Macbook's T2 Claims Another Victim, Apple Refuses To Honour Warranty

[mr moose]

8 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Both of which are rare. One component failure causing the failure of other components is not unique to the MacBook either.

 

So, either apply the judgement to all systems these types of catastrophic events can happen to (meaning ALL of them), or take the reasonable approach that if the data is REALLY that important, regardless of system, it should be backed up.

 

I am not going to try and use situations that are beyond the designers control in order to accept a problem that is in their control.

[Thaldor]

4 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Both of which are rare. One component failure causing the failure of other components is not unique to the MacBook either.

Currently macs are the only ones where one component, that doesn't even have anything to do with storage, causes total data loss. Even Lenovo now days has backup systems for TPM enabled laptops for data recovery in cases where the laptop has completely failed with only storage surviving (you can swap the whole MB and even the whole laptop and place the earlier SSD to the machine and few commands, recovery USB-stick and personal password and the data can be uncrypted and encrypted with the new TPM module).

 

With macs even broken webcam can cause total data loss, because the T2-chip trips and refuses to uncrypt the T2-encryption on the SSD.

[mr moose]

4 minutes ago, Thaldor said:

Currently macs are the only ones where one component, that doesn't even have anything to do with storage, causes total data loss. Even Lenovo now days has backup systems for TPM enabled laptops for data recovery in cases where the laptop has completely failed with only storage surviving (you can swap the whole MB and even the whole laptop and place the earlier SSD to the machine and few commands, recovery USB-stick and personal password and the data can be uncrypted and encrypted with the new TPM module).

 

With macs even broken webcam can cause total data loss, because the T2-chip trips and refuses to uncrypt the T2-encryption on the SSD.

 

It's like arguing that doors sometime stick,  therefore it's fine to build a house you can't get into if the window breaks.

[Drak3]

Just now, Thaldor said:

With macs even broken webcam can cause total data loss

That’s a lie. Second source already confirmed that data recovery is possible if the mainboard is partially functional and the T2 has not failed.

 

3 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

I am not going to try and use situations that are beyond the designers control in order to accept a problem that is in their control.

No, because that requires acknowledgment that this scenario isn’t Apple specific.

 

And T2 failure is also beyond Apple’s control. Want to argue that they could simply not use the T2? Then make the same argument about any system that correctly incorporates the TPM module or any other encryption technology that ties keys to specific hardware.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, Drak3 said:

That’s a lie. Second source already confirmed that data recovery is possible if the mainboard is partially functional and the T2 has not failed.

 

No, because that requires acknowledgment that this scenario isn’t Apple specific.

It is very specific to apple.  You are literally trying to argue that an event beyond the control of the designer is the same as an event that only happened because of the designer.  They are very different events and the outcome is very different because one happens by design the other does not.

 

 

1 minute ago, Drak3 said:

And T2 failure is also beyond Apple’s control. Want to argue that they could simply not use the T2? Then make the same argument about any system that correctly incorporates the TPM module or any other encryption technology that ties keys to specific hardware.

1. no one is arguing that the failure is in apples control, we are arguing what happens after that failure due to its design is in their control.

2. that argument has been made, your just ignoring it.  

[Guest]

 

3 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

And T2 failure is also beyond Apple’s control. Want to argue that they could simply not use the T2? Then make the same argument about any system that correctly incorporates the TPM module or any other encryption technology that ties keys to specific hardware. 

And right here and now you've totally disqualified your argument, as the TPM, being an external module, must be knowingly put into the MB and activated. That's requires the informed decision of the user.

 

T2 is a by default piece, that can't be removed and most user only understand "security". THAT is NOT an informed decision.

 

This is what Apple explains about the T2 on their website : https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208862

Kind of "minimalist" !

 

[Drak3]

Just now, Cora_Lie said:

And right here and now you've totally disqualified your argument, as the TPM, being an external module, must be knowingly put into the MB and activated. That's requires the informed decision of the user.

On some prebuilt systems, yes. Many that include TPM capability, that is blatantly false.

 

2 minutes ago, Cora_Lie said:

This is what Apple explains about the T2 on their website : https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208862

Kind of "minimalist" !

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208344

Quote

but it also means that if the portion of the T2 chip containing your encryption keys becomes damaged, you might need to restore the content of your drive from a backup.

 

[mr moose]

4 minutes ago, Cora_Lie said:

 

And right here and now you've totally disqualified your argument, as the TPM, being an external module, must be knowingly put into the MB and activated. That's requires the informed decision of the user.

