are mustangs dangerous?

[mr moose]

2 hours ago, straight_stewie said:

Happens all the time... ABS braking systems fail more frequently than non ABS systems as well, apparently.

By this government studies conclusion, drivers still need to learn threshold braking to make effective and safe use of ABS systems:

Well, by my logic, if you need to learn threshold breaking to safely and effectively use ABS, and you need to learn threshold braking to not use ABS, and using ABS actually decreases braking performance once you learn threshold braking, then ABS is entirely redundant, and possibly worse than not having it (which the study also shows, although that conclusion is not explicitly stated...)

Hence, my statement:

Is indeed supported by a government study into real traffic incidents, as per your initial request.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3649935/

That study does not conclude that people can brake better without ABS, it concludes that people need to learn how to drive.

It also concludes that ABS reduced collisions significantly even though the drivers said they thought they didn't know how to use the brakes effectively (which is no different from not having ABS, shit braking skill is shit regardless).

 

From your article:

Quote

The incidence of RTC with another vehicle due to brake failure was 50.3 (42.9-58.5) for 1000 non ABS vehicle-years and 30.0 (21.2-41.2) for 1000 ABS equipped vehicle-years. The difference was statistically significant after adjustment for the driver and vehicle's age and the daily driving time.

And:

 

Quote

While 61.1% of ABS vehicle drivers reported situations in which they believed the ABS had prevented a crash, 44.1% of them however, they did not know how to use ABS efficiently.

 

Other figures are that ABS results in:

 

13% reduction in fatal collisions with pedestrians.

12% reduction in collisions with other vehicles on wet roads

6% reduction in all crashes.

 

0% change in fatality because most road fatalities occur at speeds and in situations that no amount of skill or brake technology will ever change.

 

It seems that people benefit from it even without "special training".

 

And another article that concludes the same:

 

Quote

Numerous stopping tests by expert drivers at test tracks showed that four-wheel ABS is successful, especially on wet pavements, in improving overall vehicle stability during braking, preserving the ability to steer, and reducing stopping distances on many surfaces.

 

 

If expert drivers on controlled tracks can't brake better without ABS then I highly doubt many others could.

 

https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/811182

 

 

These studies do not prove people can brake better without ABS, they prove people don't drive safely to begin with.  Which is the very point I raised in this thread, the biggest danger on the road is the driver who often drives beyond their capabilities and beyond the capabilities of the car.

 

 

[TVwazhere]

6 hours ago, Letgomyleghoe said:

Is it not normal to learn in RWD cars? That’s what I learned in and always will prefer. Actually I take that back, some of the new 70-30 awd cars are fun.

It's normal to learn in whatever car you have. Most cars these days in the US are FWD's (your grandmothers civic, your neighbor's camery, your moderator's modified Ford Focus ST, etc) or a FWD/AWD SUV, so thats what people learn in. The only vehicles that are RWD as a standard are Trucks and Sports Cars (assuming they're not optioned with 4WD or AWD) 

[Froody129]

7 hours ago, straight_stewie said:

Happens all the time... ABS braking systems fail more frequently than non ABS systems as well, apparently.

By this government studies conclusion, drivers still need to learn threshold braking to make effective and safe use of ABS systems:

Well, by my logic, if you need to learn threshold breaking to safely and effectively use ABS, and you need to learn threshold braking to not use ABS, and using ABS actually decreases braking performance once you learn threshold braking, then ABS is entirely redundant, and possibly worse than not having it (which the study also shows, although that conclusion is not explicitly stated...)

Hence, my statement:

Is indeed supported by a government study into real traffic incidents, as per your initial request.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3649935/

The idea is to be able to brake effectively on your own, but braking on a track where you know where you're going to start braking, where the surface is clean and uniform and you are calm is very different to a child or an animal jumping in front of you. What ABS achieves is just to make that when someone panics and smashes the pedal (as they will) the car doesn't just lock up and slide. Having ABS doesn't mean you always smash the pedal, and it doesn't make you a bad driver. I don't see why you have an issue with a safety feature which doesn't affect people who are braking properly already.

[straight_stewie]

3 hours ago, Froody129 said:

Having ABS doesn't mean you always smash the pedal, and it doesn't make you a bad driver. I don't see why you have an issue with a safety feature which doesn't affect people who are braking properly already.

