Macbook's T2 Claims Another Victim, Apple Refuses To Honour Warranty

[mr moose]

34 minutes ago, iamdarkyoshi said:

Just a heads up, for those discussing bitlocker, I've got a bit of a curveball for you.

 

Microsoft informed me that contacting the manufacturer of the laptop and providing proof of purchase, serial number, etc will get you a recovery key for that machine's hard drive. Not exactly sure how they would have access to the recovery key, but I can confirm it is possible to get the 48 digit recovery key.

 

I successfully recovered data from one of my customer's HP elitebooks with a failed motherboard (and the icing on the cake was the HDD was on its way out with over 23 million bad sectors) and we're an independent repair shop.

 

So bitlocker data recovery IS possible for both the end user and a repair shop, if you can work with the owner of the laptop to get the recovery key from the manufacturer, in this case, HP. I just plugged the drive into a windows computer via USB, decrypted the drive with the key HP provided us, and then copied files off the drive.

That sounds like a backdoor, is it?

 

 

[mr moose]

3 hours ago, lostboy said:

I'm waiting for probably 2 more builds of OSX Before Apple starts using the T2 to lock out Hackintosh builds. 

 

Sure this would lock out any pre-T2 Macs, but Apple has A LONG history of dropping older machines for "new features". 

That would cause them to run foul of consumer law in Australia, they would have to release a workaround for Aussie customers.

[iamdarkyoshi]

2 minutes ago, mr moose said:

That sounds like a backdoor, is it?

 

 

In a way, yeah

[jagdtigger]

8 hours ago, NumLock21 said:

Yeah but you still lost all of your data on your hard drive.

I just lost all of my precious data, hey but at least my wifi module is still WORKING!

 

But at least you lost only the hdd not the whole machine pointlessly.... (and if someone dont have backups then they asking for it)

[lostboy]

9 minutes ago, mr moose said:

That would cause them to run foul of consumer law in Australia, they would have to release a workaround for Aussie customers.

How so? They do this every few years. Early Macbook Pros were held back to 10.7 with artificially created "limits". They've been doing this for literally decades, its how they force upgrades. 

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, lostboy said:

How so? They do this every few years. Early Macbook Pros were held back to 10.7 with artificially created "limits". They've been doing this for literally decades, its how they force upgrades. 

It is illegal to prevent a product from working as intended.    Which means any mac book sold in Australia has to be able to do everything one would reasonably expect a computer of it's age to do and do everything it was advertised to do.  

[lostboy]

3 minutes ago, mr moose said:

It is illegal to prevent a product from working as intended.    Which means any mac book sold in Australia has to be able to do everything one would reasonably expect a computer of it's age to do and do everything it was advertised to do.  

Oh right - yes. But they don't have to guarantee UPDATES to the latest OS. They claim that "the 2016 Macbook was never advertised to support Mac 10.15" and they're on their way. 

 

Like I said. They've actually already done this twice in the last 10 years, iMac and Macbook both. (not to mention the crippling of iPads) 

 

It's a great law in concept, but very easy to circumvent

[mr moose]

Just now, lostboy said:

Oh right - yes. But they don't have to guarantee UPDATES to the latest OS. They claim that "the 2016 Macbook was never advertised to support Mac 10.15" and they're on their way. 

 

Like I said. They've actually already done this twice in the last 10 years, iMac and Macbook both. (not to mention the crippling of iPads) 

 

It's a great law in concept, but very easy to circumvent

So long as not receiving updates doesn't cause the machine to stop working as intended they are fine.   

[lostboy]

4 minutes ago, mr moose said:

So long as not receiving updates doesn't cause the machine to stop working as intended they are fine.   

Exactly

 

[vanished]

2 hours ago, mr moose said:

It is illegal to prevent a product from working as intended.    Which means any mac book sold in Australia has to be able to do everything one would reasonably expect a computer of it's age to do and do everything it was advertised to do.  

