Macbook's T2 Claims Another Victim, Apple Refuses To Honour Warranty

[mr moose]

8 hours ago, iamdarkyoshi said:

While I totally agree that anyone without a backup (especially time machine since it actually works) is a moron, it doesn't address the fact that apple is locking out third party repair. Everyone should have a choice on where to bring their car for repairs, or repair it themselves. The same should apply to their computer.

 

Everyone should have the option to even have their machine repaired.  

 

People are confusing requiring top end security (by means of encryption) with requiring an easy to use and repair system.   It is not for apple to decide when my PC won't be repaired.

[Guest]

But at least the TPM module is optional! Which is not the case with the T2

[NumLock21]

7 minutes ago, Cora_Lie said:

But at least the TPM module is optional! Which is not the case with the T2

Optional or not, it's the same function when it comes to encrypting data and the prevention of data theft.

[vanished]

15 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Everyone should have the option to even have their machine repaired.  

 

People are confusing requiring top end security (by means of encryption) with requiring an easy to use and repair system.   It is not for apple to decide when my PC won't be repaired.

That really is another important thing here which we all saw with Linus' iMac Pro troubles -even if it is genuinely out of warranty, or if the damage was something they wouldn't cover, like the user dropped it in a lake, etc. - you should have the option to pay for reasonably priced first party repairs.  Not only do they all too often refuse to honour the warranty and/or overcharge for repairs they are willing to make, they straight up don't offer the option far more than they should.  If it was genuinely a write off because it was run over by a truck and the body, screen, CPU, motherboard, etc. were all snapped in half, sure, I can understand them recommending a full replacement, but they do that when the repairs necessary are actually quite doable and certainly less than the cost of a full new machine.

[Guest]

Again: It is optional! Meaning the customer/OWNER makes an ACTIVE choice to have it IN! And the customer/OWNER knows what it means to have it IN and what it implies regarding the way the computer will work in the future.

It is an informed decision.

 

I'm quite sure that 90% of the time that is not the case in regard to the T2! I'm quite sure the big majority of the happy iPadsomethimg OWNERS don't know what a T2 chip is and what it will do to their computer.

Edited August 4, 2019 by Guest
Changed ON by IN, correction

[Thaldor]

This basicly comes down to the point I tried to say the first time Apple brought out the T2-chip.

 

Who needs this level of security? For real, who and how many users needs it? Like 1 out of 100? 1 out of 1000?

 

Even some huge corporation servers don't have this level of security. To find self-destroying drives needful you are probably going to go to some very specific jobs, even usual CEOs don't actually need that level of security just because tight security is always double-edged sword like with T2-chip (no one can access your data but impossible to recover or repair).

 

The only reason why normal Macbook sold to common people would need to have T2-chip activated to the fullest with encryptions and all would be that the machine is burner (you break it / it breaks -> "Too bad, that would be XXXX$ for a new Mac"). There is 0 (zero) good reasons why normal "Abby Normal" should have a PC with a drive that has hardware encryption to the level of having hardware key and complete block if some part of that hardware is changed or the drives controller breaks.

"People fear that their data is stolen" FUCK OFF. If someone wanted to steal Abbys data, they would just dig through her public posts in Facebook/Instagram/Twitter or just that Abby happens to be one of those who uses "password" as password and her data is stolen among thousands of others. You actually need to be quite high profile person that someone who steals your laptop would care enough to even breaktrough your password and quite probably even then it's targeted attack (someone wants YOUR machine, not just any machine). I would say probably 99% of stolen laptops (windows, mac, linux, whatever) are sold as they are or just formated to get the buyer working machine. Literally no one cares what kind of dwarf porn you like to watch and even Apple knows that.

What Apple knows better is how to market unrepairable machine to people so that they are even hyped over that they are basicly buying a burner-PC which is 100% garbage after it breaks. And just like in this case, "it has water damage, no warranties" and probably in the part two "It's opened by someone else than Apple licensed monkey, no warranty and whatever it has wrong is made by that third party".

[mr moose]

20 minutes ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

That really is another important thing here which we all saw with Linus' iMac Pro troubles -even if it is genuinely out of warranty, or if the damage was something they wouldn't cover, like the user dropped it in a lake, etc. - you should have the option to pay for reasonably priced first party repairs.  Not only do they all too often refuse to honour the warranty and/or overcharge for repairs they are willing to make, they straight up don't offer the option far more than they should.  If it was genuinely a write off because it was run over by a truck and the body, screen, CPU, motherboard, etc. were all snapped in half, sure, I can understand them recommending a full replacement, but they do that when the repairs necessary are actually quite doable and certainly less than the cost of a full new machine.