I have no issue with having ABS. I have an issue with @mr moose telling me that it's impossible that one can reliably, safely, and regularly achieve better braking performance without ABS: This is clearly not the case, even by his and your own admission, you both always qualify your replies by saying that ABS makes braking safer when you just smash the brake pedal. Well, the way around that is to, as @mr moose himself put it, stop shit braking.

 

3 hours ago, Froody129 said:

but braking on a track where you know where you're going to start braking,

I don't know about you, but I always know when I'm going to start braking: When my brain tells my foot to push the brake pedal. Maybe that doesn't apply to you. Anecdotally, I can't recall a single time where I did not see a potential accident coming on the roadways, and was able to plan to avoid it. The entire task of driving on a public road is to pay attention and know what's going on around you, ahead of you, and behind you at all times. That is the only thing with which you should be concerned while driving a vehicle on a public road.

 I can however recall many times where I didn't see the accident coming on the race track. Your mileage with that may vary.

[_VOIDNEXUS_]

I'm Actually pretty young and the only cars that I have ever driven are a honda city, ford ranger wildtrak, and a toyota fortuner but never crashed luckily. Do i need to expect like a throttle power difference from these cars to the mustang? I'm not a car guy/boy so please dont bash me XD

[Nine Tailed Fox]

lol thinking it's not user error

[bmx6454]

25 minutes ago, _VOIDNEXUS_ said:

I'm Actually pretty young and the only cars that I have ever driven are a honda city, ford ranger wildtrak, and a toyota fortuner but never crashed luckily. Do i need to expect like a throttle power difference from these cars to the mustang? I'm not a car guy/boy so please dont bash me XD

depends on if the one your getting is a v6 or v8, but either way, it's going to have a bit more power behind it. they are built to be more aggressive, unlike a honda city, or a truck. as far as all this abs debating, the only thing to know really is that abs is for when you panic and slam the brakes, as it is hard for the average driver to think clearly about their brake pressure when in a bad situation, and abs does it's best to take that out of the equation. you will be fine in a mustang, just don't try to go vin deisel on it until you get used to the car's power and handling. they are great cars, the video's you see are mostly people not understanding the diff/power/and weight ratio, and trying to show off. my neighbor had a mustang as his first car at 16, and was just fine. i have driven them a number of times without issue, just don't race it and you will be fine. if you wish to race them, or go heavy on the throttle, that's what a track is for.

[HM-2]

4 hours ago, straight_stewie said:

it's impossible that one can reliably, safely, and regularly achieve better braking performance without ABS: This is clearly not the case

Whilst this might be somewhat true in isolated cases, it isn't more widely, especially in the context of adverse weather conditions or when reacting to an actual hazard. "Beating" ABS in deceleration, in the perfect dry (what are effectively lab conditions), through repetition of the same exercise isn't really reflective of the real use case for ABS, which is primarily to stop people from locking the front wheels and therefore being unable to properly evade some kind of hazard (which you can hear and see the driver in the video on the previous page doing during his "successful" tests). I expect if he tried the same with an actual obstacle, like those Swedish "elk tests" that use an S-bend the car must navigate to test braking performance under evasive maneuvering, he'd not have the same "success", and I use that term fairly loosely. 

 

The point isn't really to decrease braking distances, though that's usually the net result with inexperienced drivers or in adverse weather where electronic sensors are much more effective at detecting slip than the meat behind the wheel, it's to permit the driver to maintain directional control of the car whilst they decelerate. Modern ABS systems are vastly more capable at identifying loss of grip than a human driver; even skilled drivers who think they're threshold or cadence braking tend to simply just intermittently dip in and out of locking the front wheels.

[mr moose]

40 minutes ago, HM-2 said:

even skilled drivers who think they're threshold or cadence braking tend to simply just intermittently dip in and out of locking the front wheels.

As the article I linked showed,  expert drivers doing their best to evaluate ABS didn't beat it for stopping distance on a race track (if they did it wasn't by enough to warrant a mention).

[HM-2]

4 minutes ago, mr moose said:

As the article I linked showed,  expert drivers doing their best to evaluate ABS didn't beat it for stopping distance on a race track (if they did it wasn't by enough to warrant a mention).

