Educational system: School VS Degree

[FezBoy]

Just now, Trik'Stari said:

But learning the wrong things (like to think of yourself as a victim your entire life) cause severe psychological harm and are a net negative for all of society.

(Irrelevant to the main conversation, but,) By saying that the school system is wholly responsible for not learning what you need to and causing psychological harm, you are playing into the victim mentality.

[Trik'Stari]

36 minutes ago, FezBoy said:

(Irrelevant to the main conversation, but,) By saying that the school system is wholly responsible for not learning what you need to and causing psychological harm, you are playing into the victim mentality.

True, but I'm still right. They need to teach kids how to take care of their own household, how to balance a budget, how to not get into debt, how to pay their taxes, etc.

 

These subjects are not open for debate, they are things literally everyone needs to know how to do, and are not being taught (as far as I am aware). Instead, we let them get into massive amounts of debt, telling them college is super important, but not that what you actually take there is important. We neglect to tell them that certain degrees are essentially worthless and will only net you a job at Starbucks, whereas if they had taken a trade job or maybe a STEM job, they could make some actual money and be successful in life.

 

Also, I wasn't raised in the "you're a victim of something" era, it's just what I see from working at schools, it's what they are teaching.

[Nowak]

52 minutes ago, Trik'Stari said:

whereas if they had taken a trade job or maybe a STEM job, they could make some actual money and be successful in life.

eheh...

 

yeah, something I've learned is that you're not guaranteed to get that, especially if you live in an area where STEM jobs don't exist. And I live in a suburban area sandwiched between two big cities.

[mr moose]

5 hours ago, FezBoy said:

This is exactly what @wasab is saying they should do.  Teaching is not merely presenting the material, but ensuring that it is understood.  This is done by giving examples in class, answering questions in class, and providing office hours for additional help.  It is confirmed via tests.  

 

Y'all are arguing the same point at each other, yet still miscommunicating greatly.

I know he is saying that.  That's the problem, in big boy world you don't have teachers holding your hand checking in on you, After high school you  seek out help if you don't understand it or fail, no one is going to come to you when your grades aren't up to scratch and offer extra tuition or change the assignment. 

 

The reason most if not all professors don't ask everyone if you understand or need help is because it is expected you will seek that out yourself.  That is what I mean when I say students are responsible for their own education once they leave high school.

 

5 hours ago, wasab said:

How am I asking professor to check up on their students? I am asking them to teach the stuffs that are going to be needed on the assignments. I have no desire whatsoever to be hunted down or forced to have a conversation. You are not even understanding what I said. 

What else should they do,  their only job is to give you the required information and the rubric.  Everything else is on you, but you seem to think that is not true, so other than that what do you expect them to do,  you tried to argue they should demonstrate or get you to do it all and show you, but that is impractical, so then you tried to argue they should be better at giving you the information, to which I pointed out they already do that and if you are struggling to understand then you need to do something about that instead of bitch and whinge they don't know what they are doing.   Now you want them to teach better , which rests on your assertion that they are not giving you the right information and preventing you from discussing that with them.  I find that argument to be complete rubbish, I don't believe it for a second.   this leaves the only thing they could do is coddle you like they do in high school, make sure you understand and change up the curriculum to suit your abilities (which includes comprehension). 

 

To be honest, if this university you attend is so atrocious and doesn't give students the required information and refuses to see them (fighting you all the way as you put it), then where is the entire class of failures? why are the results not so poor the professor gets the sack.  Remember only successful students give universities good PR and credibility.

[WindirBear]

I'm a highschool drop out. I'm retarded I guess

[wasab]

7 hours ago, mr moose said:

What else should they do,  their only job is to give you the required information and the rubric.  Everything else is on you, but you seem to think that is not true, so other than that what do you expect them to do,  you tried to argue they should demonstrate or get you to do it all and show you, but that is impractical, 

Haha. Good teaching is impractical? I guess that makes learning impractical. You are setting an extreamly low bars for professors arent you?

