Educational system: School VS Degree

[wasab]

3 minutes ago, mr moose said:

tell yourself whatever you need to but he basic fact remains that the way they teach in high school is vastly different to the way they teach at university for widely different and legitimate reasons.   This as highlighted by the video which at its core is based on the fundamental existence of the disparity between the two.  

 

 

As a university student you are responsible for your education, not the professor.  He is there to curate your education not to hold your hand.

you still arent realizing the video you linked is not arguing about the same thing. 

[mr moose]

23 minutes ago, wasab said:

you still arent realizing the video you linked is not arguing about the same thing. 

If that's what you need to believe then by all means. 

 

Some quotes from the video:

 

"teachers fear putting math into physics for fear of frightening of the students"  3:03

 

And:

 

"calculus has been ripped out of A level physics" 3:23

 

If that isn't coddling students then such a thing doesn't exit.

 

I don't think you watched the video, because if you did you would see exactly what I am talking about when I say:

 

Quote

 

That's because in college they don't coddle you nor tailor your assessments to your particular personality, you are expected to know how to learn and how to ask for help or clarification.  University is adult education.  High school is for children.  

 

 

As shown in the video, the curriculum and what they teach is changed to suit the students, students are coddled in high school.

 

Maybe you just don't like the idea that you are having trouble with college professors because you weren't adequately prepared for it by your high school.  This is a common thing.

[wasab]

56 minutes ago, mr moose said:

If that's what you need to believe then by all means. 

 

Some quotes from the video:

 

"teachers fear putting math into physics for fear of frightening of the students"  3:03

 

And:

 

"calculus has been ripped out of A level physics" 3:23

 

If that isn't coddling students then such a thing doesn't exit.

What materials high school teach have nothing to do with the fact high school teachers are better at teaching. You let professors teach highs school level physics, they will do a similar piss poor jobs. I am talking about a teacher's teaching quality, not the quality of the materials. These will be basically the same everywhere for entry classes like calculus or physics everywhere.

 

Actually going over the materials lead to worse learning outcome makes no sense. You ever cook? are you gonna learn better reading a recipe on your own or have profession chef demonstrate a recipe to you by actually cooking? 

Quote

As shown in the video, the curriculum and what they teach is changed to suit the students, students are coddled in high school.

 

Maybe you just don't like the idea that you are having trouble with college professors because you weren't adequately prepared for it by your high school.  This is a common thing.

First of all, AP are college level courses. 2nd, I have been doing college level work before college even began. Third, you are not arguing the same issues. Read up what APs are. 

https://blog.prepscholar.com/whats-the-difference-between-ap-physics-1-2-and-c

 

 

[mr moose]

8 minutes ago, wasab said:

What materials high school teach have nothing to do with the fact high school teachers are better at teaching. You let professors teach highs school level physics, they will do a similar piss poor jobs. I am talking about a teacher's teaching quality, not the quality of the content. 

 

How about you address what I said rather than side step the entire point made by both myself and the video.  

Quote

Actually going over the materials lead to worse learning outcome makes no sense. You ever cook? are you gonna learn better reading a recipe on your own or have profession chef demonstrate a recipe to you by actually cooking? 

 

Your expectations of university/college are not being met because you weren't properly prepared for it.   This is not a new thing and you can't explain it away by pointing to one bad professor.  As they said in the video, they are their to teach you science, science does not change because you don't like the way it is being taught or because you need a physical model or demonstration to understand the theory.  That is your problem to solve.   

[SenKa]

On 10/4/2019 at 10:13 AM, Wolfycapt said:

my point its does education system even makes us smart?

Smart has many definitions, so your answer depends.

 

IMO:

 

Highschool education needs to stop focusing on getting kids in to college and start focusing on getting kids ready for the world. This is how it used to be, and how it aught to be. I don't care how to find the area of hybrid shapes. I care how to do my taxes and budget my future. Not everybody has parents, and not everybody who has parents have parents who can or want to teach this stuff. The point of school is to make you ready for the world.

 

College is where you need to learn how to be smart in your trade. I am a political science major, and thus I don't care about classes pertaining to natural sciences. If I cared about them I would take them as electives, or be a natural sciences major. Uni isn't for everybody, so stop making high school about preparation for university.