It's also worth noting as well that these days ABS is scarcely, if ever, seen in isolation. Even cars at the bottom end of the price spectrum incorporate dynamic brake force distribution which a human can't do with their right (or left) foot unless they've got a brake bias valve to madly twiddle with one hand that should definitely be on the wheel. Then you have all the other functions that work off the same slip sensors like traction and stability control to factor in.

[Jarsky]

2 hours ago, _VOIDNEXUS_ said:

I'm Actually pretty young and the only cars that I have ever driven are a honda city, ford ranger wildtrak, and a toyota fortuner but never crashed luckily. Do i need to expect like a throttle power difference from these cars to the mustang? I'm not a car guy/boy so please dont bash me XD

 

Thing to be careful with in FR cars (Front Engine, Rear Wheel) is to be easy on the throttle in corners, until you're past the apex of the bend. This is where people typically used to have problems with RWD cars, powering on to early causing loss of traction. Pretty used to it, my cars have been mostly FR including R31 Skyline, R32 Skyline, R33 Skyline, R34 Skyline, S14 Silvia, Mazda RX7, Toyota MR2, Corolla KE25 Rotary, BMW 535i, BMW 318is, etc...

 

Most modern cars these days though have TCS, ABS, ESC/DSC, etc....and are enabled by default which make it far less likely to lose traction under heavy breaking of when on moderate throttle in corners. 

[Monkey Dust]

On 6/22/2020 at 10:51 PM, mr moose said:

There are many things that most drivers (but especially new drivers) overlook,  age of tyre is one of them.  Tyres can look in great condition but by virtue of age (being on an older car) they can harden which results in less grip especially when wet.

In addition to old tyres, I'd also add cheap tyres. Knowing your tyres limitations is very important too. One tyre may give unholy levels of grip in the dry but very little grip when the road is wet, other are more balanced.

 

If the wheel alignment is out, that can make a car far twitchier, and wreck the tyres. It's worth getting checked on any car.

[_VOIDNEXUS_]

20 hours ago, Jarsky said:

 

Thing to be careful with in FR cars (Front Engine, Rear Wheel) is to be easy on the throttle in corners, until you're past the apex of the bend. This is where people typically used to have problems with RWD cars, powering on to early causing loss of traction. Pretty used to it, my cars have been mostly FR including R31 Skyline, R32 Skyline, R33 Skyline, R34 Skyline, S14 Silvia, Mazda RX7, Toyota MR2, Corolla KE25 Rotary, BMW 535i, BMW 318is, etc...

 

Most modern cars these days though have TCS, ABS, ESC/DSC, etc....and are enabled by default which make it far less likely to lose traction under heavy breaking of when on moderate throttle in corners. 

 

22 hours ago, bmx6454 said:

depends on if the one your getting is a v6 or v8, but either way, it's going to have a bit more power behind it. they are built to be more aggressive, unlike a honda city, or a truck. as far as all this abs debating, the only thing to know really is that abs is for when you panic and slam the brakes, as it is hard for the average driver to think clearly about their brake pressure when in a bad situation, and abs does it's best to take that out of the equation. you will be fine in a mustang, just don't try to go vin deisel on it until you get used to the car's power and handling. they are great cars, the video's you see are mostly people not understanding the diff/power/and weight ratio, and trying to show off. my neighbor had a mustang as his first car at 16, and was just fine. i have driven them a number of times without issue, just don't race it and you will be fine. if you wish to race them, or go heavy on the throttle, that's what a track is for.

Thanks!

[Zodiark1593]

On 6/23/2020 at 6:45 AM, Froody129 said:

The idea is to be able to brake effectively on your own, but braking on a track where you know where you're going to start braking, where the surface is clean and uniform and you are calm is very different to a child or an animal jumping in front of you. What ABS achieves is just to make that when someone panics and smashes the pedal (as they will) the car doesn't just lock up and slide. Having ABS doesn't mean you always smash the pedal, and it doesn't make you a bad driver. I don't see why you have an issue with a safety feature which doesn't affect people who are braking properly already.

Drove for awhile without ABS in my Volvo as the ABS module failed, and the price for a replacement was obscene. Was surprised that even ice troubled me little though. 
 