 

7 hours ago, mr moose said:

To be honest, if this university you attend is so atrocious and doesn't give students the required information and refuses to see them (fighting you all the way as you put it), then where is the entire class of failures? why are the results not so poor the professor gets the sack.  Remember only successful students give universities good PR and credibility.

Because the class grades on a curve with mean gets a B-, one standard deviation above the means getting As, and two deviation below end up flanking. The professor has tenured and is a research rock star. Students got nothing out of the course other than confusion and a semester long frustration trying to understand the materials. It isn't that complicated. 

 

[Real_PhillBert]

7 hours ago, WindirBear said:

I'm a highschool drop out. I'm retarded I guess

I certainly wouldn't say that. 

 

I have an engineering degree, and a scary amount of the people I graduated with have absolutely no business designing anything more important than a coffee table coaster. 

 

I honestly believe that success in modern education systems is completely disconnected from intelligence. 

[Guest]

Oh my... So many words thrown around... Some I do agree, and some I don't ^o^

 

I think that there is primarily a basic misconception... Maybe due to how Universities are "organized" in the US...

Would you think that because you are paying, an awful LOT of money at that, you are DUE a diploma at the end?

 

At some point I heard it said, repeated, thrown around 3 words: education, intelligence and smart.

Can we start here?

Education is the sum of knowledge you have available / at your disposal to acquire organized around the values conveyed by a country.

Intelligence is how much you and how efficiently you will be able to acquire this knowledge

Smart is how you will be able to articulate this acquired knowledge in order to get something "new" and original in order to further your goal and solve a problem.

 

Education

Then you have "formal", "informal" and "self" education.

OP is clearly talking of the 1st and in part of the 3rd one.

Formal education adheres to curricula which are determined by the policies decided by governement or school boards of Education, etc. That's how you can get some insane ideas being taught in (high-)schools like "intelligent design" and "creationism" in some countries or states. That's where ideology stomps heavily on the content. And that is true of ANY country in the world. Just look at how different events of history are being taught (point of views, etc.). But we're not here to talk about that, are we?

 

Intelligence

One has no control over that aspect of one self. This is how your brain is utterly wired since in-utero and so many studies have tried to find out what is the magic recipe to get the new Einstein.

It can be measured, to an extent, it can be nurtured, encouraged but it can not be created out of thin air.

And all the pseudo intelligence drugs you can find on the market are just lies and all they do is just enhance your concentration, certainly not making you smarter.

 

Smart...

You can be "smart" without being overly intelligent.

 

What does all that have to do with quality of Education? Everything!

 

Then there is also how you are taught to process information in order to acquire knowledge. In high-school you get a lot of tutoring and have a teacher really present to lead you. And the more you go up in classes the less they are present/available to "feed you" knowledge and the more you are expected to acquire knowledge by yourself under guidance.

In University? Professors are there to give you brut knowledge, to guide you into subjects and give some extra insight into a subject. It is YOUR responsability to have acquired the basic curricula needed to understand what is discussed/presented/taught in class or amphitheater. And if you have troubles, as @mr moose  said it is expected of you to ask for more information and for some guidance. Meaning that you are to show that you are able to see where you're lacking and to make the step to ask your "elders" for help.

 

University is a drastic funnel. Remember that the 1st year you can have up to 300-400 students in the 1st year (sometimes even more) and the more you go up in the years of education the less students you have, until doctorate and post-doctorate where you can count the students sometimes on both hands.
And I'm not even talking about the inequity of the Higher Education system in the US (or somewhere else). One would think that a country would consider it's citizen as the best ressource for the country advancement and would want their brightest minds to be educated. Instead their best system of education is reserved to those who can pay the most, almost never to those who can use it the best. But that is my own personal opinion.

It is also a place where you're going to be asked to show and demonstrate that you are able to and going to stick to the mould. In some ways I think that this is the life and death of modern education system. And perhaps also it's big lie.

Higher education is NOT going to give you a higher salary or a better position. Unless you have a very precise and in-demand expertise that very few others have, it's who you are socially, your connections that is going to provide you that.

