Dr Su will present Zen 2 and Navi at Computex 2019 (May 27th)

[Jito463]

58 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I just referred to my PC history as evidence of my unbiased approach to any brand.

I know, I was saying that I am biased (admittedly so), yet still willing to admit to their flaws.  It was meant to be a contrasting opinion while still agreeing with you in certain regards.

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, Jito463 said:

I know, I was saying that I am biased (admittedly so), yet still willing to admit to their flaws.  It was meant to be a contrasting opinion while still agreeing with you in certain regards.

And that is perfectly acceptable,  I have no issues if people want to have a specific brand for what ever reason, after all it is their reason not mine or anyone else's.  

[Humbug]

11 hours ago, Cash091 said:

Really hoping we get 2080Ti level of performance or better at a $650-700 price point. I have SLI 980's and I really want to move to a single card solution.  Thing is, I don't want to sacrifice performance when both cards are being used. 

You will have to wait until 2020 for this. i.e. high end Navi or Nvidia Ampere, both 7nm...

 

4 hours ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

Worse yet, AMD sees NVIDIA's pricing as justification for charging higher than what people expect.

Yep, I'm sure they never planned on even launching the Radeon 7. They thought that RTX 2080 level performance would be in the $500 dollar range and that there was no point even trying. Then the RTX 2080 was $700 and Navi wasn't ready so they thought well might as well sell a few instinct chips for gaming and try to stay relevant.

 

In the past we have seen AMD undercutting Nvidia's pricing, this time they just followed. Hopefully it was only because of the limited supply and high costs, if they keep doing that then goodbye pc gaming.

[mr moose]

4 hours ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

Worse yet, AMD sees NVIDIA's pricing as justification for charging higher than what people expect.

I thought AMD's latest effort was in the ball park of legitimate for it's cost to get to market? 

[cj09beira]

4 hours ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

Worse yet, AMD sees NVIDIA's pricing as justification for charging higher than what people expect.

you only have one case of that which is the vega series, which are the gpus with one of the highest mill of materials cost on the market (at least at launch), they weren't cheap because they couldn't be cheap

13 minutes ago, Humbug said:

You will have to wait until 2020 for this. i.e. high end Navi or Nvidia Ampere, both 7nm...

 

Yep, I'm sure they never planned on even launching the Radeon 7. They thought that RTX 2080 level performance would be in the $500 dollar range and that there was no point even trying. Then the RTX 2080 was $700 and Navi wasn't ready so they thought well might as well sell a few instinct chips for gaming and try to stay relevant.

 

In the past we have seen AMD undercutting Nvidia's pricing, this time they just followed. Hopefully it was only because of the limited supply and high costs, if they keep doing that then goodbye pc gaming.

2020, na look at this: 

almost 2080 ti performance for 200 bucks what more could we want

 

(/s)

[Mira Yurizaki]

5 hours ago, mr moose said:

I thought AMD's latest effort was in the ball park of legitimate for it's cost to get to market? 

A lot of what I've seen references only how much the HBM stacks were. And the only thing that comes close to an actual BOM is from Fudzilla who hid behind the "our industry sources" claim. Though I will bite that producing for 7nm could also account for a large part of it since everyone was having cost issues.

 

There is, allegedly, a more or less complete BOM for the R9 Fury at http://electroiq.com/insights-from-leading-edge/2016/03/, whom they got from a company called Systems Plus Consulting.

 

 

 

[mr moose]

15 minutes ago, Jack_of_all_Trades said:

Why there not leaks yet ?

AMD's marketing team now work for Intel.

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

My PC is probably the least biased one here.  AMD CPU, Intel Networking, and AMD GPUs.  Heck, my fiancee's PC has all that and both an AMD and Nvidia GPU.

I have about 8 PC's regularly in use with only 2 Nvidia products, 1 was intentionally bought the other was a GPU in a laptop that was actually given to me.

[ravenshrike]

5 hours ago, Jack_of_all_Trades said:

Why there not leaks yet ?

Because the Zen release marketing team finally got control of graphics department marketing. Which means as little information released as possible except to keep interest piqued and to stomp out as many leaks as possible to keep the competition guessing.

[Cash091]

On 4/17/2019 at 8:49 PM, COTG said:

yea not gonna happen

I can dream.... 

[Neftex]

2 hours ago, ravenshrike said:

Because the Zen release marketing team finally got control of graphics department marketing. Which means as little information released as possible except to keep interest piqued and to stomp out as many leaks as possible to keep the competition guessing.

what are you talking about? theres ton of leaks on zen

[mr moose]

3 hours ago, ravenshrike said:

Because the Zen release marketing team finally got control of graphics department marketing. Which means as little information released as possible except to keep interest piqued and to stomp out as many leaks as possible to keep the competition guessing.