Never told my insurance company that detail though. Don’t have the Volvo anymore anyway. 

[dalekphalm]

On 6/22/2020 at 4:59 PM, _VOIDNEXUS_ said:

I've been thinkin of buying a mustang for a while now but the amount of mustang crqshing videos I see on yt scares me. Are they really flawed or are they all driver error? 

 

Mustangs are as safe as any other higher performance car. Not crazy like a 90’s first gem Dodge Viper but not as strictly controlled as something like an Audi R8. 
 

Don’t do anything stupid, and you’ll be fine. If you have no experience with a high performance car, start with a junker or something in the middle. 

 

It also really strongly depends on which Mustang from what generation and with that handling systems installed. 

[Jetfighter808]

On 6/23/2020 at 6:28 PM, straight_stewie said:

I have no issue with having ABS. I have an issue with @mr moose telling me that it's impossible that one can reliably, safely, and regularly achieve better braking performance without ABS: This is clearly not the case, even by his and your own admission, you both always qualify your replies by saying that ABS makes braking safer when you just smash the brake pedal. Well, the way around that is to, as @mr moose himself put it, stop shit braking.

 

I don't know about you, but I always know when I'm going to start braking: When my brain tells my foot to push the brake pedal. Maybe that doesn't apply to you. Anecdotally, I can't recall a single time where I did not see a potential accident coming on the roadways, and was able to plan to avoid it. The entire task of driving on a public road is to pay attention and know what's going on around you, ahead of you, and behind you at all times. That is the only thing with which you should be concerned while driving a vehicle on a public road.

 I can however recall many times where I didn't see the accident coming on the race track. Your mileage with that may vary.

Apologies for interrupting such a heated discussion but I would like to add my tuppenceworth.

 

The point of ABS is to allow the vast majority of drivers to achieve a reasonable emergency stop regardless of road conditions or driving abilities. I have no objections at @straight_stewie for saying that ABS can increase braking distances. That is true in certain situations sand and gravel where such increases are significant. What I do have issue with is saying:

Quote

but I always know when I'm going to start braking

And the assorted mish mash of an argument saying how this translates to shorter stopping distances in the real world. Now I don't know about where you live but here in the UK unless you're telepathic that ain't always the case. Car door opens on a narrow street? Farmer pulls out of his farm on a blind bend on a country lane? Twat doesn't know how to use a slip road and swings out in front of you for no reason? Deer crosses the road? 

 

And that is only the start of the issue. Threshold breaking relies on you knowing where the point of slip will occur. That's difficult on a racetrack where brake points are consistent, track and tire temps are broadly the same and the process of track evolution is relatively predictable. It's boarderline impossible on a country road in winter. Shaded bits behind hedges will still have black ice although the rest of the warm is dry, wet caddle grids will be offer the square root of diddly squat in terms of grip, mud flung from a passing tractor will hamper grip, a mish mash of different tarmac as the council looks behind the sofa for funds to build a slightly more usable road, off camber bits of road, pot holes that have been filled with water and are now completely frozen with ice, slippy white lines, slippy manhole covers, crests that will reduce max braking potential as the suspension decompresses,  troughs that will increase max braking  potential etc...

 

There is a reason why Rally Drivers who practice on a closed course still need pace notes like "off camber, grippy, slippy, caution, crest etc..."

 

Waze or Google maps doesn't really give you that kind of information unless there is some sort of Dirt partnership I don't know about. On the road I have mentioned above I can guarantee that an ABS car with a good driver will stop in a more controlled manner than one without ABS but with an excellent driver.

 

Hell, there was a reason why F1 before 94 had cars that had ABS as it offered an advantage. I'm not sure about you but I think Prost and Mansell can be classed as above average drivers and the FW15C did have ABS and managed to win 10 races. If ABS was as bad as you claim I think Newey would have just saved a couple of kilo's and ripped everything out. He didn't.

 

 

 

[straight_stewie]

4 hours ago, Jetfighter808 said:

unless you're telepathic that ain't always the case. Car door opens on a narrow street? Farmer pulls out of his farm on a blind bend on a country lane? Twat doesn't know how to use a slip road and swings out in front of you for no reason? Deer crosses the road? 

It's not telepathy, it's planning.