Unfortunately, nepotism and co-opting still have bright futures ahead of them.

 

In fact I always thought that by looking at how one country's education system is organized you can see what the  profound values of the country are.

Edited October 8, 2019 by Guest
typos

[mr moose]

7 hours ago, wasab said:

Haha. Good teaching is impractical? I guess that makes learning impractical. You are setting an extreamly low bars for professors arent you?

NO, asking your professor to explain everything is impractical, that is why they assign reading and resources.   Don't try to change what you are expecting of them.

 

7 hours ago, wasab said:

Because the class grades on a curve with mean gets a B-, one standard deviation above the means getting As, and two deviation below end up flanking. The professor has tenured and is a research rock star. Students got nothing out of the course other than confusion and a semester long frustration trying to understand the materials. It isn't that complicated. 

 

 

In science you don't get graded on how well everyone else did, you get graded on how well you understand the science.  If your knowledge is poor so are your grades.

 

Just one I pulled from google:

https://physics.unc.edu/undergraduate-program/course-offerings/labs/grading/

 

40% is tied to your data and results, That means if you can't demonstrate a understanding of what you did and what the data means then you fail.  Even if the rest of the class does extremely well.

[remo]

I believe schools should push trade schools as much as they push going to college.

[Beef Boss]

The education system makes information available to us, it's up to us whether we want to use it or not.

 

My high school was crap, but since I was a kid I've had a dying need to know everything. From the solar systems to atomical structures, networking strategies/ technologies and engeering principles everything interests me so I'd be damned if I'd let a school get in the way of my education.

 

You make yourself dumb or smart, that's how it is-greed for knowledge. Knowledge is power and power is money. Unlike most people who are indifferent to things I seek to know everything that is known.  So be different in that you want to apply yourselves where others won't or don't, and give it your all- all the time.

[spartaman64]

my college experience had been sort of BS. the stuff on the math exams had nothing to do with what the professor taught or with whats in the textbook so 70% of the students in the class are failing and then the math department head stepped in and had the professor administer a test that the department head wrote and it would replace our 3 lowest exam scores. that test was super easy and i got an 100 and the average was like a 87%.

 

my chem class was similar but the exam questions were just much harder than the ones the professor taught and what was in the textbook so at the end the professor said if our final exam score is higher than our current grade in the class it will count for 100% of our grade and he told us to come to the SI session and he will lead it instead of a TA. and then during the SI session he literally went through every question on the final exam and altered it a bit and showed on the blackboard how to do it and he said we are allowed to record it so be basically stopped just barely short of just telling us all the answers

 

so what i got is college professors try to make us suffer and have anxiety and then at the end they do some ass pull to boost our grade so the university dont come to ask them what is going on.

 

but there where some interesting classes like the international relations class. the professor wrote the textbook so he told us not to bother buying it if we dont want and hes going to provide the pdfs online and he said what are they going to do sue me? i wrote the book. and he tells us the funniest and craziest stories about when he worked as a diplomat. we are 60% sure that he made up most of them but who cares they are still entertaining 

[wasab]

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

NO, asking your professor to explain everything is impractical, that is why they assign reading and resources.   Don't try to change what you are expecting of them.

Yeah? Showing a couple example of chain rule or u substitution like in say calculus course is too impractical? Really?

 

Don't try changing a professors responsibility and defend a professors who can't teach. Shifting blames makes no sense. My major program has a couple notorius weed out freshmen classes. If students are struggling at upper levels, their work ethics and college prepareness are rarely to blame. 

 

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

In science you don't get graded on how well everyone else did, you get graded on how well you understand the science.  If your knowledge is poor so are your grades.

 

Just one I pulled from google:

https://physics.unc.edu/undergraduate-program/course-offerings/labs/grading/

 

40% is tied to your data and results, That means if you can't demonstrate a understanding of what you did and what the data means then you fail.  Even if the rest of the class does extremely well.

