"

 

Automotive/IP/Datacenter/Proffesional visualization COMBINED

 

dont even make half of the revenue of gaming alone. 

 

Besides that those are different seagments and we are not discussing prices e.g for the quadro card.

 

we are talking about consumer cards.