I can't help but imagine them trying some loophole like "this is what it is now intended to do.  It used to do more but we've redefined that"

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

I can't help but imagine them trying some loophole like "this is what it is now intended to do.  It used to do more but we've redefined that"

Aussie courts would fine them for what we call "taking the piss".    Then fine them again for being c#&t's.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, iamdarkyoshi said:

Just a heads up, for those discussing bitlocker, I've got a bit of a curveball for you.

 

Microsoft informed me that contacting the manufacturer of the laptop and providing proof of purchase, serial number, etc will get you a recovery key for that machine's hard drive. Not exactly sure how they would have access to the recovery key, but I can confirm it is possible to get the 48 digit recovery key.

 

I successfully recovered data from one of my customer's HP elitebooks with a failed motherboard (and the icing on the cake was the HDD was on its way out with over 23 million bad sectors) and we're an independent repair shop.

 

So bitlocker data recovery IS possible for both the end user and a repair shop, if you can work with the owner of the laptop to get the recovery key from the manufacturer, in this case, HP. I just plugged the drive into a windows computer via USB, decrypted the drive with the key HP provided us, and then copied files off the drive.

We run bitlocker on all our laptops. As a corporate customer we can also generate the unlock keys. We used to use BeCrypt which was similar. Moving from one encrypton method to the other was painful for everyone involved from support to the end user. Most would have killed for a backup like Time Machine to be present on these Windows laptops, roughly 10,000 of them in the UK alone.

 

For the average home user, or even repair shot, getting those keys involves many hours of jumping through hoops. The cost of all the time involved in recovering data when this happens, plus the repair bill for the components etc makes little economic sense in many cases, at least at the per hour rates most would charge here in the UK. So given the cost implications I can see more companies going the route that Apple have done. If backups on other platforms become as seamless as Time Machine and the iCloud etc then I am sure it will happen. Laptops are already becoming disposable devices.

 

Now I am not saying this is all a good thing, from an environmental point of view it is far from ideal. It is however the way I see things going. We are at a transition point where the hardware will be disposable and more data will be stored in the cloud etc. Encryption of devices is becoming a big thing with manufacturers at the moment, all looking for more secure methods as a selling point, especially in the corporate world. 

 

How the customer was treated in the initial video was however appalling. I've experienced similar before in all walks of customer service from clothing to tech. Sometimes it is just a matter of taking the same item to a different branch, others it involves using local consumer laws. To me the whole liquid ingress excuse is laid on the customer far too often even if there is no evidence. Usually it is untrained dickheads in the stores trying to protect their bonus. Being firm and asking for the evidence helps. To be fair I did once return an iPhone that had been attacked by an errant bottle of blackcurrant juice. It was noticed by the first Apple store I visited. So I went home, dismantled and cleaned inside the device bleaching the liquid indicators in the process. I returned to another store and they had no hesitation in swapping the unit. In fact the second store didn't even examine the phone and just did the swap.  

[TechyBen]

11 minutes ago, Phill104 said:

Spoiler

 

We run bitlocker on all our laptops. As a corporate customer we can also generate the unlock keys. We used to use BeCrypt which was similar. Moving from one encrypton method to the other was painful for everyone involved from support to the end user. Most would have killed for a backup like Time Machine to be present on these Windows laptops, roughly 10,000 of them in the UK alone.

 

For the average home user, or even repair shot, getting those keys involves many hours of jumping through hoops. The cost of all the time involved in recovering data when this happens, plus the repair bill for the components etc makes little economic sense in many cases, at least at the per hour rates most would charge here in the UK. So given the cost implications I can see more companies going the route that Apple have done. If backups on other platforms become as seamless as Time Machine and the iCloud etc then I am sure it will happen. Laptops are already becoming disposable devices.