In college, instructor is the only person who decides how competent their students are understanding the materials. You think there is a standardized nation wide tests that evaluate a college students score? The grading on the syllabus can be 50% on quiz and 50% on homework. Or it can be 0% on homeworks and 100% all on exams. It can be curve or uncurve. There is no such thing as everyone are evaluated and assign letter grade based on a common grading scheme. You can very much graudate without knowing the stuffs you need, especially if professor assigns meaningless assignments or do poor lecture. 

 

Seriously, have you attend college? If so what year and what country? It certainly isn't how that works in the USA. 

[captain_to_fire]

On 10/4/2019 at 10:13 PM, Wolfycapt said:

and although college offer more specific information ( art, medical. engineer) compare to generalized information in highschool. but still it just using same method with basic theory and little practice. 

You can't be a a good doctor if all you've got is read and not put it into practice. That's why last year of med school is just hospital rotation, then after boards it will be residency and fellowship.

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, wasab said:

Don't try changing a professors responsibility and defend a professors who can't teach. Shifting blames makes no sense. My major program has a couple notorius weed out freshmen classes. If students are struggling at upper levels, their work ethics and college prepareness are rarely to blame. 

 

In college, instructor is the only person who decides how competent their students are understanding the materials. You think there is a standardized nation wide tests to that evaluate a college students score? The grading on the syllabus can be 50% on quiz and 50% on homework. Or it can be 0% on homeworks and 100% all on exams. It can be curve or uncurve. There is no such thing everyone are evualte and assign letter grade based on a common grading scheme. You can very much graudate without knowing the stuffs you need, especially if professor assigns meaningless assignments or do poor lecture. 

 

Seriously, have you attend college? If so what year and what country? It certainly isn't how that works in the USA. 

Are you for real,  you literally said:

 

Quote

 

Compared that to my high school physics teacher who teach the class by solving one physics equation after another.

 

What I see effective teaching is simple, watch someone how to do it, then try doing it and practicing on your own.

 

 

You are literally  asking for your lecturer/professor to demonstrate every single equation and activity,  When I point out why that is not practical you try to accuse me of changing the responsibility of the professor/shifting the blame.  Please try harder to understand what is being said here as I have not changed anything nor have I tried to shift the blame.   You are responsible for our education, not the professor.  He gives you the resources needing to attain your degree/phd or whatever you are doing, he does not hold your hand like they do in high school.

 

It's not complicated and I don't know why you are so adamant that it should be different other than you are struggling with it.

 

 

[wasab]

17 minutes ago, mr moose said:

You are responsible for our education, not the professor.  

Since when does it become my responsibility that I get taught all the things I needed to know? You are not even reading what you are posting. 

 

17 minutes ago, mr moose said:

He gives you the resources needing to attain your degree/phd or whatever you are doing, he does not hold your hand like they do in high school.

Okay, I will give you a pilots manual to fly a Boeing 737. Obviously it's much more pratical than a flight instructor demonstrating and showing you how. Go fly a commerical jet. 

[spartaman64]

15 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Are you for real,  you literally said:

 

 

You are literally  asking for your lecturer/professor to demonstrate every single equation and activity,  When I point out why that is not practical you try to accuse me of changing the responsibility of the professor/shifting the blame.  Please try harder to understand what is being said here as I have not changed anything nor have I tried to shift the blame.   You are responsible for our education, not the professor.  He gives you the resources needing to attain your degree/phd or whatever you are doing, he does not hold your hand like they do in high school.

 

It's not complicated and I don't know why you are so adamant that it should be different other than you are struggling with it.

 

 

 

1 minute ago, wasab said:

Since when does it become my responsibility that I get taught all the things I needed to know? You are not even reading what you posting. 

 

Okay, I will give you a pilots manual to fly a Boeing 737. Obviously it's much more pratical than a flight instructor demonstrating and showing you how. Go flight a commerical jet. 

to me it depends on how advanced the class is. if its a general or beginning class then the professor should handle most of the guidance but on more advanced classes its usually up to the student to research and learn what they dont know themselves or find out what they dont know and ask the professor questions

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, wasab said:

Since when does it become my responsibility that I get taught all the things I needed to know? You are not even reading what you posting. 

