Posted July 28, 2019 I was watching Gamers Nexus' newest video with der8auer discussing thermal compounds and misconceptions behind them. Der8auer snapped and addressed the whole air bubble Mandela effect circling around the thermal compound application discussion. Timestampes included: Quote One thing I really like is the air bubble effect people are saying, so you're spreading your thermal paste across the whole surface and then you're putting your cooler on and then they're saying 'but if you put your cooler on, there's air bubbles between the CPU and the cooler it will lead to bad performance.' - 11:37 The air bubble comment, that's complete bullshit. If you imagine how much pressure the cooler is putting onto your CPU, there's just no air between your CPU and your cooler. - 12:04 It doesn't matter if you spread it or not, no air bubbles, that's complete bullshit. - 12:21 Steve even backed up der8auer by saying that if there were air bubbles, then there'd be no point to even applying thermal compound in the first place. Quote Well that's the whole point of thermal paste, is to fill the small gaps, right? So, it wouldn't work if that were true. - 12:17 Personally as a spreader, and someone who avidly uses Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut, that I can back it up that spreading doesn't degrade thermal performance nor does it create any sort of bubble effect. What does everyone else think about the air bubble discussion? Video: mechanical keyboard switches aficionado & hi-fi audio enthusiast switch reviews • how i lube mx-style keyboard switches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted July 28, 2019 I've done pea sized dots, spread, multiple lines and dots (threadripper) and rice grain sized dots (laptops) and I've never seen a system have issues because of paste application. For the crazy LN2 OC stuff, it might matter, but for regular gamer/surfing Joe, it's not a big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted July 28, 2019 39 minutes ago, seoz said: Personally as a spreader, and someone who avidly uses Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut, that I can back it up that spreading doesn't degrade thermal performance nor does it create any sort of bubble effect. What does everyone else think about the air bubble discussion? If you test pastes, if you MAKE pastes, you should hopefully know what you are doing, Kryonaut is thick and sticky, der8auer spreads it, so I just do the same. I mean it comes with a spreading tool... Insert ram related question here: https://linustechtips.com/main/topic/1197132-setting-ram-speed-xmp-docp-for-dummies/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted July 28, 2019 If you spread too thin, way too thin, you'll end up with gaps, you need to make sure there's enough there to fill the voids. I've spread too thin myself several times in the past and had to re-apply paste. Now I spread to make sure all things are covered then do a dot or two to make sure there's enough to fill voids. Direct touch heat pipe coolers respond better to a thin line where each heat pipe is located, other coolers don't care much. And honestly I've had some abysmal paste application work just fine for long periods of time because the heat load just wasn't that much that it ever mattered a lot. When I'm building a system or flashing a BIOS I just put a dot on the CPU and smoosh a cooler down on it and let it rest with gravity to make sure everything works. Crude but 'good nuff'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted July 29, 2019 I tried spreading with Kryonaut but it wouldn't spread for me and I couldn't get a good thin layer across the whole cpu before the tube ran out. It was the small tube on Amazon. So I gave up and went back to Noctua paste and doing the big dot in center, 1 dot on each corner application. Truthfully I think most of the benefit is psychological, the perfect dot, the perfect spread, knowing you used the "Good Stuff". Also, Noctua now makes wet wipes for cleaning thermal paste off CPUs which is totally awesome. Got a few with the Noctua paste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted July 29, 2019 Author 36 minutes ago, Chett_Manly said: I tried spreading with Kryonaut but it wouldn't spread for me and I couldn't get a good thin layer across the whole cpu before the tube ran out. It was the small tube on Amazon. You bought the 1g tube? From experience, you need 90% of the tube if you intend to spread it. It's expensive stuff but it performs like a champ. mechanical keyboard switches aficionado & hi-fi audio enthusiast switch reviews • how i lube mx-style keyboard switches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted July 29, 2019 12 minutes ago, seoz said: You bought the 1g tube? From experience, you need 90% of the tube if you intend to spread it. It's expensive stuff but it performs like a champ. Well I think I needed 125% for my 3900X. I'm thinking of getting a new case, might remount the CPU when I do that, so I might try it again, and get the bigger tube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted July 29, 2019 1 hour ago, Bitter said: If you spread too thin, way too thin, you'll end up with gaps, you need to make sure there's enough there to fill the voids. I've spread too thin myself several times in the past and had to re-apply paste. Now I spread to make sure all things are covered then do a dot or two to make sure there's enough to fill voids. Direct touch heat pipe coolers respond better to a thin line where each heat pipe is located, other coolers don't care much. And honestly I've had some abysmal paste