Educational system: School VS Degree

[Akira Shimazu]

i really want to know about what is your opinion about the education system. especially when a person graduated from high school to University or college to get Degree. because it seems that even college teaching method is similar to the highschool method. where the lecturer just quoted a words from internet or books that he/she already read before. then place it to powerpoint. dont you think is better to read the book directly instead of waiting for the lecturer to tell us?, and what i have seen in my environment, it seems that many of them just memorized and quoted words from book but they do not actually understand itself. so basically the teacher and the lecturer memorized and tell us to memorized what they memorized. and although college offer more specific information ( art, medical. engineer) compare to generalized information in highschool. but still it just using same method with basic theory and little practice. 

 

*note this is what i have observe in my environtment

 

my point its does education system even makes us smart?

[seon123]

No one is there to hold your hand and make sure you know everything for your exam. Some don't look at the books at all, and some don't go to any lectures. Just make sure you know everything you need in order to do well on any exams. If you do a group project, don't be an A-hull, show up and do your part or more. 

[lewdicrous]

Many lecturers, from my experience, will add extra information during the lecture that you wouldn't find in the book or the notes, then you get questions based on those bits of information, so if you weren't paying attention in class or you didn't bother going in the first place, then you wouldn't know how to answer said questions.

 

Also, a bit of advice, a lot of people just memorize the information present in the notes/powerpoint then struggle to answer the questions in the exam, don't do that, understanding what you're studying is better than memorizing, cause then you'll know how to utilize that information and mold it in useful ways to extract the answers to tricky questions.

[Akira Shimazu]

54 minutes ago, -Kriss- said:

Tbh i rarely read the books in my bachelor degree. Normally i just go though the powerpoints and pay attention in class.

 

Ideally you should use both the book and the lecturer. Its more about rephasing and being able to ask questions during lectures.

 

15 minutes ago, lewdicrous said:

Many lecturers, from my experience, will add extra information during the lecture that you wouldn't find in the book or the notes, then you get questions based on those bits of information, so if you weren't paying attention in class or you didn't bother going in the first place, then you wouldn't know how to answer said questions.

 

Also, a bit of advice, a lot of people just memorize the information present in the notes/powerpoint then struggle to answer the questions in the exam, don't do that, understanding what you're studying is better than memorizing, cause then you'll know how to utilize that information and mold it in useful ways to extract the answers to tricky questions.

 

29 minutes ago, seon123 said:

No one is there to hold your hand and make sure you know everything for your exam. Some don't look at the books at all, and some don't go to any lectures. Just make sure you know everything you need in order to do well on any exams. If you do a group project, don't be an A-hull, show up and do your part or more. 

 

 

i meant like Does the school and toehrs is kinda useless? you can just go buy a book or read from internet. what the point of school anyway?.

[lewdicrous]

1 minute ago, Wolfycapt said:

i meant like Does the school and toehrs is kinda useless? you can just go buy a book or read from internet. what the point of school anyway?.

Not everything that comes in the book gets into the test, not everything that is said in class comes from the book.

[bimmerman]

Pre-university schooling exists to provide everyone with a baseline competency in a variety of subjects. This is foundational knowledge. It is not intended to be anything beyond the basics in every field, maybe maybe maybe extending to first year introductory college courses like calc/physics.

 

Undergraduate University/College exists to provide a framework of courses for you to gain increasingly specialized technical knowledge in one or more specific interest areas. Sometimes this is professional-track, sometimes this is not. What it isn't is a rote 'do this and get degree' formula, you must learn by doing not by passively listening to lectures or memorizing. Graduating with an undergraduate degree signifies you are competent, knowledgeable, and skilled in the basics of field XYZ.

 

Graduate school exists to synthesize all that foundational knowledge of K-12, the core of your field of interest from your BS/BA, as well as high level specialist courses taught by the experts in the field you are interested in (aka your PI/thesis committee) to perform original research to contribute to the field.

 

Another way to put it-- high school graduate doesn't know what he doesn't know. Undergrad graduate knows what he doesn't know and knows how to learn. Grad graduate knows one or two subjects, very deeply, and is skilled at figuring out what he doesn't know and, often, can then teach it.