 

Now I am not saying this is all a good thing, from an environmental point of view it is far from ideal. It is however the way I see things going. We are at a transition point where the hardware will be disposable and more data will be stored in the cloud etc. Encryption of devices is becoming a big thing with manufacturers at the moment, all looking for more secure methods as a selling point, especially in the corporate world. 

 

How the customer was treated in the initial video was however appalling. I've experienced similar before in all walks of customer service from clothing to tech. Sometimes it is just a matter of taking the same item to a different branch, others it involves using local consumer laws. To me the whole liquid ingress excuse is laid on the customer far too often even if there is no evidence. Usually it is untrained dickheads in the stores trying to protect their bonus. Being firm and asking for the evidence helps. To be fair I did once return an iPhone that had been attacked by an errant bottle of blackcurrant juice. It was noticed by the first Apple store I visited. So I went home, dismantled and cleaned inside the device bleaching the liquid indicators in the process. I returned to another store and they had no hesitation in swapping the unit. In fact the second store didn't even examine the phone and just did the swap.  

 

 

We generally are not talking about data backup though. But bricking the hardware, and *also* data. Like, the system does the worst of both.

 

Why id the components to prevent repairs (as XboxOne does apparently, mentioned in previous posters)? Why not offer a user to decrypt with their password/key (could be backed up to USB as some Windows solutions offer IIRC)?

 

I know they want to prevent access. It's just really really strange they *also* kill the unrelated hardware (cameras, CPU, etc). Trying to defend one, in response to the other (hardware or data), sidesteps Apples clever application here. Make 2 enemies fight it off between each other, to hide the scrupulous scheme.

 

Get the hardware repair places arguing with the data protection/IT staff... while making sure neither can get any jobs done without completely shelling out for a new laptop. If the data just died, the hardware repair shops could just hand a blank laptop back to the user (Apple can use cloud/ID login for stolen hardware ID protection STILL without bricking everything.. because the real user can use their password/login). If they protected the data via known password access, then dead hardware could be swapped out (T2 chip/CPU/etc) and as long as the data chips are ok, then you could recover the drive (or external lifeboat connectors etc). Cars are protected from stolen parts via part numbers... but they don't make the parts explode and self destruct if removed from a car because "it might be stolllllenn!!!!!".

 

By killing off both, you're sending a clear message. Both the data and the hardware are never ever to be accessed. Oh, and "users faul" if it ever fails so please give us $2k again and again.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, TechyBen said:

We generally are not talking about data backup though. But bricking the hardware, and *also* data. Like, the system does the worst of both.

 

Why id the components to prevent repairs (as XboxOne does apparently, mentioned in previous posters)? Why not offer a user to decrypt with their password/key (could be backed up to USB as some Windows solutions offer IIRC)?

 

I know they want to prevent access. It's just really really strange they *also* kill the unrelated hardware (cameras, CPU, etc). Trying to defend one, in response to the other (hardware or data), sidesteps Apples clever application here. Make 2 enemies fight it off between each other, to hide the scrupulous scheme.

 

Get the hardware repair places arguing with the data protection/IT staff... while making sure neither can get any jobs done without completely shelling out for a new laptop. If the data just died, the hardware repair shops could just hand a blank laptop back to the user (Apple can use cloud/ID login for stolen hardware ID protection STILL without bricking everything.. because the real user can use their password/login). If they protected the data via known password access, then dead hardware could be swapped out (T2 chip/CPU/etc) and as long as the data chips are ok, then you could recover the drive (or external lifeboat connectors etc). Cars are protected from stolen parts via part numbers... but they don't make the parts explode and self destruct if removed from a car because "it might be stolllllenn!!!!!".

 

By killing off both, you're sending a clear message. Both the data and the hardware are never ever to be accessed. Oh, and "users faul" if it ever fails so please give us $2k again and again.

I come from the enterprise world where $2 would not even be a spec on the radar. It is a different environment, one where priorities are different. To the home user I do fully appreciate that it is harsh to be treated this way. Here in Europe, as well as Australia and some other parts of the world the strong consumer laws are on our side. Seems to me that the US is lacking in some ways, relying on individuals taking out law suits and the like. It feels from our perspective that US customers are in a weaker position against big companies so quite rightly have to make a lot more noise about it.