This has been explained to you several times now. 

 

7 hours ago, Cora_Lie said:

In University? Professors are there to give you brut knowledge, to guide you into subjects and give some extra insight into a subject. It is YOUR responsability to have acquired the basic curricula needed to understand what is discussed/presented/taught in class or amphitheater. And if you have troubles, as @mr moose  said it is expected of you to ask for more information and for some guidance. Meaning that you are to show that you are able to see where you're lacking and to make the step to ask your "elders" for help.

 

 

17 hours ago, mr moose said:

What else should they do,  their only job is to give you the required information and the rubric.  Everything else is on you, but you seem to think that is not true,

 

I don't know how much more basically this can be said for you to understand it.  So please stop misrepresenting me and arguing stuff I never said.

 

 

2 minutes ago, wasab said:

Okay, I will give you a pilots manual to fly a Boeing 737. Obviously it's much more pratical than a flight instructor demonstrating and showing you how. Go flight a commerical jet. 

 

Now you are being silly.   It seems instead of being able to refute what I said you have to resort to stupid extremes that bare no relevance to this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

,

[wasab]

41 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Now you are being silly.   It seems instead of being able to refute what I said you have to resort to stupid extremes that bare no relevance to this.

Yeah? So flight school isn't education, flight manual isn't information/instruction, flight instructor isn't teaching, and flight students are not learner? I've seen you do this countless times. Simply calling what others said as irrelevant and stupid when you see something inconvenient and unable to refute. 

 

48 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

I don't know how much more basically this can be said for you to understand it.  So please stop misrepresenting me and arguing stuff I never said.

 

their only job is to give you the required information and the rubric.  Everything else is on you

Their job is to teach. I've said this many times. They aren't teaching, I've said this many times. You are telling me professor can just point you to Google and say he has done enough. You are hilarious. 

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, wasab said:

Yeah? So flight school isn't education, flight manual isn't information/instruction, flight instructor isn't teaching, and flight students are not learner? I've seen you do this countless times. Simply calling what others said as irrelevant and stupid when you see something inconvenient and unable to refute. 

More silliness I have addressed, even in the post your quoted, at this point you are just trolling.

 

 

You say this as if anyone with half a brain would believe it:

1 hour ago, wasab said:

. You are telling me professor can just point you to Google and say he has done enough.

 

 

And try to conclude this:

1 hour ago, wasab said:

You are hilarious. 

Given I have raised several issues with your claims that you haven't been able to defend explains why you are no longer discussing the topic but resorting to insults instead.

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, wasab said:

Yeah? So flight school isn't education, flight manual isn't information/instruction, flight instructor isn't teaching, and flight students are not learner? I've seen you do this countless times. Simply calling what others said as irrelevant and stupid when you see something inconvenient and unable to refute. 

Excuse me? You can't seriously compare flight school and college level education!

It would be like saying that "hydroponic gardening" and "engineering a new fission powered vacumm cleaner" are one and same.

 

Quote

 

Their job is to teach. I've said this many times. They aren't teaching, I've said this many times. You are telling me professor can just point you to Google and say he has done enough. You are hilarious. 

Their job is NOT to take you by hand and teach you how to walk on your two feet. That was your high-school teachers job.

Their job is to discuss with you and give you more in-depth view on the things your read FIRST in the books you've been asked to read and understand for the global course.
Their job, if they are teaching physics or biology, is to give you the opportunity to manipulate, to experiment some of the "theories" as taught in class.

Their job in college is NOT to teach you HOW to learn, this is something that you are supposed to have learnt in high-school.

 

I still remember when I was in 1st year in college some professors decided to have the students undergo a dictation test to determine who among the 400 hundred present in the amphitheater needed to get some spelling and grammar supplementary courses because... almost 30% of the students couldn't write their assignements without making way too many mistakes. And that just wouldn't do at college level education!

 

And remember I said that University level Education is a brutal funnel discriminatory process! So... If you can't keep up with the process then... You need either to acquire the skills to be able to keep up or to change your career expectations.