 

T2 is a by default piece, that can't be removed and most user only understand "security". THAT is NOT an informed decision.

 

This is what Apple explains about the T2 on their website : https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208862

Kind of "minimalist" !

 

AS I pointed out to Drak before, show me a case where another manufacturer does the same thing and I'll berate them as well.   Either no one else does it the same or the argument is not about the technicalities but the not liking the fact apple has done it.

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

 

 

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208344

 

Quote

but it also means that if the portion of the T2 chip containing your encryption keys becomes damaged, you might need to restore the content of your drive from a backup.

 

 

You know what that means? it means even a partial failure can render your entire drives contents irretrievable. something you are trying really hard to claim isn't a problem.

 

[Thaldor]

6 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

That’s a lie. Second source already confirmed that data recovery is possible if the mainboard is partially functional and the T2 has not failed.

Possible? Yes. Will Apple do it? Quite probably never, because even removing removable SSD was too much to ask from them. I would even argue that those suites needed to do the data recovery are situated only in Apple headquarters and you need to be someone important enough with deep pockets enough for Apple to use it for you.

 

Quote

And T2 failure is also beyond Apple’s control. Want to argue that they could simply not use the T2? Then make the same argument about any system that correctly incorporates the TPM module or any other encryption technology that ties keys to specific hardware.

At least I'm not arguing Apple should stop using the T2-chip. I'm just arguing making the T2-encryption default and forced for machines sold to consumers is fucking ridiculous and mindless. Look at any other manufacturer with build-in TPM module and with all of those you need to specifically activate it and setup encryptions to use it and they also quite often offer failsafes at least for models that are sold also for consumers.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

On some prebuilt systems, yes. Many that include TPM capability, that is blatantly false.

Please link me any PC you can find on Amazon or elsewhere, destined to the end user lambda who has a TPM module prebuilt!

Not a professional one !

Or even better, a brand which has min. 50% of their PCs products (end user lambda) prebuilt with a TPM module.

[Drak3]

2 minutes ago, mr moose said:

something you are trying really hard to claim isn't a problem.

 

False. That's also a total failure of the T2. It can no longer function correctly in any capacity when that happens.

 

1 minute ago, Cora_Lie said:

destined to the end user lambda who has a TPM module prebuilt!

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-pro-6/tech-specs

https://store.hp.com/app/pdp/hp-chromebook-x2-12-f015nr?source=aw&subacctid=221667&subacctname=Ziff+Davis%2C+Inc.&awc=7168_1564967055_f1196d8c7ac331ba06d09c8999d422f8&jumpid=af_gen_nc_ns&utm_medium=af&utm_source=aw&utm_campaign=Ziff+Davis%2C+Inc.

https://www.dell.com/support/article/us/en/04/sln312112/dell-tpm-platform-support?lang=en (last 6 are XPS machines, which serve as a general purpose ultrabook)

https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/ThinkPad-X-Series-Laptops/Laptop-models-with-TPM-Chip/td-p/2257601 (The cheaper Thinkpads and Thinkcenters are common in stores like Best Buy)

 

Add the Acer Aspire 5 to that list:

 

https://www.pcmag.com/roundup/249672/the-best-business-laptops

4 minutes ago, Cora_Lie said:

Not a professional one !

Then we can disregard every Mac outside the Air.

[mr moose]

26 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

False. That's also a total failure of the T2. It can no longer function correctly in any capacity when that happens.

So we can establish that a failure is a failure  and that T2 failure (by design not just failure) renders the entire system non functional and data completely lost? 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

52 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-pro-6/tech-specs

https://store.hp.com/app/pdp/hp-chromebook-x2-12-f015nr?source=aw&subacctid=221667&subacctname=Ziff+Davis%2C+Inc.&awc=7168_1564967055_f1196d8c7ac331ba06d09c8999d422f8&jumpid=af_gen_nc_ns&utm_medium=af&utm_source=aw&utm_campaign=Ziff+Davis%2C+Inc.

https://www.dell.com/support/article/us/en/04/sln312112/dell-tpm-platform-support?lang=en (last 6 are XPS machines, which serve as a general purpose ultrabook)

https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/ThinkPad-X-Series-Laptops/Laptop-models-with-TPM-Chip/td-p/2257601 (The cheaper Thinkpads and Thinkcenters are common in stores like Best Buy)

 

Add the Acer Aspire 5 to that list:

 

https://www.pcmag.com/roundup/249672/the-best-business-laptops

Then we can disregard every Mac outside the Air.

