Analysis of the USB-C dongle/headset mess. Bring back the 3.5 mm jack!

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

Except it doesn't. Thinner directly results in worse battery. And higher price. The size of a usb A port and additionally even ethernet ports is thin enough that it is literally pointless to go to thinner than those ports support as available volume for batteries drops precipitously.

 

The major space cost for ports is not the port, but rather the PCB for the port inside the device. That pcb space is directly related to the complexity of the connector. You need far less complex and smaller pcbs for an audio port than you do for a thunderbolt 3 port. 

 

Like look at this... not even the most original thing, and the RJ45 is already as thin as usb A, which is perfectly easy to fit on even the best and thinnest ultrabooks (like the spectre 360)

There is no valid excuse for dongles other than lazy and greedy design, driven not by the desire to lower cost of making, but rather by the desire to increase sales of dongles.

my macbook is thinner and probably has more battery life

[XenosTech]

4 hours ago, Bananasplit_00 said:

why the actiual fuck did we need to loose the 3.5mm jack in the first place? god damn phone makers, i refuse this dongle hell. i will not use a phone that dosent have a 3.5mm jack

I'm in this camp but my phone is dying and the only thing I can get right now is a pixel 2 xl

[Trik'Stari]

My HTC bolt will not work with any USB-C headphone adapter, except their own.

 

Which died in less than a year, for no apparent reason (no discernanble damage) just randomly stopped working. And costs more than most of the USB-C to headphone adapters I've found on amazon.

 

I am stuck with this phone for the time being, and it pisses me off. There are many other things wrong with it, like it locking up for no reason when nothing is running, etc. But that pisses me off more than anything. I can't use my Audio Technica M50X's at work, where I need headphones that surround my ear to drown out obnoxiously loud co-workers.

 

Thanks HTC, you fucks.

 

(to be fair, this phone was an impulse purchase and I didn't realize that it didn't have a headphone jack. It was a stupid purchase and if I'd been paying attention I wouldn't have bought it, but I had the money and made a stupid mistake. It's still a stupid fucking problem to have)

[Dabombinable]

20 minutes ago, RorzNZ said:

my macbook is thinner and probably has more battery life

You're Macbook would also be in a different price bracket however, one where in comparison its terrible value.

[Trik'Stari]

1 minute ago, Dabombinable said:

one where in comparison its terrible value.

It's an Apple product, of course it's a terrible value

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Dabombinable said:

You're Macbook would also be in a different price bracket however, one where in comparison its terrible value.

value is subjective. its been essential to me, accomplishing tasks better than a windows machine could.

[Curufinwe_wins]

4 minutes ago, RorzNZ said:

value is subjective. its been essential to me, accomplishing tasks better than a windows machine could.

Ok. So price comparative... my SB2 literally does everything better than that macbook pro while having way better battery life and still fitting type A ports.

[S w a t s o n]

Tl;DR If everyone followed the spec like Google has, including USB-PD and if the USB-IF would stop doing things like USB 3 Gen 1 and USB 3 Gen 2 and just settle the standard for a couple years we might see proper compatibility between devices

[Dabombinable]

7 minutes ago, RorzNZ said:

value is subjective. its been essential to me, accomplishing tasks better than a windows machine could.

How can a Macbook complete tasks faster than a same-cost Windows machine with far better specs and bigger batteries?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

Ok. So price comparative... my SB2 literally does everything better than that macbook pro while having way better battery life and still fitting type A ports.

What does it do better?

[Curufinwe_wins]

Just now, S w a t s o n said:

Tl;DR If everyone followed the spec like Google has, including USB-PD and if the USB-IF would stop doing things like USB 3 Gen 1 and USB 3 Gen 2 and just settle the standard for a couple years we might see proper compatibility between devices

How about google add the universal "optional parts" of the spec like analog audio? The reason we get messy shit like this is cause all these manufacturers want to be able to do minimum work and claim the best spec compliance.

[S w a t s o n]

6 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

How about google add the universal "optional parts" of the spec like analog audio? The reason we get messy shit like this is cause all these manufacturers want to be able to do minimum work and claim the best spec compliance.

Google is not even part of USB-IF and even if they were they are under no requirement to add shit that manufactures want to do on their own devices, it's an industry standard for a reason, every company should comply. USB 2.0 was one nice neat standard, USB 3 is already fragmented to fuck we don't need more. I really like OnePlus/Oppo Dash Charge/VOOC but it means not supporting USB-PD which in the long term is harmful to having an actual unified standard. Hopefully USB-IF expands  USB-PD but that's gonna be another revision....

 

 

Also, how is it minimum work to put a DAC in because they are following spec? The analog dongles are 1. easier and cheaper to make and 2. not even supported on every device. Google's supports every device at the cost of you not plugging in your little FiiO DAC or w/e

[Curufinwe_wins]

2 minutes ago, RorzNZ said:

What does it do better?