 

It's even worse when they not only do they refuse to repair it but they are doing them damnedest to not let anyone else do it either.  That is the very definition of anti-consumer.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

It's even worse when they not only do they refuse to repair it but they are doing them damnedest to not let anyone else do it either.  That is the very definition of anti-consumer.

No no! They just make it absolutely clear (again) that they consider their customers as cash cows.

AS they did when it was officially proved that the iPhone (4 ??  5???  66??? ) batteries had a 1 year life time (and as you couldn^t change the battery you had to buy a new one), that they pushed their customers to change their iPhones by any way possible to change their gadget after a year, that they programmed obsolescence of their nomad materials between 1 and max. 3  years.

 

 

[mr moose]

5 minutes ago, Cora_Lie said:

No no! They just make it absolutely clear (again) that they consider their customers as cash cows.

AS they did when it was officially proved that the iPhone (4 ??  5???  66??? ) batteries had a 1 year life time (and as you couldn^t change the battery you had to buy a new one), that they pushed their customers to change their iPhones by any way possible to change their gadget after a year, that they programmed obsolescence of their nomad materials between 1 and max. 3  years.

 

 

They don't make it clear, in fact they do the exact opposite, they rely on their marketing where everyone believes their products have the best after sales service.  For a very long time (when their products were very well designed) the chief defense presented for the premium price was that after sales service was second to none. 

 

Under Australian Law these two conditions of sale must be met:

 

Quote

 

- come with undisturbed possession, so no one has a right to take the goods away or prevent you from using them.

...

 

- have spare parts and repair facilities available for a reasonable time after purchase unless you were told otherwise.

 

 

Apple clearly did not make it a condition of sale so  under Australian consumer law they must offer the parts or the repairs (they do neither).

 

Also intentionally denying NVIDIA owners the drivers necessary also violate these laws because it intentionally renders the product unusable.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, mr moose said:

They don't make it clear, in fact they do the exact opposite, they rely on their marketing where everyone believes their products have the best after sales service.  For a very long time (when their products were very well designed) the chief defense presented for the premium price was that after sales service was second to none.

I'm sorry, my mistake here! ^o^

When I said "they make it absolutely clear", I meant by their actions!

 

[justpoet]

I'm going to come in and buck the trend here.  I'm ***GLAD*** that everything becomes irretrievable after a component is changed.  That's kinda how secure encryption works.  I'm willing to give up the convenience of "if I kill this and don't have a backup, I can try to recover it" for much more solid security.  If that wasn't the case, it would be easy for somebody along the line to someplace swap/add in a bad component and hide what it is doing (think the prior fake news about spy chips on motherboards).  The T2 chip, with full encryption enabled, serves the purpose of making a Mac as secure as your phone once it is powered off.

 

Think of it like this.  If you're a person that commonly forgets things and uses password recovery often…you're actually allowing somebody else to hold the keys, and just asking them to use them when you provide your own keys to them.  If you don't do that, then they can't recover things for you, because only you had the original key you lost (so you should always make and keep a backup copy).  Security vs convenience.  Both are valid and make sense, but neither are perfect for everybody.

 

Backups, on the other hand, especially for laptops, are generally not taken with you, but left in a more secure place, such as your home.  That's why they aren't typically encrypted by default with Time Machine (though I thought they made it encrypted by default with the last major OS, but I haven't configured it in ages).  If you've ever used the no longer supported network based Time Machine though, it would encrypt by default as well, because file security on some other system (especially if it is in the cloud) can't be as guaranteed.

[mr moose]

Just now, Cora_Lie said:

I'm sorry, my mistake here! ^o^

When I said "they make it absolutely clear", I meant by their actions!

 

 

If their actions are after sales then it isn't made perfectly clear at all.  We (tech enthusiasts) only know about it because we are in an echo chamber for such news.  The average consumer doesn't even know apple refuse to repair or provide spare parts, they are still influenced by all the marketing promoting their after sales service is gold plated and rock solid.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, justpoet said:

The T2 chip, with full encryption enabled, serves the purpose of making a Mac as secure as your phone once it is powered off.

You're joking, right?