 

Does primary education make us smart? No. It makes us intelligent. Smarts is knowing how to survive, intelligence is how you get a job. Frankly if we were only to prioritize one, Id prefer survival. Prioritizing raw intelligence in primary education is kind of putting the cart before the horse.

 

Does secondary education makes us smart? This is where we are supposed to learn intelligence, and we are.

[wasab]

13 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Your expectations of university/college are not being met because you weren't properly prepared for it.   This is not a new thing and you can't explain it away by pointing to one bad professor.  As they said in the video, they are their to teach you science, science does not change because you don't like the way it is being taught or because you need a physical model or demonstration to understand the theory.  That is your problem to solve.   

Like I said, I went into college with two semesters of college level physics and math already completed. Saying I was unprepared is not a valid argument.

 

Professors are not here to teach you how to teach yourself and I did not pay college tuition to learn to become a better learner but actually learn materials and concepts in the fields I study. They did a piss poor job at that. What part of this don't you understand? 

 

 

[mr moose]

8 minutes ago, wasab said:

What part of this don't you understand? 

 

 

The bit where you keep saying "no"  but not giving any valid rebuttal as to why what I have said and what other professors are saying is wrong.

 

Claiming you had trouble does not mean your professors are failures, if every student has trouble then you might have an argument, but then if the every student has trouble that processor won't last long in their job.   Claiming you had trouble with one or two professors does not invalidate what I said.  In fact it seems to highlight it. 

[BuckGup]

Depends on the teacher. Yes there are shitty college professors but through my experiences you are more likely to find a highschool teacher not know the subject they teach than a college professor. That said the teachers that can thoroughly explain any question you have or actually find the answer for you if they don't know is a good teacher or professor.

[wasab]

11 minutes ago, mr moose said:

snip

Have you ever read the rest of my post beyond that statement I added at the end out of exasperation? What im saying aint that complicated.

 

These students get by the course by being good at teaching themselves and learn to master the art of googling. How I know? cuz I am now a senior and thats how I cope and many successful students cope while the ones who cant switch out of stem fields or dropped out entirely. Not that complicated. 

 

Students keep giving these professors bad evaluation but admins do not care. They have much more protection compare to your average high school teacher and are not held under the same standard and face the same career jeopardy as a high school teacher if they do not teach well. 

[wasab]

33 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

Depends on the teacher. Yes there are shitty college professors but through my experiences you are more likely to find a highschool teacher not know the subject they teach than a college professor. That said the teachers that can thoroughly explain any question you have or actually find the answer for you if they don't know is a good teacher or professor.

The real issues is that these professors are not trained teachers. I literally have heard one professor remarked he hates teaching undergraduate freshmen and he became a professor only to do research. Thats what they do the other 50% of the time, either research or service work. You will never see them putting the same effort and time into making lesson plans, coming up with better assignments, and such as a high school teacher. In fact, my professors do lecture using power point slides with many typos in them and many do not make their own slides but just use ones made by others. My computer architecture professors literally used the slides made by another professor at Carnegie Melon university which is not even the school I am attending. 

[mr moose]

55 minutes ago, wasab said:

Have you ever read the rest of my post beyond that statement I added at the end out of exasperation? What im saying aint that complicated.

Yes, you said this:

 

1 hour ago, wasab said:

Professors are not here to teach you how to teach yourself

 

 

Which I have already said when I said:

 

2 hours ago, mr moose said:

As a university student you are responsible for your education, not the professor.  He is there to curate your education not to hold your hand.

and:

Quote

That's because in college they don't coddle you nor tailor your assessments to your particular personality, you are expected to know how to learn and how to ask for help or clarification.  University is adult education.  High school is for children.

So why do you think it is now important but not when I said it?

 

55 minutes ago, wasab said:

 

These students get by the course by being good at teaching themselves and learn to master the art of googling. How I know? cuz I am now a senior and thats how I cope and many successful students cope while the ones who cant switch out of stem fields or dropped out entirely. Not that complicated. 

 

So now you are saying what i said right back at the beginning.  I am having trouble trying to work out what exactly your issue is. 

