Macbook's T2 Claims Another Victim, Apple Refuses To Honour Warranty

[Donut417]

2 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

So, my desktop is a consumable item as if my PSU goes belly up, it'll also likely kill my drives and mainboard?

Not if you use a quality PSU. Generally if it uses good components and was designed correctly it will just die. With cheap PSU's some times they will allow rouge voltage to kill your other components. 

 

Also its less about failure anyway. This is about Apple not standing behind their product even when they know issues exist. 

[mr moose]

15 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

So, my desktop is a consumable item as if my PSU goes belly up, it'll also likely kill my drives and mainboard?

 

Not by design it's not.  By design you can swap out your parts as often as you want.  In fact by design if the PSU dies it not only can be replaced with an off the shelf alternative but by design it does it's best to protect the other components in the process.    

 

Having a power surge or similar incident  that kills everything is not the same as designing a product that hinges entirely on one chip.  We can't allow for things breaking but in situations like this they can mitigate the effect they have (namely data extraction after a failure). 

[Drak3]

Just now, mr moose said:

By design you can swap out your parts as often as you want.

That's irrelevant. The unlikely failure of a single component can lead me to irreversible data loss and needing a new machine. Just like the MacBook.

 

Only difference is that Apple is refusing to honor warranty in this case.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, Drak3 said:

That's irrelevant. The unlikely failure of a single component can lead me to irreversible data loss and needing a new machine. Just like the MacBook.

 

Only difference is that Apple is refusing to honor warranty in this case.

You are ignoring the fact that the PSU iis designed to do exactly the opposite of this chip, it is designed to protect the other devices as best it can in the event of failure, while the T2 chip renders the machine unusable and the data irretrievable in the event of it's failure (By design).  That's the difference.  All the eggs are in one basket by design.

 

 

[mr moose]

6 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

That's irrelevant. The unlikely failure of a single component can lead me to irreversible data loss and needing a new machine. Just like the MacBook.

 

Only difference is that Apple is refusing to honor warranty in this case.

And just to highlight the difference further,  in the event of a PSU failure it "CAN" lead to a hdd failure but designed not to while In the event of a motherboard or T2 failure it "WILL" lead to data lose.   No ifs buts or maybes.

 

The difference is one is only a possibility that falls outside of design parameters while the other is a guaranteed because of it's design parameters.

[Drak3]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

You are ignoring the fact that the PSU iis designed to do exactly the opposite of this chip

I'm ignoring it because it's irrelevant.

 

Both have the potential to cripple the system to be unusable. Assuming a half decent PSU, neither are high failure parts.

 

 

And if we're going to pretend that this is all about concern over the average user, then every single AiO with a TPM equivalent, meaning many Windows machines as well, are no different. Mainboard dies, you're shit out of luck. TPM dies, you're shit out of luck.

 

But it genuinely seems to be a bad reason to smear Apple, framing a conscious decision to put maximum security over convenience as bad design.

[mr moose]

31 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

Not if you use a quality PSU. Generally if it uses good components and was designed correctly it will just die. With cheap PSU's some times they will allow rouge voltage to kill your other components. 

 

Also its less about failure anyway. This is about Apple not standing behind their product even when they know issues exist. 

 

For me it is about failure, but it's also about design,  A failure that kills an entire PC will happen, not by design but it will happen.  For your average PC the PSU is design to protect the other parts as best it can,  While the T2 chip is designed that the motherboard and ssd are no longer usable in its failure.

[mr moose]

Just now, Drak3 said:

I'm ignoring it because it's irrelevant   Inconvenient.

 

 

 

 

FTFY.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, Drak3 said:

 

And if we're going to pretend that this is all about concern over the average user, then every single AiO with a TPM equivalent, meaning many Windows machines as well, are no different. Mainboard dies, you're shit out of luck. TPM dies, you're shit out of luck.

 

But it genuinely seems to be a bad reason to smear Apple, framing a conscious decision to put maximum security over convenience as bad design.

Any PC with the same design for the average users is just as shit.  I have no problem in calling out any other manufacturer if you can point to one with exactly the same flaw.