The competition aren't guessing, they both know what they other is capable of. 

[RejZoR]

33 minutes ago, mr moose said:

The competition aren't guessing, they both know what they other is capable of. 

Intel wasn't when AMD dropped the Ryzen to the market

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Intel wasn't when AMD dropped the Ryzen to the market

I know a lot of people believe that and that makes it funny, but the reality is there is a difference between seeing something coming that you can't do anything about,   and not seeing something coming then not doing anything about it.   If Intel's reaction was to release x299 in all it's messed up iterations and half finished add-on features (at a cost), then they clearly weren't sandbagging and either weren't worried about ryzen or at the very least couldn't do anything about it.

 

I personally believe Intel had a very good idea what was coming.  Just like AMD know what Nvidia is about to release and when. 

 

[JoostinOnline]

2 hours ago, mr moose said:

The competition aren't guessing, they both know what they other is capable of. 

Allegedly. Don't pretend you are aware of the amount of espionage companies commit.

[ravenshrike]

3 hours ago, Neftex said:

what are you talking about? theres ton of leaks on zen

There's leaks that have been all over the place regarding Zen 2, many contradictory because they're not coming primarily from within AMD. What you don't have are the official leaks meant to hype up a product in conjunction with public marketing like what happened with the first Vega.

2 hours ago, mr moose said:

The competition aren't guessing, they both know what they other is capable of. 

Intel had no idea that Zen 1 would be a 50+% increase long before the general public if at all and the specifics of Threadripper were completely out of left field for them. The leaks that are happening are coming from manufacturing partners for things like motherboards which is why they are much more nebulous.

[Master Disaster]

5 minutes ago, JoostinOnline said:

Allegedly. Don't pretend you are aware of the amount of espionage companies commit.

Nope. It's not exactly a secret that companies will have engineering samples from competitors in their labs months before release dates.

[JoostinOnline]

1 minute ago, Master Disaster said:

Nope. It's not exactly a secret that companies will have engineering samples from competitors in their labs months before release dates.

Can you provide me with regular examples?

[Master Disaster]

16 minutes ago, JoostinOnline said:

Can you provide me with regular examples?

Can you provide me with any examples of the NSA spying on people? Doesn't mean it doesn't happen and it doesn't mean people in the know aren't aware of it. You're asking for examples of something that by it's very nature is done in secret.

 

A certain amount of espionage is expected and accounted for in any product that's being sampled before it's official release. You think Sony and Microsoft don't expect the other to have hands on next gen Dev kits already? Any company sending out pre release samples is very aware the competition is going to see the product and claiming otherwise is very much like the child who thinks nobody can see him because he covers his own eyes.

 

[mr moose]

33 minutes ago, JoostinOnline said:

Allegedly. Don't pretend you are aware of the amount of espionage companies commit.

Huh, keep your head in the sand if you want but I have experienced it first hand. 

 

27 minutes ago, ravenshrike said:

 

Intel had no idea that Zen 1 would be a 50+% increase long before the general public if at all and the specifics of Threadripper were completely out of left field for them. The leaks that are happening are coming from manufacturing partners for things like motherboards which is why they are much more nebulous.

They knew.  They knew a lot more than you or I did and they know lot more than you or I think they know.

[JoostinOnline]

35 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Can you provide me with any examples of the NSA spying on people? Doesn't mean it doesn't happen and it doesn't mean people in the know aren't aware of it. You're asking for examples of something that by it's very nature is done in secret.

 

A certain amount of espionage is expected and accounted for in any product that's being sampled before it's official release. You think Sony and Microsoft don't expect the other to have hands on next gen Dev kits already? Any company sending out pre release samples is very aware the competition is going to see the product and claiming otherwise is very much like the child who thinks nobody can see him because he covers his own eyes.

 

So your proof is that I can't prove it doesn't happen? XD

 

I'm not the one making claims. You're spouting Internet rumors and passing them off as fact. I'm not saying they're definitely false, but claiming they're definitely true is silly.

17 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Huh, keep your head in the sand if you want but I have experienced it first hand. 

 

They knew.  They knew a lot more than you or I did and they know lot more than you or I think they know.

I have my head in the sand for calling out your appeal to ignorance fallacy?

[Master Disaster]

30 minutes ago, JoostinOnline said:

So your proof is that I can't prove it doesn't happen? XD

 

I'm not the one making claims. You're spouting Internet rumors and passing them off as fact. I'm not saying they're definitely false, but claiming they're definitely true is silly.