55 minutes ago, wasab said:

Students keep giving these professors bad evaluation but admins do not care. They have much more protection compare to your average high school teacher and are not held under the same standard and face the same career jeopardy as a high school teacher if they do not teach well. 

 

If 3 students complain and the other 30 pass adequately then they will ignore the bad reports.  That's life in every field. discipline, workplace, school, sports club etc etc etc.

 

If you are having trouble it is because you are having trouble. It really seams you are looking for someone to blame because you weren't prepared. 

 

 

[BuckGup]

40 minutes ago, wasab said:

The real issues is that these professors are not trained teachers. I literally have heard one professor remarked he hates teaching undergraduate freshmen and he became a professor only to do research. Thats what they do the other 50% of the time, either research or service work. You will never see them putting the same effort and time into making lesson plans, coming up with better assignments, and such as a high school teacher. In fact, my professors do lecture using power point slides with many typos in them and many do not make their own slides but just use ones made by others. My computer architecture professors literally used the slides made by another professor at Carnegie Melon university which is not even the school I am attending. 

Yeah some professors are like that but not all.

[wasab]

14 minutes ago, mr moose said:

As a university student you are responsible for your education, not the professor.  He is there to curate your education not to hold your hand.

Wow, that is just the biggest mind twist in logic I have heard. 

In justice system, you are responsible for making sure you receive fair trial, not the courts. 

In politics, you are responsible for making sure your elected officials are not crooks, not they making sure they obey the laws.

In restaurant, you are the one responsible for making sure you get the right food, not the servers. 

In college, you are responsible for educating yourself, not the professor. 

 

14 minutes ago, mr moose said:

That's because in college they don't coddle you nor tailor your assessments to your particular personality, you are expected to know how to learn and how to ask for help or clarification.  University is adult education.  High school is for children.

Yeah, have good luck getting your professors attentions in a one hour and a half office hour with 50 other students lined up before a big assignment is to be due. 

14 minutes ago, mr moose said:

If 3 students complain and the other 30 pass adequately then they will ignore the bad reports.  That's life in every field. discipline, workplace, school, sports club etc etc etc.

 

If you are having trouble it is because you are having trouble. It really seams you are looking for someone to blame because you weren't prepared. 

I have seen students who are honors in high school with 4.0 GPA take a huge hit in their college career because of one professor that simply can not teach. They do fine and still pass, but never master the materials as well as they should. 

 

14 minutes ago, mr moose said:

So now you are saying what i said right back at the beginning.  I am having trouble trying to work out what exactly your issue is. 

My issue is these professors do not teach you everything you need to know in lectures, expecting you to pick many of the stuffs on your own. I said this from the get go. 

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, wasab said:

Wow, that is just the biggest mind twist in logic I have heard. 

In justice system, you are responsible for making sure you receive fair trial, not the courts. 

In politics, you are responsible for making sure your elected officials are not crooks, not they making sure they obey the laws.

In restaurant, you are the one responsible for making sure you get the right food, not the servers. 

In college, you are responsible for educating yourself, not the professor. 

Do you even read?   being responsible for your education does not mean educating yourself,  it means asking for help/clariffication when necessary, making sure you understand the requirements before handing in work, all the basic shit people need to do to be successful in not just education but life.   It means not relying on the professor to hold your hand and come to you when they think you are struggling.

 

3 minutes ago, wasab said:

Yeah, have good luck getting your professors attentions in a one hour and a half office hour with 50 other students lined up before a big assignment is to be due. 

They only gave you a 1.5 hour window to talk to the professor?  BS.

 

3 minutes ago, wasab said:

I have seen students who are honors in high school with 4.0 GPA take a huge hit in their college career because of one professor that simply can not teach. They do fine and still pass, but never master the materials as well as they should. 

Because they weren't prepared more likely.  

 

 

3 minutes ago, wasab said:

My issue is these professors do not teach you everything you need to know in lectures, expecting you to pick many of teh stuffs on your own. I said this from the get go. 

That is how it works though, professors don't have the time to tell you everything, no one does.  A degree in physics would take decades if the professor had to explain everything.  Do you know what the word research means? how about study?  it means looking up the reference material for yourself and getting the information required.  They aren't going to tell you like they do in High school, it doesn't all come out of one book.  