[mr moose]

7 hours ago, Wolfycapt said:

my point its does education system even makes us smart?

No, the education system (for better or worse) can only give you the information.  It is highly dependent on the individual as to how far they go.  I.E A person of lower intelligence will struggle with the information regardless how they receive it, a person with higher intelligence will succeed and a person with intelligence and wisdom will be able to elevate above their learning.

[SaviorSix]

I had about ten years tech experience and it didn't get me a job in the industry. I went to college, got a two year degree, and landed a job with the government a month and a half later. 

Does a degree make you smart? No, experience does. I was on autopilot the entire time I was in college because most of it I already had experience with. 

[dalekphalm]

20 hours ago, Wolfycapt said:

i meant like Does the school and toehrs is kinda useless? you can just go buy a book or read from internet. what the point of school anyway?.

Buying a book off the internet and reading it does not make you an expert. Best learn that now, so that you don't turn into one of those idiot assholes that think they know everything because "they read about it online".

 

Yes, it's possible to self teach yourself something to such a degree that you actually do become an expert. But those people are like winning the lottery. Sure it happens, but it's incredibly unlikely.

 

Most people who self educate, are actually woefully uninformed, but also egotistical and think they're far more informed on the subject then they really are.

 

Teachers (both in High School, and profs in College/University) are highly invaluable tools. Yeah, some of them are morons just cruising through a job with minimal effort (these people exist in every industry) - but most are well informed in the subject they are teaching - often being legit experts in the field. One thing above all else: If there's something in the book you don't understand, you can ask them about it.

 

School is to teach you about education in general - about learning styles - about how to properly do independent research (eg: verified sources, etc), among many other things.

 

If you think school is pointless, you're probably a young kid. If you're not a young kid, then perhaps you could elaborate as to why you think school is pointless.

[straight_stewie]

On 10/4/2019 at 9:13 AM, Wolfycapt said:

because it seems that even college teaching method is similar to the highschool method.

That depends on three primary factors:

1. Your chosen degree
2. The quality of your highschool
3. The quality of your university/college

Let me expand on that:

• Chosen Degree: Some majors will be more "hands on" while others will be more "lecture time". For that matter, some subjects will be more hands on while others will be more lecture time. Let us compare a math class to a land surveying class: The first will almost certainly be entirely lecture time with a fair amount of homework. The latter will be a good mix of lecture time and field time (time spent actually conducting land surveys under the supervision of a professor).
  
  The degree plays a factor in this because some degrees will have a higher ratio of "hands on" classes to "lecture classes". Think about it, how hands on can a Mathematics major be compared to a Civil Engineering major? For the math degree, "hands on" can only mean one thing: Doing math. For the Civil Engineering major, "hands on" can mean anything from conducting soil hardness tests, to making floating canoes out of concrete.
• Highschool quality: It should be obvious that a higher quality highschool will be able to employ teaching methods that more closely match higher quality universities. Stated differently: The higher quality the highschool is, the closer it's teaching methods will be to that of university. The lower quality the highschool is, the further away from the best teaching methods your classes will be.
  
  Another thing to consider here is the subject matter that one learns in highschool. By and large, the subjects one learns in highschool can only be taught by lecture: Things like Math, History, English... Good highschools still have some hands on learning, either by "shop classes" or by things like chemistry or physics labs.
• University Quality: This should be obvious as well: The more money a university has, the better teaching methods and teachers it will be able to employ. I don't think that this subject needs much more elaboration.

 

In shorter words, I would argue that if you went to a good highschool, and a crappy college, or picked a basic degree, then yes: Your experiences in both are likely to be very similar.

[Tamesh16]

On 10/4/2019 at 11:36 AM, -Kriss- said:

Tbh i rarely read the books in my bachelor degree

same, its mainly because my lecturers are experienced chemical engineers, 

compared to high school i could have just read a book and passed my exams 

college i actually need my lecturers help 

because books for fluid dynamics are quite hard to interpret 

[Akira Shimazu]

3 hours ago, straight_stewie said:

That depends on three primary factors:

1. Your chosen degree
2. The quality of your highschool
3. The quality of your university/college

Let me expand on that:

• Chosen Degree: Some majors will be more "hands on" while others will be more "lecture time". For that matter, some subjects will be more hands on while others will be more lecture time. Let us compare a math class to a land surveying class: The first will almost certainly be entirely lecture time with a fair amount of homework. The latter will be a good mix of lecture time and field time (time spent actually conducting land surveys under the supervision of a professor).
  