I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying that's how it works.

[wasab]

4 hours ago, Cora_Lie said:

Excuse me? You can't seriously compare flight school and college level education!

It would be like saying that "hydroponic gardening" and "engineering a new fission powered vacumm cleaner" are one and same.

Teaching is one and the same. Principles of teaching doesn't fly out the windows just because your subjects vary from math to physics to cooking or flying an airplane. It is the same, you watch others how to do and then do it yourself. 

4 hours ago, Cora_Lie said:

 

Their job in college is NOT to teach you HOW to learn, this is something that you are supposed to have learnt in high-school.

 

Funny, I think I said something similar but you obviously missed it 

I suggest you reread all my posts, starting with my first response to @mr moose

 

[wasab]

8 hours ago, mr moose said:

More silliness I have addressed, even in the post your quoted, at this point you are just trolling.

Calling your opponent trolls. How classic. 

 

8 hours ago, mr moose said:

You say this as if anyone with half a brain would believe it:

Funny. I said my professor never showed examples and another professor told me everything needed for the assignment are to be Google, they won't be covered in lecture. 

 

You reply with 

4 hours ago, Cora_Lie said:

their only job is to give you the required information and the rubric.  Everything else is on you

Obviously Googling online should be how college classes ought to be taught. You are such a genius. 

 

8 hours ago, mr moose said:

 

Given I have raised several issues with your claims that you haven't been able to defend explains why you are no longer discussing the topic but resorting to insults instead.

I find your claim hilarious. Is that too much for you? Oh, I'm so sorry. Maybe I ought to be more politically correct and say your comments made me rolls my eyes and giggle.

[mr moose]

26 minutes ago, wasab said:

Calling your opponent trolls. How classic. 

If you are just going to keep arguing that I am saying something different to what I have clearly explained to you then yes, that is classic trolling. 

 

26 minutes ago, wasab said:

Funny. I said my professor never showed examples and another professor told me everything needed for the assignment are to be Google, they won't be covered in lecture. 

And I said that's BS, I refuse to believe any lecturer told you to find everything in google.

 

26 minutes ago, wasab said:

You reply with 

Obviously Googling online should be how college classes ought to be taught. You are such a genius. 

And you are resorting back to insults.  No one ever said anything about using google except you.  Stop trying to turn your defunct arguments on me.

 

26 minutes ago, wasab said:

I find your claim hilarious. Is that too much for you? Oh, I'm so sorry. Maybe I ought to be more politically correct and say your comments made me rolls my eyes and giggle.

It's just basic trollish behavior to say stupid things like that.

 

And this is the second or third time you've had to resort to this type of response because your previous claims have fallen flat.  If aren't going to address what I said or can't refute what I said then stop posting,  continuing with personal insults and trollish behavior is basically the last resort of a failed argument.

[Akira Shimazu]

College or University System and Experienced.

 

this topic derived from Educational System degree.

 

i've noticed several people talking and giving opinion about whether Educational system works, at school or college/uni level from previous thread. and i really want to know more about how you guys perceived this educational system. such like experienced, how the lecturer interact, schedule, difficulties, how is difference compare to school. everything that you guys want to share about Education System.

 

In my own experienced. there no big differences between high-school and College level. in my environment most of school and uni program works very simple and similiar. basically, the teacher or lecturer comes in having presentation that they already quoted from one book with little to no further explanation and we write it down to memorized it. then we write it down at exam. just come, read presentation, basic question, write and memorized. and leave. that it. 

on the outside of system, speaking about environment only. people in my UNI and previous High school were pretty much Teacher pet. not here to judge but, from where i lived. we have a certain culture that said " teacher o r lecturer are absolute" very well known tradition. and the problem itself is not only derived from Society moral value Itself. but here, people dislikes to read or try to gathered information or at least thinking. so it is making the whole teacher and lecturer words sounds like Amazing for them. which most of their words are crap or trivial.

 

In short. Bad system. unprofessional educator. stupid value that makes the teacher and lecturer as god. and the society as student lack of thinking or reading.