[mr moose]

21 minutes ago, wasab said:

Wow, that is just the biggest mind twist in logic I have heard. 

 

 

And just to add, I did specifically say their job was to curate your education,  how well you do is your responsibility, their responsibility is to ensure you have the information required to succeed. Which, as I have already pointed out, is the rubric and information sources.  Trying to twist that into the mess of analogies you did is just plane wrong.

[wasab]

2 hours ago, mr moose said:

Do you even read?   

Yes but did you read the part I said they told me to google the stuffs? Did you hear me talking they do not teach these stuffs at all and expect you to self learn them on your own?

 

2 hours ago, mr moose said:

They only gave you a 1.5 hour window to talk to the professor?  BS.

Dude, how long do you think professor hold office hours for? 1.5 per session, two sessions per week on average. That is assuming you do not have any other lectures, classes, jobs, activities that you have to attend at those time. How many students do you think are enroll in a course and wish to see their professors at an OH? for perspectinve, my lecture hall is 200 students full in one section and professor teaches more than one section for particular course. 

2 hours ago, mr moose said:

That is how it works though, professors don't have the time to tell you everything, no one does.  A degree in physics would take decades if the professor had to explain everything.  Do you know what the word research means? how about study?  it means looking up the reference material for yourself and getting the information required.  They aren't going to tell you like they do in High school, it doesn't all come out of one book.  

he has the responsibility to make sure you need to learn all the needed to pass the course. In high school, i literally learn two semesters worth of college level materials off class lessons and notes I took. Not once did i turn to textbooks or the internet. Why can't these professors do the same? 

 

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

And just to add, I did specifically say their job was to curate your education.

Their job is to teach. Curate what? You don't do self research until PhD. As undergraduate, I am literally learning every theory that is suppose to be taught, not for me to self discover. 

 

By your logic, every students would've have same learning outcomes from one professor to the next regardless and that is just false. 

 

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

how well you do is your responsibility, their responsibility is to ensure you have the information required to succeed.

Yeah? I will give you a user/piolot manual which contains all the information you need to fly an airplane. Now go pilot a commercial jet. 

[mr moose]

5 hours ago, wasab said:

Yes but did you read the part I said they told me to google the stuffs? Did you hear me talking they do not teach these stuffs at all and expect you to self learn them on your own?

I read it, I just don't believe  they told you to google some core component of the curriculum and left it at that. 

5 hours ago, wasab said:

Dude, how long do you think professor hold office hours for? 1.5 per session, two sessions per week on average. That is assuming you do not have any other lectures, classes, jobs, activities that you have to attend at those time. How many students do you think are enroll in a course and wish to see their professors at an OH? for perspectinve, my lecture hall is 200 students full in one section and professor teaches more than one section for particular course. 

And you expect me to believe that you only had one 1.5 hour session for every student to talk to the professor before a major assessment?  grasping at straws there.  How many weeks did you have to do the assessment and you only decided you needed to talk to the professor on that last session?

 

5 hours ago, wasab said:

he has the responsibility to make sure you need to learn all the needed to pass the course. In high school, i literally learn two semesters worth of college level materials off class lessons and notes I took. Not once did i turn to textbooks or the internet. Why can't these professors do the same? 

 

Their job is to teach. Curate what? You don't do self research until PhD. As undergraduate, I am literally learning every theory that is suppose to be taught, not for me to self discover. 

 

By your logic, every students would've have same learning outcomes from one professor to the next regardless and that is just false. 

 

Yeah? I will give you a user/piolot manual which contains all the information you need to fly an airplane. Now go pilot a commercial jet. 

Righto, you just go ahead and believe whatever you want.  if you think  the professor should demonstrate everything for you or hold your hand while you learn it then fine, I hope you make it through,  because that ain't going to happen. 

 

 

[wasab]

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

I read it, I just don't believe  they told you to google some core component of the curriculum and left it at that. 

He did. Guess you are serious out of touch if you think students do not do the brunt of the self learning. 