  The degree plays a factor in this because some degrees will have a higher ratio of "hands on" classes to "lecture classes". Think about it, how hands on can a Mathematics major be compared to a Civil Engineering major? For the math degree, "hands on" can only mean one thing: Doing math. For the Civil Engineering major, "hands on" can mean anything from conducting soil hardness tests, to making floating canoes out of concrete.
• Highschool quality: It should be obvious that a higher quality highschool will be able to employ teaching methods that more closely match higher quality universities. Stated differently: The higher quality the highschool is, the closer it's teaching methods will be to that of university. The lower quality the highschool is, the further away from the best teaching methods your classes will be.
  
  Another thing to consider here is the subject matter that one learns in highschool. By and large, the subjects one learns in highschool can only be taught by lecture: Things like Math, History, English... Good highschools still have some hands on learning, either by "shop classes" or by things like chemistry or physics labs.
• University Quality: This should be obvious as well: The more money a university has, the better teaching methods and teachers it will be able to employ. I don't think that this subject needs much more elaboration.

 

In shorter words, I would argue that if you went to a good highschool, and a crappy college, or picked a basic degree, then yes: Your experiences in both are likely to be very similar.

gues crappy college then lol. can u tell me more about your own experienced?

[Akira Shimazu]

2 hours ago, Tamesh16 said:

same, its mainly because my lecturers are experienced chemical engineers, 

compared to high school i could have just read a book and passed my exams 

college i actually need my lecturers help 

because books for fluid dynamics are quite hard to interpret 

my lecturer just explained in powerpoint from books. so... its kinda easy here as long as you did mark your absent or Homework

[wasab]

On 10/4/2019 at 10:13 AM, Wolfycapt said:

i really want to know about what is your opinion about the education system. especially when a person graduated from high school to University or college to get Degree. because it seems that even college teaching method is similar to the highschool method. where the lecturer just quoted a words from internet or books that he/she already read before. then place it to powerpoint. dont you think is better to read the book directly instead of waiting for the lecturer to tell us?, and what i have seen in my environment, it seems that many of them just memorized and quoted words from book but they do not actually understand itself. so basically the teacher and the lecturer memorized and tell us to memorized what they memorized. and although college offer more specific information ( art, medical. engineer) compare to generalized information in highschool. but still it just using same method with basic theory and little practice. 

 

*note this is what i have observe in my environtment

 

my point its does education system even makes us smart?

Heck no. College is self studying 90% of the time. 

 

High school is 50/50. Teacher helps you understand the material 50% and then you reinforce by practicing problems and homework the other 50%. 

 

College is mostly self study. You learn jackshit in lectures. At least that's how it is for stem classes. 

[The Torrent]

On 10/4/2019 at 3:13 PM, Wolfycapt said:

my point its does education system even makes us smart?

No not designed to just a test of maximum academic potential to stick a price on people lives works beautifully.

 

[wasab]

On 10/4/2019 at 5:48 PM, mr moose said:

No, the education system (for better or worse) can only give you the information.  It is highly dependent on the individual as to how far they go.  I.E A person of lower intelligence will struggle with the information regardless how they receive it, a person with higher intelligence will succeed and a person with intelligence and wisdom will be able to elevate above their learning.

Quality of the educators make a huge impacts regardless of the intelligence of the students. Both "smart" and "dumb" people will have better learning outcomes from better teachers and better teaching. 

 

The difference between my AP physics teacher(who happened to be the most popular teacher in my high school) and that of my college equivalent profesors is night and day. I learned so much more from the former. 

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, wasab said:

Quality of the educators make a huge impacts regardless of the intelligence of the students. Both "smart" and "dumb" people will have better learning outcomes from better teachers and better teaching. 

I don;t know what Universities are like over there, but here they don't really teach.  They lecture, they giver you the rubrik and they tell you what you have to do.  That's it, everything else is on you.