Why do you think they made it impossible to remove the battery or open the case on most of the smartphones?

Or that some phones have a small additional battery in the phone?

[justpoet]

Just now, Cora_Lie said:

You're joking, right?

Why do you think they made it impossible to remove the battery or open the case on most of the smartphones?

Or that some phones have a small additional battery in the phone?

No, not joking.  The additional power and non-removability is so that you can also choose to do things like remotely wipe it once you mark it as lost/stolen, or have it use the GPS to tell you where it is.  If you're not doing that, it is actually quite a bit more secure powered off, as all of your keys and auths from the past are no longer in memory (so cold storage and an outside memory reader still can't get anything, even if they could decrypt the on the fly encrypted memory) and your biometrics haven't gone through auth since boot either, so also aren't allowed to be used.  That's all at least on iOS.  On Android I don't know how they handle all those situations.

[Guest]

Just now, justpoet said:

No, not joking.  The additional power and non-removability is so that you can also choose to do things like remotely wipe it once you mark it as lost/stolen, or have it use the GPS to tell you where it is.  If you're not doing that, it is actually quite a bit more secure powered off, as all of your keys and auths from the past are no longer in memory (so cold storage and an outside memory reader still can't get anything, even if they could decrypt the on the fly encrypted memory) and your biometrics haven't gone through auth since boot either, so also aren't allowed to be used.  That's all at least on iOS.  On Android I don't know how they handle all those situations.

You live in Lalaland...

[mr moose]

4 minutes ago, justpoet said:

No, not joking.  The additional power and non-removability is so that you can also choose to do things like remotely wipe it once you mark it as lost/stolen, or have it use the GPS to tell you where it is.  If you're not doing that, it is actually quite a bit more secure powered off, as all of your keys and auths from the past are no longer in memory (so cold storage and an outside memory reader still can't get anything, even if they could decrypt the on the fly encrypted memory) and your biometrics haven't gone through auth since boot either, so also aren't allowed to be used.  That's all at least on iOS.  On Android I don't know how they handle all those situations.

They can do all that whilst making the battery replaceable and encryption optional etc.   There is no limitation that makes any of what they are doing non-optional. 

 

 

[justpoet]

2 minutes ago, Cora_Lie said:

You live in Lalaland...

Actually, I used to test and deploy a lot of it, integrating all the OSs and phone systems together, do security testing, etc...  But if the true narrative doesn't suite you, carry on.

[justpoet]

Just now, mr moose said:

They can do all that whilst making the battery replaceable and encryption optional etc.   There is no limitation that makes any of what they are doing non-optional. 

I was responding to a comment (see the quote) asking why various phones did that…with their comment implying devices were more secure while running…which I was explaining isn't the case.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, justpoet said:

I was responding to a comment (see the quote) asking why various phones did that…with their comment implying devices were more secure while running…which I was explaining isn't the case.

 

Let's simply say that we have different work backgrounds and experience.

 

And I never implied that the device is more secure while running...

[Blademaster91]

1 hour ago, Cora_Lie said:

Again: It is optional! Meaning the customer/OWNER makes an ACTIVE choice to have it IN! And the customer/OWNER knows what it means to have it IN and what it implies regarding the way the computer will work in the future.

It is an informed decision.

 

I'm quite sure that 90% of the time that is not the case in regard to the T2! I'm quite sure the big majority of the happy iPad OWNERS don't know what a T2 chip is and what it will do to their computer.

Yeah that is a good point, the encryption should be optional and if not the user should be warned of what exactly the T2 chip is doing. I doubt most owners even need the T2 encryption and it shouldn't render the entire thing useless without the ability to repair it.

17 minutes ago, justpoet said:

I'm going to come in and buck the trend here.  I'm ***GLAD*** that everything becomes irretrievable after a component is changed.  That's kinda how secure encryption works.  I'm willing to give up the convenience of "if I kill this and don't have a backup, I can try to recover it" for much more solid security.  If that wasn't the case, it would be easy for somebody along the line to someplace swap/add in a bad component and hide what it is doing (think the prior fake news about spy chips on motherboards).  The T2 chip, with full encryption enabled, serves the purpose of making a Mac as secure as your phone once it is powered off.

 

Think of it like this.  If you're a person that commonly forgets things and uses password recovery often…you're actually allowing somebody else to hold the keys, and just asking them to use them when you provide your own keys to them.  If you don't do that, then they can't recover things for you, because only you had the original key you lost (so you should always make and keep a backup copy).  Security vs convenience.  Both are valid and make sense, but neither are perfect for everybody.