[Guest]

@Phill104 and @TechyBen

 

The more I think about it, the more I can't help but think that a philosophical shift has to happen.

 

Yes Phill104, I agree with you when you say the the entreprise world thinks differently. But the consumers too...

The enterprise world thinks in terms of "Is it financially interesting to do this or that?".

The consumer will ask "Is it in my immediate interest (money, easy usability, less hassle possible, etc.) to buy this or that?"

Now we will feel a new pressure: "Is it ecologically responsible to do this or that?"

 

I can imagine the or the as I used the terrible "E" word... ^o^

 

But yes... There is a school of thought that has been in place for decades, leading enterprises and people to think that things are easily replaceable. But Companies, Countries and People have to be held accountable of their ways of consumption.

And it is starting... The countries where "we", western countries,  used to send our garbage, all our garbage whether it is a washing machine, a  computer, the aluminum of the latest bag of crisps we ate or the plastic bottle of milk, some of these countries start to send us back our garbage by boat.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/31/philippines-puts-69-containers-of-rubbish-on-boat-back-to-canada

https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/india-plastic-waste-ban-recycling-uk-china-a8811696.html

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/burning-truth-behind-e-waste-dump-africa-180957597/

 

We are complaining that computers are starting to be more expensive again, but when I see some people throwing away their computer or their phones litterally in the garbage (and when you know how much it contains in term of rare earths, rare metals...) instead of bringing it to a recycle center just because they need to PAY to have it recycled.

 

If companies are also held accountable for this kind of attitude (less expensive to send their old computers in Asia or Africa) than to give them in a recycle center or to give them away for them to be refurbished in order to give them to elderly homes, schools, poor centers, etc.

 

There is definitely one line missing on the check, and that's the "ecological accountability" one.

 

And the line of the "it's the customer's fault"? That reminds me a little sentence said in 2004 on TV by the CEO of TF1 (french TV media group). He said: "Our job (TV medias) is to sell "available human brain time" to Coca-Cola (or any other company who pays for advertisement) !" ".

And then you have the CEO of Coca-Cola who in a speech says that it's the consumer's responsability to drink or not their products, and on the other hand you have all these advertisements all around pushing for carbonated, sweet drinks... I mean... This is just mind-blowing.

And this line of defense is spreading like fire among companies as a way to say "We're not responsible!".

So yes, on one side it is the consumer's responsability to say "No!" but on the other side, it's the companies responsabilities to make real informative advertisement, and not sexy, brain-washing border-line lying, advertisement, like they did for so long!

And in that regard the WHOLE Society (as in civilization) is responsible... Civil Society didn't do its job and has been circumvented by financial greed from companies without being held responsible for their acts.

 

Yes, I know I won't be popular here for saying that. But as I said in another post, the world is vast...
And in many ways I'm sorry that I had to breach this subject, as... yes, it is very closely linked to the main topic of this thread. It all comes back on the way you consider your customer and the consequences which result from that behavior.

 

And if my post is removed by mods, so be it ^o^

 

 

 

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Cora_Lie said:

@Phill104 and @TechyBen

 

 

Now we will feel a new pressure: "Is it ecologically responsible to do this or that?"

 

I can imagine the or the as I used the terrible "E" word... ^o^

 

 

 

 

 

If you look at my previous post I too mentioned the ecological impact. Being a pinko vegan weirdo into all things environmental it is something high on my list. On the plus side, Apple do seem to offer lots of rebate options on devices so they can supposedly recycle them. On the other side, security has made some items more disposable. 