application work just fine for long periods of time because the heat load just wasn't that much that it ever mattered a lot. When I'm building a system or flashing a BIOS I just put a dot on the CPU and smoosh a cooler down on it and let it rest with gravity to make sure everything works. Crude but 'good nuff'. How thin are you talking? i mean as long as you cant see the heat spreader its fine. Kryonaut is really thick goop anyway. Insert ram related question here: https://linustechtips.com/main/topic/1197132-setting-ram-speed-xmp-docp-for-dummies/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted July 29, 2019 20 minutes ago, seoz said: You bought the 1g tube? From experience, you need 90% of the tube if you intend to spread it. It's expensive stuff but it performs like a champ. i'm yet to see a head to head test vs NT-H2. Insert ram related question here: https://linustechtips.com/main/topic/1197132-setting-ram-speed-xmp-docp-for-dummies/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted July 29, 2019 eeeeeh, I just put 5 small glob, 4 in each corner and 1 in the middle. When I lift the cooler, the paste completely cover up the heat spreader, no need to manually spread it... But if that's your jam, I ain't judging. Even a single large glob in the middle is good enough. Of course there's no air bubble and even if there was one, it'd literally not make any difference as they'd be microscopic anyway. (no way a large air bubble can form under there due to the pressure) CPU: AMD Ryzen 3700x / GPU: Asus Radeon RX 6750XT OC 12GB / RAM: Corsair Vengeance LPX 2x8GB DDR4-3200 MOBO: MSI B450m Gaming Plus / NVME: Corsair MP510 240GB / Case: TT Core v21 / PSU: Seasonic 750W / OS: Win 10 Pro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted July 29, 2019 2 minutes ago, TrigrH said: How thin are you talking? i mean as long as you cant see the heat spreader its fine. Kryonaut is really thick goop anyway. Super thin, evidentially. Enough to cover an IHS and not read the text but not thick enough to fill the voids between it and the cooler, it's possible as I've done it several times. I did it recently with a water block on an old Xeon processor, was getting high temps but not alarmingly high considering the block is rated for 200W and I was pushing 380W through the CPU. When I took the water block off I could see a big void in the center where there was no paste contact, both the block and CPU IHS are "flat". I'm sure if I lapped the CPU IHS it wouldn't have been an issue but I'm not about to spend an hour lapping a $30 CPU that's handily outperformed by a $120 i7 using 1/4 the wattage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted July 29, 2019 So when it comes to TIM you have to remember that while it conducts heat much better than Air it is still way less effective than metal. So you want as thin a spread as you can manage to fill all the micro gaps and imperfections. Now you can add too much, but thanks to higher mount pressure the majority of that excess TIM gets pushed out the sides. I mean yes a perfect application can yield slightly better temps, but as long as you apply it even close to correctly the temp variance is very small. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted July 29, 2019 I'm curious about the absolute necessity to cover the heat spreader when the die is under a portion of it. I figure a bulk of the heat transfer is going to be concentrated on that one spot and decays exponentially from there. I mean, this is like in the milligrams of savings, but I'm curious if it makes much of a difference. I have a blog! And a list of guides I've posted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted July 29, 2019 5 hours ago, TheGlenlivet said: I've done pea sized dots, spread, multiple lines and dots (threadripper) and rice grain sized dots (laptops) and I've never seen a system have issues because of paste application. Agreed. I've done most of the application methods there are(short of threadripper and the verge), never had any problems with any of them. Quote or tag me( @Crunchy Dragon) if you want me to see your reply If a post solved your problem/answered your question, please consider marking it as "solved" Community Standards // Join Floatplane! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted July 29, 2019 Not spreading the paste will lead to less surface area covered, even if there would be air bubbles tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted July 29, 2019 I've always spread paste across entire IHS before CPU cooler mounting to ensure every bit is covered. Not once I cared about mythical air bubbles or ever had any issues with cooling because of it. I just never trust the "pea size" dose to cover everything. Super thin layer of paste across entire IHS, works every single time without exception for last 20 years I've been assembling PC's myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted July 29, 2019 1 hour ago, floofer said: Not spreading the paste will lead to less surface area covered, even if there would be air bubbles tbh. Not necessarily. I've never really had an issue with paste not covering the entire CPU when I use the pea method. There's enough force between the cooler and the CPU to spread the paste out pretty well. Specs: CPU - Intel i7 8700K @ 5GHz | GPU - Gigabyte GTX 970 G1 Gaming | Motherboard - ASUS Strix Z370-G WIFI AC | RAM - XPG Gammix DDR4-3000MHz 32GB (2x16GB) | Main Drive - Samsung 850 Evo 500GB M.2 | Other Drives - 7TB/3 Drives | CPU Cooler - Corsair H100i Pro | Case - Fractal Design Define C Mini TG | Power Supply - EVGA G3 850W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted July 29, 2019 nowadays I liquid metal almost everything .