 

 

 

 

[NumLock21]

14 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

At least if the TPM dies the machine itself will be still functional. Its way too much of a gamble to trust the t2 chip knowing how bad apple's track record is....  Modern CPU's have HW acceleration for encryption algorithms so there is no point in using a dedicated chip.

Yeah but you still lost all of your data on your hard drive.

I just lost all of my precious data, hey but at least my wifi module is still WORKING!

 

[Drak3]

3 minutes ago, mr moose said:

FTFY.

No, you didn't. Your conjecture is irrelevant.

And your assertion that T2 failure rendering the entire computer beyond repair is also outright wrong.

 

The T2 is a low failure part. Its design prioritizes security. If that means data is unrecoverable in the rare event of failure, it does its job. This is not something for your average user or tech "enthusiast" that is incapable of understanding the idea of other use cases.

 

If you don't have your data backed up, that is ultimately your fault and your responsibility.

 

 

 

 

And to be quite frank, I don't give a shit about Apple not making the T2 easily serviceable. That defeats the purpose, and these machines are far from necessities or the only options on the market.

 

This is just a weak reason to bash Apple.

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

No, you didn't. Your conjecture is irrelevant.

You made a comparison that was not apples to apples.

2 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

And your assertion that T2 failure rendering the entire computer beyond repair is also outright wrong.

 

That's what ithe article claims. Don't blame everyone for being wrong whent he article clearly says that in the failure of a motherboard or T2 chip that data cannot be retrieved.  In the event of either you need a new motherboard and t2 chip.  by that stage it is a new computer as you can't just by a mac motherboard off the shelf.

 

2 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

The T2 is a low failure part. Its design prioritizes security. If that means data is unrecoverable in the rare event of failure, it does its job. This is not something for your average user or tech "enthusiast" that is incapable of understanding the idea of other use cases.

Low failure is still failure, by design it renders the drive unreadable and turns the mobo into a  paper weight.  PERIOD.

If it's not something for your average tech enthusiast (let alone consumer) then they shouldn't be selling it to everyone without notice.

 

2 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

If you don't have your data backed up, that is ultimately your fault and your responsibility.

 

Once you back your data up off the PC then you are just as vulnerable as using any other method of data protection.  Having a PC that can scrap all your data in the event of a failure doesn't make you more safe when your data is backed up elsewhere with the same encryption.

 

2 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

 

 

And to be quite frank, I don't give a shit about Apple not making the T2 easily serviceable. That defeats the purpose, and these machines are far from necessities or the only options on the market.

 

This is just a weak reason to bash Apple.

This basically underpins the arguments many people are making here,  the general consumer does not need all or nothing protection like this,  most methods of encryption offer suitable enough protections without making the data irretrievable in the event of a motherboard failure.

[Thaldor]

20 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

That's irrelevant. The unlikely failure of a single component can lead me to irreversible data loss and needing a new machine. Just like the MacBook.

No. Even in worst cases even with encrypted drives you have possibility for data recovery, with T2-chip zero chances, 100% data loss no matter what is the case. SSD recoveries are expensive as hell, but possible, with T2-chip no amount of money can recover your data. TPM modules do the same thing as T2-chip which is why they are usually not sold with MBs and they are never activated on default (because people are stupid).

 

Also that the T2-chip fucks up your mac in ways that are beyond comprehension. Webcam broke = dead mac because security, microphone fucked up = fucked up mac because security, WiFi card broke and Apple repair costs +800$ while 3rd party could just take the broken module off and put new one in -> impossible because security, PSU died and once again Apple replace +800$ -> impossible for 3rd party to repair because security, whatever fuck decides to fuck up and fry some chip that isn't just a resistor or transistor that doesn't have single bit of smart in it -> FUCKED UP mac, please pay Apple +800$ for repair, oh and also fuck your data, single bit cannot be recovered and Apple is lazy as fuck to do any recovery (even when it was as easy as taking one screw off, pulling gently the SSD out of its socket, put it to the side to a safe place, replace the MB and/or whatever, taking the SSD from the safe place where it was placed, gently push it to the socket and secure it with a screw; Vóla, not a single bit of data was harmed in the process).

[Drak3]

6 minutes ago, mr moose said:

You made a comparison that was not apples to apples.

It's a component failure that cripples a system. Everything beyond that is irrelevant.