[TechyBen]

2 hours ago, Phill104 said:

I come from the enterprise world where $2 would not even be a spec on the radar. It is a different environment, one where priorities are different. To the home user I do fully appreciate that it is harsh to be treated this way. Here in Europe, as well as Australia and some other parts of the world the strong consumer laws are on our side. Seems to me that the US is lacking in some ways, relying on individuals taking out law suits and the like. It feels from our perspective that US customers are in a weaker position against big companies so quite rightly have to make a lot more noise about it.

$2 or $2k? In the enterprise world you swallow your pride. As a consumer, you can chose not to be taken for a ride (I've watched massive companies I've worked for sail off the edge of the world, just because the golden parachutes and "pretend it's normal" attitude to keep the gravy train going. That does not mean it's right, or that it should be supported).

 

For a consumer, selling them a $2k device, the device failing due to manufacturing defects, failing to offer repair/replacement, *blocking* physical third party (or any type) repair, and then icing on the cake, not offering the consumer (read, not "thieves") recovery options of data is just the last straw. (As said, AFAIK, there are encryption and protection options that don't lock out the data, but are more complex for the user, longer passwords, or less secure, retry attempts not blocked).

[Guest]

1 hour ago, TechyBen said:

$2 or $2k? In the enterprise world you swallow your pride. As a consumer, you can chose not to be taken for a ride (I've watched massive companies I've worked for sail off the edge of the world, just because the golden parachutes and "pretend it's normal" attitude to keep the gravy train going. That does not mean it's right, or that it should be supported).

 

For a consumer, selling them a $2k device, the device failing due to manufacturing defects, failing to offer repair/replacement, *blocking* physical third party (or any type) repair, and then icing on the cake, not offering the consumer (read, not "thieves") recovery options of data is just the last straw. (As said, AFAIK, there are encryption and protection options that don't lock out the data, but are more complex for the user, longer passwords, or less secure, retry attempts not blocked).

Failing due to manufacturing defect is covered here, and that is my point. It is quite easy here to take retailers to task. We have many avenues. As a start we have the BBC and because of the unique way it is funded it does not have to worry about upsetting advertisers. As such we have numerous consumer radio and tv shows that not only offer advice, but in the case of radio shows will deal with retailers on your behalf. We have strong consumer protection laws too, good must be of reasonable quality, fit for the purpose and last a reasonable length of time. So if a £2k laptop failed three years down the line we would have avenues to claim down. Finally, purchasing via credit card means the credit card company are jointly liable. It all adds up to a decent level of protection here and in much of the EU. Australia have similar laws to protect its consumers. Sadly the same is not true of every country. To me it does sound like retailers can get away with a lot more in the US.

[jagdtigger]

3 hours ago, Cora_Lie said:

Now we will feel a new pressure: "Is it ecologically responsible to do this or that?" 

Well most new consumer stuff aint ecological. Nor any new car no matter what buzzwords they use... Why? Simply because making stuff that actually lasts for a long time isnt profitable.

Edited August 5, 2019 by jagdtigger

[Guest]

3 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

Well most new consumer stuff aint ecological. Nor any new car no matter what buzzwords they use... Why? Simply because making stuff that actually lasts for a long time isnt profitable.

That's why I'm saying there is the need of a paradigm shift...

 

[dalekphalm]

4 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

Well most new consumer stuff aint ecological. Nor any new car no matter what buzzwords they use... Why? Simply because making stuff that actually lasts for a long time isnt profitable.

In terms of cars, modern cars are quite reliable and unless you get a lemon, generally last well over 10 years if you keep it that long. 

[TechyBen]

5 hours ago, Phill104 said:

Failing due to manufacturing defect is covered here, and that is my point. It is quite easy here to take retailers to task. We have many avenues. As a start we have the BBC and because of the unique way it is funded it does not have to worry about upsetting advertisers. As such we have numerous consumer radio and tv shows that not only offer advice, but in the case of radio shows will deal with retailers on your behalf. We have strong consumer protection laws too, good must be of reasonable quality, fit for the purpose and last a reasonable length of time. So if a £2k laptop failed three years down the line we would have avenues to claim down. Finally, purchasing via credit card means the credit card company are jointly liable. It all adds up to a decent level of protection here and in much of the EU. Australia have similar laws to protect its consumers. Sadly the same is not true of every country. To me it does sound like retailers can get away with a lot more in the US.