CPU tasks (since it can actually hold clocks without thermal throttling, even with the "lower powered cpu"), GPU tasks (obliterating the lowly 460), productivity with the better 3x2 aspect ratio and better OS (mac OS is quite literally the worst modern desktop/laptop OS for power users by far. Having to download sideload apps for simple thing like snap and having flaky (or non-existent) click through applications. The awful screen utilization of the software ID.). Better, more accurate screen. Far superior keyboard. Touchscreen/tablet utilization. 

 

I mean unless you really like/want mac OS for non-objective reasons, there isnt a good reason to buy a macbook pro for any function. There are simply just superior options regardless of use case. Even if you "need" Unix.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

CPU tasks (since it can actually hold clocks without thermal throttling, even with the "lower powered cpu"), GPU tasks (obliterating the lowly 460), productivity with the better 3x2 aspect ratio and better OS (mac OS is quite literally the worst modern desktop/laptop OS for power users by far. Having to download sideload apps for simple thing like snap and having flaky (or non-existent) click through applications. The awful screen utilization of the software ID.). Better, more accurate screen. Far superior keyboard. Touchscreen/tablet utilization. 

 

I mean unless you really like/want mac OS for non-objective reasons, there isnt a good reason to buy a macbook pro for any function. There are simply just superior options regardless of use case. Even if you "need" Unix.

I have a i7 6700HQ, which is fine processor wise for my editng of pages documents. The 15" screen size works great too. MacOS is far better than windows for my everyday tasks, no windows update and better cloud integration. I just save my document and boom its in the cloud. Doesnt get any easier than that. I dont think you have used MacOS before. 

[Curufinwe_wins]

3 minutes ago, S w a t s o n said:

Google is not even part of USB-IF and even if they were they are under no requirement to add shit that manufactures want to do on their own devices, it's an industry standard for a reason, every company should comply. USB 2.0 was one nice neat standard, USB 3 is already fragmented to fuck we don't need more. I really like OnePlus/Oppo Dash Charge/VOOC but it means not supporting USB-PD which in the long term is harmful to having an actual unified standard. Hopefully USB-IF expands  USB-PD but that's gonna be another revision....

PD isnt a required spec. Claiming not supporting PD is bad, but not supporting Audio passthrough is fine....

 

Both are OFFICIAL (albeit optional) parts of the USB-C spec. Google is as guilty of avoiding full compliance as any other.

 

Personally, I think USB IF needs to stop bending to the will of manufacturers in letting these sub-features be "optional parts of the spec".

[Curufinwe_wins]

4 minutes ago, RorzNZ said:

I have a i7 6700HQ, which is fine processor wise for my editng of pages documents. The 15" screen size works great too. MacOS is far better than windows for my everyday tasks, no windows update and better cloud integration. I just save my document and boom its in the cloud. Doesnt get any easier than that. I dont think you have used MacOS before. 

I save my document and it's on the cloud as well (by default). It's been that way for literally 7 years on windows, you know that right? [For the record... I wish it wasn't so frustratingly transparently cloud integrated. I would love more control over the cloud integration.]

 

I spent over 3 years stuck with mac OS at work. I've used it a ton. I thought it was better before I started using it and the stupid BS was not as glaringly obvious.

[S w a t s o n]

7 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

PD isnt a required spec. Claiming not supporting PD is bad, but not supporting Audio passthrough is fine....

 

Both are OFFICIAL (albeit optional) parts of the USB-C spec. Google is as guilty of avoiding full compliance as any other.

 

Personally, I think USB IF needs to stop bending to the will of manufacturers in letting these sub-features be "optional parts of the spec".

Not supporting USB-PD means that you can't guarantee a charger can be used with all devices, audio is not the same situation. You dont "support" analog audio pass through, you effectively break spec. You're mad at Google for basically trying to make the correct dongle, and why? Their dongle works on every phone, it's the analog ones that dont work on every phone.

 

USB-PD is not a required spec because not every USB-C port needs have the high power capability, but if you do plan to pass that much power you are supposed to use USB-PD. Eventually every USB-C charger in the world should work at quick charge output even if it's under powered like a phone charger trying to charge a laptop, it would still provide the max power the charger could supply. This only happens if USB-PD is the defacto standard

[Belgarathian]

I don't think Apple will ditch lightning anytime soon, but the rumor mill has USB-C as a possibility. I would be surprised if we don't see a very quick adaption of Apple's standard for audio over USB-C if that's the case. 

 

That said, it'll still involve their LAM chip or similar. 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

I save my document and it's on the cloud as well (by default). It's been that way for literally 7 years on windows, you know that right? [For the record... I wish it wasn't so frustratingly transparently cloud integrated. I would love more control over the cloud integration.]

 

I spent over 3 years stuck with mac OS at work. I've used it a ton. I thought it was better before I started using it and the stupid BS was not as glaringly obvious.