 

6 minutes ago, mr moose said:

If it's not something for your average tech enthusiast (let alone consumer) then they shouldn't be selling it to everyone without notice.

They do, when you configure filevault during initial setup.

No different than any other machine that has security as one of the higher priorities.

6 minutes ago, mr moose said:

the general consumer does not need all or nothing protection like this

Then they don't have to buy a Mac.

7 minutes ago, mr moose said:

That's what ithe article claims. Don't blame everyone for being wrong whent he article clearly says that in the failure of a motherboard or T2 chip that data cannot be retrieved.  In the event of either you need a new motherboard and t2 chip.  by that stage it is a new computer as you can't just by a mac motherboard off the shelf

Second source clearly states that data recovery is possible when the failure isn't a total system failure (which is highly unlikely, and in the event that it does happen, it's more likely to be the fault of the user if anything). That's no difference from other systems with semi strong encryption.

[Yongtjunkit]

I wish/ hope that apple would revise their T2 chip, maybe T3 ? With a physical hardware key that a user must keep( in a safe place) for data recovery reason.

 

The T2 chip is useful if you lose your rm10K ( MacBook Air), up to rm 40K MacBook Pro and you can rest assure that they can’t use your Mac at all or even sell it but at least to the original owner make data recovery possible.....

[Thaldor]

8 minutes ago, Schnoz said:

I've posted about this earlier, but according to the official T2 documentation, you only have 180 password attempts to try and unlock a Mac:

-snip-

40 if you don't have additional FileVault encryption enabled (or at least it's recovery mechanisms) (30 normal and then 10 in recovery mode). Still doesn't change anything about T2-chip breaking or tripping.

Spoiler

Seems like many mix up T2-encryption and FileVault. T2 encrypts the whole SSD as default, always, while FileVault can be added on top of T2 as "per user" encryption. Without FileVault every user can access the whole SSD after successful login, while with FileVault they can only access their own files. FileVault is software based (still uses T2-chips build-in ASIC) and as such can be recovered even after total system failure as long as the SSDs memory chips survive and can be placed into donor board. But with T2-encryption the whole SSD is encrypted always with the key residing in T2-chip and there is no way to recover data after T2-chip has died and quite probably even if memory chips and T2-chip survive and can be placed into donor mac the T2-chip will refuse to work because every HWID is different and apparently only one different HWID may trigger the T2-chip to go to "defense" mode and refuse every command (I haven't seen any notions about even Apple being able to reconfigure T2-chips to allow different HWIDs because the usual Apple "repair" is Apple replace where basicly the whole mac is replaced with a new (or refurbished [might not be possible with T2-chips around]) one, only notion towards Apple being able to recover data from T2-chip protected macs is that earlier macs had port in their MB to allow SSD dump (replaced in newer macs, probably some external port) but it can be only used if the mac can power on and can be connected to some data recovery suite).

FileVault good; Because optional and recommended and most importantly recoverable in case of HW failure.

T2-encryption bad; Because forced always on and unrecoverable in case of HW failure.

 

[mr moose]

52 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

It's a component failure that cripples a system. Everything beyond that is irrelevant.

One destroys the computer in the event of failure (by its design), the other is design to protect the computer as best it can in the event of a failure, you are intentionally ignoring important details.

52 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

They do, when you configure filevault during initial setup.

No different than any other machine that has security as one of the higher priorities.

What's that?  something that doesn't address the point that a T2 failure ruins your data and motherboard.

 

52 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Then they don't have to buy a Mac.

How can a consumer make the informed decision not to but any product if they aren't told about the specifics that effect them?

Customers should be informed, Apple have a really bad habit recently of not properly informing their customers of limitations within their products.

 

52 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Second source clearly states that data recovery is possible when the failure isn't a total system failure (which is highly unlikely, and in the event that it does happen, it's more likely to be the fault of the user if anything). That's no difference from other systems with semi strong encryption.

 

Did you intentionally ignore the bit where apple claimed if the motherboard didn't power up or the t2 chip failed then no recovery is possible?

 

Quote

However, if the system’s coprocessor was to fail, or if the logic board was to face detrimental damage, it is unlikely that Apple would be able to recover the data.