 

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

And you expect me to believe that you only had one 1.5 hour session for every student to talk to the professor before a major assessment?  grasping at straws there.  How many weeks did you have to do the assessment and you only decided you needed to talk to the professor on that last session?

OMG. Are you seriously gonna point fingers at the student for struggling with bad professors? Real nice dude, real nice. I never spoke with my professor at all. Professor doesn't help a bit, assuming you actually get to have a chat with him one to one. OH I've ever been to is that of the TAs(who are fellow students and understood the struggle) which help out a lot more. You are seriously out of touch with what's going in modern day college aren't you?

 

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

Righto, you just go ahead and believe whatever you want.  if you think  the professor should demonstrate everything for you or hold your hand while you learn it then fine, I hope you make it through,  because that ain't going to happen. 

How about some good professors who are good at teaching actually do? How about the fact they get students thanking them for having learned so much instead of leaving bitter reviews. You just do not understand do you?

[mr moose]

10 hours ago, wasab said:

He did. Guess you are serious out of touch if you think students do not do the brunt of the self learning. 

 

OMG. Are you seriously gonna point fingers at the student for struggling with bad professors? Real nice dude, real nice. I never spoke with my professor at all. Professor doesn't help a bit, assuming you actually get to have a chat with him one to one. OH I've ever been to is that of the TAs(who are fellow students and understood the struggle) which help out a lot more. You are seriously out of touch with what's going in modern day college aren't you?

 

I am when they make claims that are just unreasonable to accept.

 

10 hours ago, wasab said:

How about some good professors who are good at teaching actually do? How about the fact they get students thanking them for having learned so much instead of leaving bitter reviews. You just do not understand do you?

I have met quite a few, had discussion on the very topic.  Most if not all have time for all their students, but they don't chase you down, you have to go to them. That is how it works. Yes I understand, you want to assume I don't because you don;t like what I am saying.

[Bacon soup]

In the first and second years at university; you can skip lectures and get by on reading your text books. I did this and I got good grades without going to class. Your time is best spent getting your homework done. In the final years you must have a relationship with your professors. No text book will help you in advanced assignments.

[wasab]

2 hours ago, mr moose said:

I have met quite a few, had discussion on the very topic.  Most if not all have time for all their students, but they don't chase you down, you have to go to them. That is how it works. Yes I understand, you want to assume I don't because you don;t like what I am saying.

How am I asking professor to check up on their students? I am asking them to teach the stuffs that are going to be needed on the assignments. I have no desire whatsoever to be hunted down or forced to have a conversation. You are not even understanding what I said. 

[FezBoy]

2 hours ago, mr moose said:

I have met quite a few, had discussion on the very topic.  Most if not all have time for all their students, but they don't chase you down, you have to go to them. That is how it works. Yes I understand, you want to assume I don't because you don;t like what I am saying.

This is exactly what @wasab is saying they should do.  Teaching is not merely presenting the material, but ensuring that it is understood.  This is done by giving examples in class, answering questions in class, and providing office hours for additional help.  It is confirmed via tests.  

 

Y'all are arguing the same point at each other, yet still miscommunicating greatly.

[Trik'Stari]

I'd say our education system is complete garbage. Doesn't teach a lot of really necessary skills, and personally I feel a lot of people who teach, shouldn't be allowed to teach, either because they're morons or because they've clearly got a political bias and are only there to ensure people view themselves as victims of the system and spend their lives not trying hard enough, then blaming the system for their failure.

[FezBoy]

3 minutes ago, Trik'Stari said:

I'd say our education system is complete garbage. Doesn't teach a lot of really necessary skills, and personally I feel a lot of people who teach, shouldn't be allowed to teach, either because they're morons or because they've clearly got a political bias and are only there to ensure people view themselves as victims of the system and spend their lives not trying hard enough, then blaming the system for their failure.

While this is very true, it doesn't make the school system worthless.  You learn a lot less by doing nothing than you do by going to school.

[Trik'Stari]

1 minute ago, FezBoy said:

While this is very true, it doesn't make the school system worthless.  You learn a lot less by doing nothing than you do by going to school.

But learning the wrong things (like to think of yourself as a victim your entire life) cause severe psychological harm and are a net negative for all of society.