 

1 hour ago, wasab said:

The difference between my AP physics teacher(who happened to be the most popular teacher in my high school) and that of my college equivalent profesors is night and day. I learned so much more from the former. 

That's because in college they don't coddle you nor tailor your assessments to your particular personality, you are expected to know how to learn and how to ask for help or clarification.  University is adult education.  High school is for children.

[wasab]

18 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 University is adult education.  High school is for children.

And I learned college level AP courses better in high school as "children" than in college as an adult. What do you make of that?

 

And your claim that professor are not responsible for their students learning outcomes is riddiculous. There is a reason sites like ratemyprofessor.com exists. The quality of your instructor make a great difference. I know many students, myself included, who would go great length to be place in a waitlist for the most popular professor in my university. 

 

College are indeed very much self driven learning but some professor helps you more in this regard while others just seem to want to fight you in every way. 

[mr moose]

6 minutes ago, wasab said:

And I learned college level AP courses better in high school as "children" than in college as an adult. What do you make of that?

Nothing.  I see no relevance to what I claimed.  In high school the application of the curriculum and testing criteria is flexible,  once you get to University it usually no longer is.  In University you are expected to look after yourself while at high school you are guided (whether you think you're being guided or not).

 

Quote

And your claim that professor are not responsible for their students learning outcomes is riddiculous. There is a reason sites like ratemyprofessor.com exists. The quality of your instructor make a great difference. I know many students, myself included, who would go great length to be place in a waitlist for the most popular professor in my university. 

That's nice, but what I said is still true,  they don't have to ask if you are O.K when your work starts slipping or if you are missing lectures.  Their professional interaction with your learning begins and ends with ensuring you have all the information, anything else you have to source yourself. 

[wasab]

24 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Nothing.  I see no relevance to what I claimed.  In high school the application of the curriculum and testing criteria is flexible,  once you get to University it usually no longer is.  

I'm not rating an educators quality on exams and test result but more on a students learning outcome. If a students knew the materials better on average then these educators succeeded. Also, you are talking as if college do not have arbitrary criteria and grade inflation of its own. 

 

24 minutes ago, mr moose said:

That's nice, but what I said is still true,  they don't have to ask if you are O.K when your work starts slipping or if you are missing lectures.  Their professional interaction with your learning begins and ends with ensuring you have all the information, anything else you have to source yourself. 

I'm not asking any professors to do that. I will seek them out for a chat if I have issues. What I'm talking about is that they actually teach the materials needed for the assignments and teach them well.

 

What I get annoyed is the fact my physics professor ranted on for hours about how electrons repel and attract and then assign exams and homework questions with complex equations that were never seen in lectures. In fact, my professor never did an example question in any lecture. Or my favorites, my CS professor telling the whole class everything you need to know to do the assigment can be found by googling. 

 

Compared that to my high school physics teacher who teach the class by solving one physics equation after another.

 

What I see effective teaching is simple, watch someone how to do it, then try doing it and practicing on your own. That's the proccess of all learning, any kind of learning. If professor do not do the former, you end up self teaching for the former and in that case, professor do not teach and if you think teaching is not part of their job description, you are wrong. 

[mr moose]

35 minutes ago, wasab said:

I'm not rating an educators quality on exams and test result but more on a students learning outcome. If a students knew the materials better on average then these educators succeeded. Also, you are talking as if college do not have arbitrary criteria and grade inflation of its own. 

 

I'm not asking any professors to do that. I will seek them out for a chat if I have issues. What I'm talking about is that they actually teach the materials needed for the assignments and teach them well.

 

What I get annoyed is the fact my physics professor ranted on for hours about how electrons repel and attract and then assign exams and homework questions with complex equations that were never seen in lectures. In fact, my professor never did an example question in any lecture. Or my favorites, my CS professor telling the whole class everything you need to know to do the assigment can be found by googling. 

Yes, they expect you to do the hard work.  Contrary to popular belief university isn't just regurgitating what the lecturer says.  You have to learn it, you have to find the relevant information to support your assignment or to show you understand the subject matter.  

 

35 minutes ago, wasab said:

Compared that to my high school physics teacher who teach the class by solving one physics equation after another.