 

[Drak3]

Just now, mr moose said:

What's that?  something that doesn't address the point that a T2 failure ruins your data and motherboard.

T2 is what does filevault encryption OTF and key storage.

 

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

Did you intentionally ignore the bit where apple claimed if the motherboard didn't power up or the t2 chip failed then no recovery is possible?

No, you did.

 

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

you are intentionally ignoring important details.

Those details are not important, they're irrelevant. The end result is the same.

[mr moose]

6 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

T2 is what does filevault encryption OTF and key storage.

 

No, you did.

 

Those details are not important, they're irrelevant. The end result is the same.

 

You can't just dismiss something as irrelevant because it is inconvenient.   You tried to claim a product that is designed to protect and make other hardware recoverable is the same as a product that is design to absolutely kill other hardware.   They are by their design polar opposite in their intention.

 

The fact you now claim I am ignoring the very information OI posted to support my claims is perplexing.  Seriously, is your argument just going to be to ignore everything that people are telling you and keep pretending everything is fine?

 

 

[Drak3]

Just now, mr moose said:

They are by their design polar opposite in their intention.

And that is irrelevant as the design of the PSU does not stop this rare event from happening.

 

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

The fact you now claim I am ignoring the very information OI posted to support my claims is perplexing.

You said that failure of these components causes an unusable system. That's partially correct at best and is being used as fear mongering. It takes total failure of these components for that result. Something that is rare and being due to faulty hardware even rarer. So much so to the point that it is comparable to a PSU frying the entire system.

[mr moose]

Just now, Drak3 said:

And that is irrelevant as the design of the PSU does not stop this rare event from happening.

 

You said that failure of these components causes an unusable system. That's partially correct at best and is being used as fear mongering. It takes total failure of these components for that result. Something that is rare and being due to faulty hardware even rarer. So much so to the point that it is comparable to a PSU frying the entire system.

Now you are trying to argue semantics (poor semantics at best).  well done,  there is no partial truth to any of this, if the motherboard won't power on or the T2 chips fails you lose data PERIOD. No more for you, you need a new motherboard and SSD,  end of story.   Good luck with that on a mac. 

 

 

[Drak3]

Just now, mr moose said:

if the motherboard won't power on or the T2 chips fails you lose data PERIOD.

Both of which are rare. One component failure causing the failure of other components is not unique to the MacBook either.

 

So, either apply the judgement to all systems these types of catastrophic events can happen to (meaning ALL of them), or take the reasonable approach that if the data is REALLY that important, regardless of system, it should be backed up.

[JoeCoke]

7 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Now you are trying to argue semantics (poor semantics at best).  well done,  there is no partial truth to any of this, if the motherboard won't power on or the T2 chips fails you lose data PERIOD. No more for you, you need a new motherboard and SSD,  end of story.   Good luck with that on a mac. 

 

 

I'm just glad I gave up arguing about this stuff. Seriously, how is this even up for debate? How can someone not see how shit this is?

 

"LOL SHOULD HAVE BACKED UP, NOT APPLES PROBLEM"

 

"POweR SupPlIEs cAN AlsO cAuSe DaTa LosS so WhAT'S nEw??"

 

"BUT SECUUUUUUUURITYYYYYYYY"

 

The kind of things I've read/heard regarding this subject (here and elsewhere) are pretty mind boggling. Louis couldn't have said it better, these people are literally asking for the treatment they receive from Apple.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

 if the data is REALLY that important, regardless of system, it should be backed up.

Many customers lambda DON'T KNOW HOW to do that!

 

All the Apple ecosystem is designed around the idea that you don't need anything else but what Apple provides to you, that it's simple to use on a daily basis.

YOU know, but you are not the user lambda...

[Drak3]

1 minute ago, Cora_Lie said:

Many customers lambda DON'T KNOW HOW to do that!

OSX defaults to notifying users to use Time Machine if they aren’t already.

 

2 minutes ago, Cora_Lie said:

All the Apple ecosystem is designed around the idea that you don't need anything else but what Apple provides to you

No, it isn’t. The Apple Ecosystem is designed around hiding advanced settings and configurations and only presenting simple alternatives that are easier to setup for the average user.