 

Backups, on the other hand, especially for laptops, are generally not taken with you, but left in a more secure place, such as your home.  That's why they aren't typically encrypted by default with Time Machine (though I thought they made it encrypted by default with the last major OS, but I haven't configured it in ages).  If you've ever used the no longer supported network based Time Machine though, it would encrypt by default as well, because file security on some other system (especially if it is in the cloud) can't be as guaranteed.

Except with the T2 chip you're allowing Apple to hold the keys, and you're at the mercy of their repair service which could just blame it on you claiming it as "water damage". Most consumers aren't going to fight it and hand over more money for another laptop. If your device is a paperweight because Apple refuses to repair it,it's all security and no convenience, people continuing to support anti-consumer practices even though they know they're being screwed is one of the core points of the video.

[mr moose]

9 minutes ago, justpoet said:

I was responding to a comment (see the quote) asking why various phones did that…with their comment implying devices were more secure while running…which I was explaining isn't the case.

He wasn't asking, he was outright insinuating that non removable batteries were to prevent repairs and nothing else.    Removable/replaceable batteries don't preclude remote wiping or GPS.

[Bitter]

10 hours ago, iamdarkyoshi said:

While I totally agree that anyone without a backup (especially time machine since it actually works) is a moron, it doesn't address the fact that apple is locking out third party repair. Everyone should have a choice on where to bring their car for repairs, or repair it themselves. The same should apply to their computer.

This isn't even a thing anymore. There's a lot of instances where special computers/software/tools are required which are NOT sold to anyone by vetted dealers of that brand OR the subscription and equipment must be purchased from the manufacturer at such high cost that anyone BUT a dealer can't afford it. That's a part of the whole 'right to repair' movement, allowing anyone the tools and information needed to repair their own things. You bought it, it's yours, but do you really own it when you can't fix it? It hits farmers especially hard when a part breaks, it's working season, they need to fix it but oh guess what? The dealer is 200 miles away and when you replace that module you have to re-learn it using DEALER SOFTWARE to the rest of the tractor so you need to get it hauled 200 miles there, worked on, hauled 200 miles back, and then hopefully it all works right. Right to repair is about more than just laptops and cars, it's about literally anything and everything you own.

[Thaldor]

16 minutes ago, justpoet said:

No, not joking.  The additional power and non-removability is so that you can also choose to do things like remotely wipe it once you mark it as lost/stolen, or have it use the GPS to tell you where it is.  If you're not doing that, it is actually quite a bit more secure powered off, as all of your keys and auths from the past are no longer in memory (so cold storage and an outside memory reader still can't get anything, even if they could decrypt the on the fly encrypted memory) and your biometrics haven't gone through auth since boot either, so also aren't allowed to be used.  That's all at least on iOS.  On Android I don't know how they handle all those situations.

And for real, who really needs this level of security with all of the drawbacks of having a >1000$ burner laptop?

 

The amount of expertise and trouble to dig out auths and biometrics and use them in right places is still quite immense. For probably 80% of people a good password is enough security on their laptop and from that 20% group who actually and for real need something stronger, good software based encryption is enough for the most of them. For over 99% of people laptop with burner memory is overkill in scales of shooting a fly with ICBM.

And for that probably 0.01% of people who really need burner memories, that burner memory is enough and burner laptops are more or less always too inconvenient for any use (apart from laptops equipped with T2-burnerchip the ones I have seen are A) cheap as hell looking B) can be hardly called even workstations with their performance C) they are meant to store vulnerable data that you don't want anyone else to see, they are not flashy and expensive and made to edit YouTube videos about your Starbucks coffee, they look and seem like those laptops you wouldn't even take if paid to take and definetly wouldn't risk getting caught stealing).

[justpoet]

It isn't about having a burner.  It's more about preventing folks who lose or have something stolen from suddenly having personal stuff show up online or their identity stolen.  Security and privacy aren't a joke, nor something to be taken lightly.  They're a right, and much like other rights, worth fighting for.

[mr moose]

13 minutes ago, justpoet said:

It isn't about having a burner....   

 

Security and privacy aren't a joke, ....

His point is if it can't be repaired it becomes a burner laptop.  Similar security can be obtained other ways,  so turning a $1000 laptop into a single use consumable is the joke.