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted July 29, 2019 On non extreme CPUs, it does literally not matter AT ALL, as long as it's not too little. On extreme CPUs, I don't know. LTT made a video on it. All methods had basically the same temperature except for the one that was too little. Doesn't matter if it was one dot, multiple, or spread. If it's too much the extra just get squished out on the sides, and you only have to care about that if it's conductive. I just do one dot in the middle, simply because it takes less work/time. Why spend extra work/time on something that literally does not matter? “Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Try to make sense of what you see and wonder about what makes the universe exist. Be curious. And however difficult life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at. It matters that you don't just give up.” -Stephen Hawking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted July 29, 2019 If air bubbles are not an issue why do we need to reapply every time? If just whipping off to do something quick can’t you just put it right back down? As long as it didn’t pick up any dirt etc? Like to check it has spread properly? i5 8600 - RX580 - Fractal Nano S - 1080p 144Hz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted July 29, 2019 I'm the non-spreader crew, I just put a blob in the middle and twist the block a little as I set it down, spreads just fine. I'm pretty sure my purpose in life is to serve as a warning for others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted July 29, 2019 1 hour ago, NineEyeRon said: If air bubbles are not an issue why do we need to reapply every time? If just whipping off to do something quick can’t you just put it right back down? As long as it didn’t pick up any dirt etc? Like to check it has spread properly? If it's freshly applied I just put the cooler right back down, but if the paste is old and has changed in consistency I reapply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted July 29, 2019 The consensus is it doesn't matter if there are air bubbles in regards to temperature. But I was shocked by how easily he completely dismissed any possibility of air bubbles being under there at all. I mean, there's got to be some under there, right? It's not like they wiggle their way out just because of pressure or heat. Some amount of air by any quantity has to be trapped. Just doesn't make sense according to physics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted July 29, 2019 4 hours ago, ChintzyPC said: The consensus is it doesn't matter if there are air bubbles in regards to temperature. But I was shocked by how easily he completely dismissed any possibility of air bubbles being under there at all. I mean, there's got to be some under there, right? It's not like they wiggle their way out just because of pressure or heat. Some amount of air by any quantity has to be trapped. Just doesn't make sense according to physics. Air is pretty darn compressible, small bubbles would be compressed down to essentially nothing assuming that the air doesn't just get pushed out the sides as you mount because no mount goes down perfectly flat, that little angle will always push air out and away. Someone needs to sacrifice a dead board and make a clear dummy CPU, I have a dead board but can't make a glass CPU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted July 29, 2019 I have knock off paste, Arctic Silver Pastes, CoolerMaster pastes, and TG Kryo. Since using TG Kryo I spread all pastes the same...spread it first. I even use my Kryo spreader. My temps with Kryo are absolutely noticeably the best by a few degree C. The other pastes are relatively similar whether I spread or not, but with the spread I ensure as even of coating as possible and I get great results. There is no air bubble, or at least, no air bubble worth worrying about because your problem is MUCH larger than an air bubble if you are using Thermal Paste and an Air bubble is causing performance issues. Workstation Laptop: Dell Precision 7540, Xeon E-2276M, 32gb DDR4, Quadro T2000 GPU, 4k display Wifes Rig: ASRock B550m Riptide, Ryzen 5 5600X, Sapphire Nitro+ RX 6700 XT, 16gb (2x8) 3600mhz V-Color Skywalker RAM, ARESGAME AGS 850w PSU, 1tb WD Black SN750, 500gb Crucial m.2, DIYPC MA01-G case My Rig: ASRock B450m Pro4, Ryzen 5 3600, ARESGAME River 5 CPU cooler, EVGA RTX 2060 KO, 16gb (2x8) 3600mhz TeamGroup T-Force RAM, ARESGAME AGV750w PSU, 1tb WD Black SN750 NVMe Win 10 boot drive, 3tb Hitachi 7200 RPM HDD, Fractal Design Focus G Mini custom painted. NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2060 video card benchmark result - AMD Ryzen 5 3600,ASRock B450M Pro4 (3dmark.com) Daughter 1 Rig: ASrock B450 Pro4, Ryzen 7 1700 @ 4.2ghz all core 1.4vCore, AMD R9 Fury X w/ Swiftech KOMODO waterblock, Custom Loop 2x240mm + 1x120mm radiators in push/pull 16gb (2x8) Patriot Viper CL14 2666mhz RAM, Corsair HX850 PSU, 250gb Samsun 960 EVO NVMe Win 10 boot drive, 500gb Samsung 840 EVO SSD, 512GB TeamGroup MP30 M.2 SATA III SSD, SuperTalent 512gb SATA III SSD, CoolerMaster HAF XM Case. https://www.3dmark.com/3dm/37004594? Daughter 2 Rig: ASUS B350-PRIME ATX, Ryzen 7 1700, Sapphire Nitro+ R9 Fury Tri-X, 16gb (2x8) 3200mhz V-Color Skywalker, ANTEC Earthwatts 750w PSU, MasterLiquid Lite 120 AIO cooler in Push/Pull config as rear exhaust, 250gb Samsung 850 Evo SSD, Patriot Burst 240gb SSD, Cougar MX330-X Case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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