• Microsoft Surface Pro 6

Security	TPM 2.0 chip for enterprise security Enterprise-grade protection with Windows Hello face sign-in

• HP Chromebook x2 :  TPM not listed in the Datasheet or on the webpage
• Lenovo Thinkpads: All the Thinkxxxxx are business grade computers! They have been remade on the express demand of developers! Plus you're linking a thread on the forum from 2016!!
  When you check the actual shop with what they have listed ( https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/search?text=tpm ) all you have as resultsare business grade computers or workstations! and some of the computers listed on their site are even no longer available
• Acer Aspire 5: Not all of the models have the TPM by default, mine (my daughter's) doesn't! Plus the Aspire 5 is a business model (your own link says so... "the best business laptops"...)
• Dell: You linked the actual BUSINESS pages! So business models!!!

Unbelievable!!!

 

AND, more so... The TPM is NOT active by default!  It needs to be activated in the BIOS.

Not only that but on ALL of them the TPM can be reinitialized, and you get a recovery key.

 

 

[Guest]

54 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Then we can disregard every Mac outside the Air

Mac Mini isn't a professional/business model

 

So... 2 out of 4 with T2.,.. 50% are "pro" models, 50% are not...

Why do you think I asked you to name me a PC brand with 50% of their computer products being with TPM and not a business model?

 

Edit: You simply can't compare watermelons with strawberries! You just can't!

Edited August 5, 2019 by Guest

[Drak3]

15 minutes ago, Cora_Lie said:

TPM 2.0 chip for enterprise security Enterprise-grade protection with Windows Hello face sign-in

Enabled by default on all units.

 

15 minutes ago, Cora_Lie said:

HP Chromebook x2 :  TPM not listed in the Datasheet or on the webpage

The H1 Secure Microprocessor is a TPM.

 

16 minutes ago, Cora_Lie said:

All the Thinkxxxxx are business grade computers!

And? Lenovo also sells many models to the general populous though outlets like Best Buy. That defeats the "business grade" marketing on many of their SKUs.

17 minutes ago, Cora_Lie said:

Not all of the models have the TPM by default, mine (my daughter's) doesn't! Plus the Aspire 5 is a business model (your own link says so... "the best business laptops".

Again, these things are intentionally being sold to the average consumer by the manufacturers just like every non-business laptop. Rendering your point moot.

19 minutes ago, Cora_Lie said:

You linked the actual BUSINESS pages! So business models!!!

Except the XPS line is marketed and sold by Dell as both personal and work computers.

 

19 minutes ago, Cora_Lie said:

The TPM is NOT active by default!  It needs to be activated in the BIOS.

That's false. The Windows laptops have SecureBoot enabled out of the box. TPM is required for SecureBoot.

 

7 minutes ago, Cora_Lie said:

Mac Mini isn't a professional/business model

Yes, it is. The Mac Mini was refreshed the way it was largely because of business uses of them as hidden systems, servers, cluster computers, and for businesses looking for less expensive upgrades in/to OSX.

 

11 minutes ago, Cora_Lie said:

So... 2 out of 4 with T2.

A) 1

B) Out of 5. MBA, MBP, iMac Pro, the upcoming Mac Pro, and Mac Mini have T2 chips.

 

And even then, the Air can be argued to be a half step between business machine and personal machine, replacing the standard MacBook that Apple dropped.

[Guest]

So... If I understand you well:

• The PCs are business models but are sold to anyone who wants them, so they are not business models...
• The Macs, well.. most of them, even the ones not listed as such are in fact business models so they don't count...

 

I've rarely seen such bad faith in someone... Makes me wonder how many lemmings are running around to give you so many "arguments"...

Such creativity is wasted, obviously.

 

And now I'm off to bed and out of the game. Thanks for proving my point! So much energy wasted...

 

[Drak3]

2 minutes ago, Cora_Lie said:

even the ones not listed as such are in fact business models

Every SKU except the Air has marketing heavily focused on business. The Air is sparse, with the only directly business oriented marketing being the built in apps sections.

 

5 minutes ago, Cora_Lie said:

The PCs are business models but are sold to anyone who wants them, so they are not business models...

Either we can exclude models with business marketing, meaning the only laptops left to pick on are the XPS line (as Dell does explicitly market and sell these laptops as personal machines), The Swift 5 (Acer categorizes the Swift 5 exclusively as a personal computer, the business counterpart is the Swift 5 Pro), and the Air. Of which, we can knock off the XPS as that line falls in both the personal and business categories, and the Air as Apple's Mac division does target the business market in some capacity with EVERY SKU.