Although your point is correct in that "always" is an exaggeration, you can notice potential dangers and plan when and how they are going to be avoided. In many cases, that planning can be sufficient so as to avoid the case altogether, such as:

• Car door opens on a narrow street
• Twat doesn't know how to use a slip road and swings out in front of you for no reason

In particular are incidents which can usually be rendered non-problematic by being attentive and planning ahead.

 

Deer(e) are a little more difficult, but being attentive and planning ahead can still help avoid many such incidents: Slowing down around blind corners (but not so much that the slowing down is itself dangerous) can help avoid many such incidents.

 

4 hours ago, Jetfighter808 said:

there was a reason why F1 before 94 had cars that had ABS as it offered an advantage

I said in one of my earlier replies that there is a type of ABS that can outperform even the best human drivers. That type of ABS is overwhelmingly complicated and expensive, which has never been a problem for F1.

ABS as it exists in affordable cars is not predictive, it responds only after the tires have locked, even if the time that the tires were locked for is extremely short.

 

Beyond that, F1 cars have the benefit of having the ABS specifically tuned for the specific scenario the car finds itself in, and that adjustment is able to be changed dynamically as well (pretend I wrote that so it applies to the past). Production street cars must pick one profile for all scenarios and conditions, or else allow the user to select from a relatively small number of profiles.

 

4 hours ago, Jetfighter808 said:

There is a reason why Rally Drivers who practice on a closed course still need pace notes like "off camber, grippy, slippy, caution, crest etc..."

Yes. There is. It is because they are going SIGNIFICANTLY faster (in some cases more than 100 miles an hour faster) than anyone should ever be going on these roads unless they are in an active rally. They are also in a time trial competition, and so want to optimize as much as possible, which means going as fast as possible and braking as late as possible.

 

 

In any case, I think that although we may not all agree about whether or not a skilled, experienced, and practiced driver can reliably beat the ABS found in readily available consumer cars or not (which was the starting point of my entire claim), we can all agree that proper braking technique is paramount regardless.

[HM-2]

16 hours ago, straight_stewie said:

It's not telepathy, it's planning.

I don't mean to be dismissive, but this absolutely does not, and cannot, account for all circumstances. What you describe is the subconscious alertness that all most competent drivers exhibit, but it simply does not account for situations that cannot be reasonably foreseen or expected, or those where you may have taken an evaluative risk judgement and dismissed the likelihood of something happening.

 

Admittedly in circa half a million miles of driving across 15 years and two dozen countries, on both road and track, these are fairly rare occurrences, but they definitely exist. The failure of the towing hitch of a caravan in front of me at 70mph on a busy motorway, a lorry driver falling asleep at the wheel and ploughing through the central reservation in Spain, and the front drivers side wheel of the car in front completely detaching at a Castle Combe trackday are the particular examples burned into my memory but I'm sure there are plenty of others. 

 

Whilst I totally agree that drivers can and should learn the limits of their vehicle- that includes threshold braking and understanding limitations of grip in different scenarios- the net impact of ABS for the overwhelming majority of drivers in actual emergency situations is positive. 

16 hours ago, straight_stewie said:

ABS as it exists in affordable cars is not predictive, it responds only after the tires have locked

This isn't quite true, though it does rather depend how you define "lock". Most modern ABS systems work on the basis of wheel speed sensors reacting to discrepancies in rotational speed. They're able to sense loss of grip (slip) before a wheel "locks" in the sense that most drivers would recognise a wheel locking. 

 

17 hours ago, straight_stewie said:

we may not all agree about whether or not a skilled, experienced, and practiced driver can reliably beat the ABS found in readily available consumer cars or not

I would again put forward the notion that "beating" (IE stopping in a shorter distance in a controlled environment with no actual hazard) sort of misses the point...to the point of outright irrelevance.

[Arika]

The people that drive them are. which inherently brings up the cost to insure one. before buying, make sure you get a quote for insurance for it, that could end up being the deciding factor

[Zodiark1593]

15 hours ago, Arika S said:

The people that drive them are. which inherently brings up the cost to insure one. before buying, make sure you get a quote for insurance for it, that could end up being the deciding factor

Honestly, I’d prefer something lighter with a set of decent tires on it. Going WoT is expensive.