I have my head in the sand for calling out your appeal to ignorance fallacy?

Where did I offer any proof? I pointed out that asking for proof of something that happens in secret is silly.

 

Honestly the fact you seem to genuinely believe that it doesn't happen says much more about you than what us believing it does says about us.

 

What if I told you that it's highly likely AMD has employees working at Intel and Nvidia, Intel has employees working at AMD and Nvidia has employees working at AMD. When your entire existence depends on knowing as much about your competition as you do about yourself you'd better damn well believe these corporations will do whatever it takes to get that knowledge. Corporate espionage isn't some Hollywood fiction, it's very real and it happens literally every single day. Like I said earlier, large corporations not only expect it but will actually account for it. It's the reason why recipes are kept locked in vaults and why no one person will know everything about products in development.

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, Master Disaster said:

Honestly the fact you seem to genuinely believe that it doesn't happen says much more about you than what us believing it does says about us.

There's a lot of QS and ES CPUs sold on ebay, after product release and after a decent amount of time. If you're willing they are actually a good buy. More on to the point, with so many of them in existence going to motherboard makers, system integrators like HP/Dell/Lenovo etc detailed information getting to the hands of competitors at some point before release should really be expected. I also don't doubt they get ES samples some way or indirect access to them it's just a matter of when/how soon to make that access matter in a short term sense to counter a new product launch.

 

There's also the common knowledge aspect which the companies are working under the same technological restrictions of things like fab technologies so what's achievable is generally understood and it can come down to how far one company expects the other to push towards the maximum or balance the product to fit within desired parameters like die area for cost and yield reasons. Take Nvidia Volta GV100 for example, that's a product where the absolute maximum of every aspect was undertaken. AMD knows the maximum reticle size TSMC (or any fab really) can do and they know enough about Nvidia's architecture to know in advance the core makeup of such a product but when did they know Nvidia was targeting maximum possible? Probably fairly early since TSMC had to do some rather large customizations that would be hard to keep completely under wraps in a shared fab facility, people talk. 

[JoostinOnline]

1 hour ago, Master Disaster said:

Where did I offer any proof? I pointed out that asking for proof of something that happens in secret is silly.

 

 

When you make a claim you need to back it up with proof. Otherwise people are going to call you on your bullshit.  Please look up the appeal to ignorance fallacy.

 

2 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

Honestly the fact you seem to genuinely believe that it doesn't happen says much more about you than what us believing it does says about us.

I never said (or suggested) that. I don't know either way. Neither do you, and you should stop pretending otherwise.

[Stefan Payne]

6 hours ago, mr moose said:

I know a lot of people believe that and that makes it funny,

No, it makes your statement false.

 

Or are you accusing Intel of Espionage?

 

6 hours ago, mr moose said:

but the reality is there is a difference between seeing something coming that you can't do anything about,   and not seeing something coming then not doing anything about it. 

How long did it take for the 6 Cores??
That doesn't look like they were prepared or even knew about it.

Especially with the fab problems, wich is in part due to the more cores and thus larger dies and also designed for maximum utilization of the Fabs with the smaller 4 Core Dies.

6 hours ago, mr moose said:

  If Intel's reaction was to release x299 in all it's messed up iterations and half finished add-on features (at a cost), then they clearly weren't sandbagging and either weren't worried about ryzen or at the very least couldn't do anything about it.

...or they didn't know more than we did and were only projecting and expecting something that wasn't as good as AMD delivered...

 

And thus they released even larger cores to the Consumer, wich they didn't want to and plan, wich also ruined their fab projections and caused utilization beyond 100%.

6 hours ago, mr moose said:

I personally believe Intel had a very good idea what was coming.  Just like AMD know what Nvidia is about to release and when. 

Ähm, no.

Intel didn't know until it was too late.

Intel made their fab for their projected sales of small 14nm/4 Core Dies and some server stuff.

 

Now Intel can't ship, even had to respin a Chipset in the older 22nm process to free up space in the 14nm Fab(s), so that processors can be done instead.

WIth what we know, its absolutely certain that they didn't know more than we did or not much more.

 

Same with nVidia as well.

AMD also didn't know that, if they did, they wouldn't have fired the one that made the VEGA 20 on Desktop...

 

And there are NO LEAKS on AMD's side that are noteworthy, wich then in turn means that they closed their leaks...

 

 

The only source of Information for the other company might only be Partners like MSI, ASUS and co, who might (or might not) get the Chips for valuation purposes.