"Sorry, water damage". As said. All these things, at the same time, makes this an untenable situation. If the T2 chip fails within 12 months, replace the product, don't pretend it's user error. As you say, we have in the UK "fit for purpose". If a laptop is made where just using it, causes it to fail (board flex, heat, air humidity), then it's not a laptop... it's an environment tester strip. laugh 

 

[edit]

As said, I don't disagree with the security aspect of it. They do it in the iPhones and "secure enclave" type stuff. I just see extending that to parts (screen, webcam etc), starts to become worrisome... why are they that concerned about those parts too.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, TechyBen said:

"Sorry, water damage". As said. All these things, at the same time, makes this an untenable situation. If the T2 chip fails within 12 months, replace the product, don't pretend it's user error. As you say, we have in the UK "fit for purpose". If a laptop is made where just using it, causes it to fail (board flex, heat, air humidity), then it's not a laptop... it's an environment tester strip. laugh 

 

[edit]

As said, I don't disagree with the security aspect of it. They do it in the iPhones and "secure enclave" type stuff. I just see extending that to parts (screen, webcam etc), starts to become worrisome... why are they that concerned about those parts too.

Consoles are the same in some ways. Some of them you cannot change the one part that is mechanical, the dvd drive. The manufacturers have got us by the curliest of curly hairs at times.

[Kisai]

On 8/2/2019 at 10:43 PM, mr moose said:

Irretrievable data and being at the mercy of apple for all repairs is just another reason never to buy such a computer.    Plenty of more than adequate alternatives out there.

 

 

I jest, but if a repair person can not get around the T2 chip, then the Apple machines might be good enough to be "un-hack-able"... just beat the user with a $5 wrench to get their password.

 

 

With that said, this "might" be a good idea for a laptop that is lost, or stolen during travelling. It does not make a lick of sense for a desktop, nor does it make sense for laptops that are essentially just portable desktops in an office.

 

At my office, when I reimage machines, I've been having to turn the TPM and secure-boot on on the machines for the image to succeed. I can turn either off (since the BIOS is not password protected) and defeat the secure boot and the tpm.

 

But rarely is any machine using the TPM.

 

My guess here, is that this is probably going to eventually result in a court action where Apple has to justify what the T2 does, and might be forced to weaken or disable it by default, having the user turn it on as an option. If they turn it on, their data will not be retrievable, and their machine can not be repaired, period (and should not be charged for AppleCare. )If they opt not to turn it on, their machine is covered by AppleCare, and can be repaired, even by a third party.

 

 

[tridy]

On 8/5/2019 at 8:54 AM, mr moose said:

That sounds like a backdoor, is it?

 

 

On 8/5/2019 at 8:57 AM, iamdarkyoshi said:

In a way, yeah

 

And obviously T2 chip is not a backdoor, right? Like if Apple gets their hands on one and need to see inside, they would not be "able to bypass" T2? In the same way Microsoft has everything encrypted on your account and only you can see your 48 digits key.

 

Unless YOU are the one who is controlling the security/encryption, there is always a possibility there is a "backdoor".

 

You can even decrypt a Bitlocked drive from another OS:

https://www.m3datarecovery.com/bitlocker-drive-data-recovery/access-bitlocker-encrypted-drive-on-another-computer.html

 

The encryption mechanism should always be open sourced and available for everyone to use and analyze. This is your password that makes it secure. This is like not releasing the schematics of the motherboards so no one could repair them.

 

We have strong enough machines that can do encryption on the software level. There is even no need to encrypt the whole drive. Like someone would benefit from seeing the OS system files that are the same on every machine?