 

What I see effective teaching is simple, watch someone how to do it, then try doing it and practicing on your own. That's the proccess of all learning, any kind of learning. If professor do not do the former, you end up self teaching for the former and in that case, professor do not teach and if you think teaching is not part of their job description, you are wrong. 

 

compare that to high school where they guide you through the subject.  That is the core difference, High school is not even remotely in the same basket as college/university.

 

Here is a good video that explains the disparity between the two and why you get coddled (or have it easy) in high school and why university seems like it's run by people who can't teach:

 

 

 

 

[wasab]

16 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Yes, they expect you to do the hard work.  Contrary to popular belief university isn't just regurgitating what the lecturer says.  You have to learn it, you have to find the relevant information to support your assignment or to show you understand the subject matter.  

 

 

compare that to high school where they guide you through the subject.  That is the core difference, High school is not even remotely in the same basket as college/university.

 

Here is a good video that explains the disparity between the two and why you get coddled (or have it easy) in high school and why university seems like it's run by people who can't teach:

 

 

 

 

What difference are you talking about? All I heard In the video is that high school physics did not do enough math which I found completely false. I see more calculus and differential equations in my high school AP physics compare to college. Reason? My teacher literally spent an hour and a half 5 days a week solving word problems and did the calculations. In college, it is 10-20 questions per two weeks and none is taught in 3 hours a week lecture. 

 

You are not even understanding the video you linked. What they are talking about is totally different issue and does Not apply to my high school AP physics C mechanics and eletricity/magnetism which is different than AP physics A talked in the video in that you get brutal dose of calculus and hardcore math as part of the curriculum.  

[mr moose]

4 minutes ago, wasab said:

What difference are you talking about? All I heard In the video is that high school physics did not do enough math which I found completely false. I see more calculus and differential equations in my high school AP physics compare to college. Reason? My teacher literally spent an hour and a half 5 days a week solving word problems and did the calculations. In college, it is 10-20 questions per two weeks and none is taught in 3 hours a week lecture. 

 

Yep, you versus several professors with reasoned concerned regarding the high school curriculum.  Which all started because minute physics pointed out a concern in the same vein in the US.   Know who I believe, the University professors who coincidentally enough are saying things I have seen first hand.

4 minutes ago, wasab said:

You are not even understanding the video you linked. What they are talking about is totally different issue and does Not apply to my high school AP physics C mechanics and eletricity/magnetism which is different than AP physics A talked in the video in that you get brutal dose of calculus and hardcore math as part of the curriculum. 

 

 

 

 

I think you need to watch it again. 

[wasab]

17 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Yep, you versus several professors with reasoned concerned regarding the high school curriculum.  Which all started because minute physics pointed out a concern in the same vein in the US.  

Perhaps that might be true for high school physics but are you sure they are talking about AP physics C which is cirriculum even Harvard will accept as college credit and satisfy a requirement for?

 

17 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I think you need to watch it again. 

First of all, never once did they mention any claim that the issue is that you need to self study in college while high school guides you through the proccess which your original argument premise itself off. And frankly, I doubt they will say high school hand holding is worse than college just throwing the responsibility of learning on your own if they did talked about it. 

 

And 2nd, I still do not think you understand the video you link unless you want to actually elaborate to me the points you wish to make instead of just telling me to watch it again. 

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, wasab said:

Perhaps they might be true for high school physics but are you sure they are talking about AP physics C which is cirriculum even Harvard will accept as credit credit and satisfy a requirement for?

 

First of all, never once did they mention any claim that the issue is that you need to self study in college while high school guides you through the proccess which your original argument premise itself off. And frankly, I doubt they will say high school hand holding is worse than college just throwing all the learning on your own if they did talked about it. 

 

And 2nd, I still do not think you understand the video you link unless you want to actually elaborate to me the points you wish to make instead of just telling me to watch it again. 

tell yourself whatever you need to but he basic fact remains that the way they teach in high school is vastly different to the way they teach at university for widely different and legitimate reasons.   This as highlighted by the video which at its core is based on the fundamental existence of the disparity between the two.  

 

 

As a university student you are responsible for your education, not the professor.  He is there to curate your education not to hold your hand.