As I remember your desktop, documents and any folder you like arent backed up by default. Not to mention app-specific iCloud folders. As a free service too. 

 

You probably didn't use it properly and didn't know how to use it. Its actually marketed as different than windows so don't expect to do things in a similar manner. 

[Curufinwe_wins]

1 minute ago, S w a t s o n said:

Not supporting USB-PD means that you can't guarantee a charger can be used with all devices, audio is not the same situation. You dont "support" analog audio pass through, you effectively break spec. You're mad at Google for basically trying to make the correct dongle, and why? Their dongle works on every phone, it's the analog ones that dont work on every phone.

 

USB-PD is not a required spec because not every USB-C port needs have the high power capability, but if you do plan to pass that much power you are supposed to use USB-PD. Eventually every USB-C charger in the world should work even if it's under powered like a phone charger trying to charge a laptop, it would still provide the max power the charger could supply. This only happens if USB-PD is the defacto standard

Analogue Audio passthrough is PART OF THE USB-C SPEC. What is not understood by this?

 

It is called Audio Adapter Accessory Mode.

 

It is the exact same issue. Exactly the same sort of "optional" crap that makes the USB-C field a mess. If PD support was required, you wouldn't have that afforementioned problem. If Audio Adapter Accessory Mode was enforced/required, this entire article wouldn't need to exist. Everything could work with each other without any issues or complications.

[Drak3]

4 minutes ago, RorzNZ said:

As I remember your desktop, documents and any folder you like arent backed up by default.

That's also true of OSX. It'd take about as much time to set that up on OSX as it would in Windows using an external HDD, any cloud service, or basic NAS sold at Walmart. Any custom NAS solution, and odds are I'm spending more time configuring the NAS to work with OSX than the effort is worth.

[Curufinwe_wins]

15 minutes ago, RorzNZ said:

As I remember your desktop, documents and any folder you like arent backed up by default. Not to mention app-specific iCloud folders. As a free service too. 

 

You probably didn't use it properly and didn't know how to use it. Its actually marketed as different than windows so don't expect to do things in a similar manner. 

Desktop, documents, any folder you like ARE backed up by default. (desktop as part of stock windows, everything else as part of OneDrive, though OneDrive also can backup desktop if you want.)

 

Or I know exactly how to use each of those systems and guess what? OS X is badly designed. Forced lack of click-through applications is bad design. Lack of Aero Snap (or equivalent) by default is bad design. Locking the toolbar of applications up away from the application itself, no matter where the application is currently located is bad design.

 

It is an OS completely decoupled from efficiency in utilization for the sake of some "artistic vision". I'd much rather use Ubuntu, Mint, or Arch for fully compliant Unix over OS X (though with increasing unix-like terminal support, windows is lowering the need less and less for anything else.)

 

 

Like look. This is the thing to understand. In every aspect of my work, efficiency is the highest priority. I can't look at anything without trying to fix and/or improve it. I spent such a ludicrously amount of time trying to optimize my utilization of OS X just for the purposes of work because that was what I was given/allowed to use, and the programs I was running on... well export control is a thing. Looking back at it, I should have just given up from the beginning, had windows side-loaded and taken the performance hit on VM'ng into a unix environment instead of trying to get OS X to not be a power user nightmare (I had multiple co-workers on either side of that fence there, and obviously no one in the middle on it, so I gave it the good old college try.)

[Curufinwe_wins]

3 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

That's also true of OSX. It'd take about as much time to set that up on OSX as it would in Windows using an external HDD, any cloud service, or basic NAS sold at Walmart. Any custom NAS solution, and odds are I'm spending more time configuring the NAS to work with OSX than the effort is worth.

Assuming you use Office... Which is a very strong assumption... Onedrive automagically and frustratingly forces backup of all that stuff by default as well, as part of the service.

[S w a t s o n]

12 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

Analogue Audio passthrough is PART OF THE USB-C SPEC. What is not understood by this?

 

It is called Audio Adapter Accessory Mode.

 

It is the exact same issue. Exactly the same sort of "optional" crap that makes the USB-C field a mess. If PD support was required, you wouldn't have that afforementioned problem. If Audio Adapter Accessory Mode was enforced/required, this entire article wouldn't need to exist. Everything could work with each other without any issues or complications.

i dont think you understand how this works, either the dongle outputs digital or it outputs analog, you're asking for a usb-c dongle that outputs both which no one does afaik. Unlike USB-PD, this idea is dumb and probably wont ever become the norm

[Drak3]

Just now, Curufinwe_wins said:

Assuming you use Office... Which is a very strong assumption... Onedrive automagically and frustratingly forces backup of all that stuff by default as well, as part of the service.

I use it, no it doesn't. Everything on my OneDrive predates Windows 10. Hell, it goes back to when it was called SkyDrive.

It just has OneDrive as the default save location, an easy switch. Just like how Office defaulted to the documents library/folder before Office 365.