 

Or we can gauge these machines by how their respective companies actually treat them. Which is to say: A little bit of both.

 

[Bitter]

9 hours ago, Donut417 said:

In some way yes. But I had one hell of a time getting Plex and my NAS to work with Linux. I mean shit, I didnt know that Plex from the Ubutnu package manager would not read my NAS, and I had to download it directly from the Plex Website. Things like that make people not want to use Linux. Most people want to plug what ever it is in to the computer and have it just work. Not always the case with Linux. 

I agree, for the bulk of users though Linux is a drop in replacement for Windows, it 'facebooks' just the same!

[lostboy]

I'm waiting for probably 2 more builds of OSX Before Apple starts using the T2 to lock out Hackintosh builds. 

 

Sure this would lock out any pre-T2 Macs, but Apple has A LONG history of dropping older machines for "new features". 

[NumLock21]

17 hours ago, Cora_Lie said:

Mac Mini isn't a professional/business model

 

So... 2 out of 4 with T2.,.. 50% are "pro" models, 50% are not...

Why do you think I asked you to name me a PC brand with 50% of their computer products being with TPM and not a business model?

 

Edit: You simply can't compare watermelons with strawberries! You just can't!

Apple's T2 is a like a extremely bossy version of a TPM module, both are designed to do the same thing, to protect user data. But the problem for both is, when they died, then all data are still lost anyway. My HP Envy x360 laptop has a TPM module and it's not even a business model.

[msknight]

I think you can draw a firm line between commercial and personal. Commercial are storing documents, etc. in the cloud and the laptops are basically becoming access conduits and merely sync data already held on servers, so it doesn't matter if they go bang; because they get used so hard it's a regular occurrence in an IT department for a user to bring in a broken laptop/phone, a sheepish look and a pre-approved budget code for the replacement.

 

In the personal environment, that's not the case so much. People keep all their personal photos, etc. on the machines and treat their computer as some kind of weird device that never needs maintenance and will never go wrong. I had my car in for a service and was talking to the engineer about people who seem to forget that even their cars need regular servicing; and he bumped into one customer who seemed shocked when he reminded him that his car hadn't been serviced for five years.

 

The average consumer just doesn't think about things like backups; Apple or not. After all the years I've been in I.T. that seems to be one thing that hasn't changed. People don't seem to think about plugging in a USB drive and copying their files... and that's still the case even after they've just suffered a failure and I've had to recover their system. People just never seem to learn. They seem to be in a mode where they use something and when it dies, throw money at the problem (hey, it keeps me in red wine.) So when the machine dies I've got to spend time ripping out the "hard drive" and get their precious files back. Only in the case of the T2... all I can do is shrug my shoulders and say, "Tough luck."

[msknight]

5 minutes ago, msknight said:

 

Apologies, I hit quote instead of edit.

[NumLock21]

I don't remember if it was a Microsoft Surface or a Dell laptop, but I do remember doing a clean install of Windows, and the first thing I notice was either TPM or Bitlocker was automatically encrypting the drive, as there was a lock icon next to it.

 

It was Dell

https://www.dell.com/community/Inspiron/Secondary-drive-locked-with-Bitlocker-after-factory-reset/td-p/7287337

https://www.dell.com/community/Laptops-General-Read-Only/Bitlocker-auto-enabling-itself-on-a-fresh-Windows-installation/td-p/5080543

https://www.dell.com/community/Inspiron/Can-t-find-and-disable-BitLocker-Drive-Encryption/td-p/6220710

[iamdarkyoshi]

Just a heads up, for those discussing bitlocker, I've got a bit of a curveball for you.

 

Microsoft informed me that contacting the manufacturer of the laptop and providing proof of purchase, serial number, etc will get you a recovery key for that machine's hard drive. Not exactly sure how they would have access to the recovery key, but I can confirm it is possible to get the 48 digit recovery key.

 

I successfully recovered data from one of my customer's HP elitebooks with a failed motherboard (and the icing on the cake was the HDD was on its way out with over 23 million bad sectors) and we're an independent repair shop.

 

So bitlocker data recovery IS possible for both the end user and a repair shop, if you can work with the owner of the laptop to get the recovery key from the manufacturer, in this case, HP. I just plugged the drive into a windows computer via USB, decrypted the drive with the key HP provided us, and then copied files off the drive.