corona virus

[Guest]

7 hours ago, dizmo said:

Haha oh boy. I, frankly, find it pretty funny that people are so worried about the Wuhan virus. It's death rate is relatively low.

You know what kills about 14% of the people it infects, of which it infects millions of annually, even though we have vaccines? The common flu.

The most recent numbers have 9,700 people infected and a death rate of 213. So about 2%. Or 7x less lethal than the common flu. It also (afaik) is affecting the same type of people negatively as the common flu; those with compromised immune systems, and the elderly.

 

 

On that note, we often compare how contagious by its R0 value, the number in this is how many people transmit the disease to another person, its a measure of how fast a disease will spread. This would be a logistical response to how worried we should really be regarding the Wuhan Coronavirus. For instance, Measles has a value of R18, one person will spread Measles to 18 people,  on average. Normal seasonal flu has a R0 value of R7. SARS had a value of R4. However, it was announced on the BBC News not too long ago one person will spread the Wuhan virus to just 2-3 people, so thats an R0 value of only 2-3 - not to mention to  get Severe Acute Pulmonary Syndrome from the Wuhan flu is only a 20% risk - most people will likely present with flu-like symptoms to viral pneumonia. 

 

On to patient care - this is NOT 2002/2003. About a week ago, we already had the entire genome for the Wuhan Coronavirus, whilst we won't be able to make a vaccine in time to stop the virus before it burns out, China has greater population control, much better facilities and international co-operation - in fact its a laboratory in the USA making the vaccine. 

 

I think China's response has been groundbreaking, amazing they have the logistics to build entire hospitals in just a few week (they used a blueprint from a SARS hospital, but still, dont think anywhere else in the world could achieve that). 

[dalekphalm]

8 hours ago, atxcyclist said:

 

I get the implication, but let's be real: There were a few really stupid and vocal people, like bimbo actress Jenny McCarthy, that conned some gullible rubes into thinking vaccines caused autism. It got very publicly debunked, and now only the dumbest people might still believe that here. During all of this, the medical community in the United States has continuously been for vaccinations, and you'd be hard-pressed to find someone that isn't vaccinated here outside of some little insane communities. I still have my original vaccination records in my safe, just in case there's ever a question.

 

Meanwhile, Chinese "doctors" are selling ointments to cure cancer, and tiger genitals as a substitute for Viagra. Beyond the medical quackery, China has things like the wet market where possible pandemics are starting. So, regardless of whatever comedy zinger that Twitter dude was going for, I'm going to very satisfyingly drop the mic over here.

You can call the anti-vaxxers in North America "the dumbest people" - and I might even agree with you. But they're still here, and they are growing in numbers.

 

In 2001, 0.3% of toddlers were not vaccinated. In 2011, that jumped to 0.9%. In 2015, it jumped again to 1.3%.

 

1.3% isn't very many, statistically.

 

But there are something like 20 million of them. 1.3% is 260,000 kids that are unvaccinated.

[Bombastinator]

7 hours ago, atxcyclist said:

Even your own state's website, MNSure.org says in the FAQ's that you cannot be denied because of pre-existing conditions. I don't know why you've been told that, but neither the ACA, nor your state's insurance site validate that claim. If you're going through a 3rd party insurer and they're telling you this, they are trying to screw you.

 

https://www.mnsure.org/new-customers/whatis-mnsure/faq/index.jsp

 

"All plans sold through MNsure provide comprehensive coverage and consumer protections such as no discrimination based on pre-existing conditions (you cannot be denied coverage or charged a higher premium based on your health status, for example). In addition, all plans sold through MNsure include 10 essential health benefits. Other plans available may not include the same benefits and protections guaranteed when purchasing a plan through MNsure."

 

 

Not trying to be a jerk, my mother's life was practically saved when pre-existing condition prohibitions were removed on insurance plans, so I don't like other people getting ran around about it.

Yep.  And to do that I need to be able to access the MNsure marketplace.  Which I can’t do.  It’s a complicated little legal hole.  Still isn’t the focus.  It was an example.  It happens.   This is about corona virus and the claim that China has no access to modern medicine whereas access to modern medicine in the US is ubiquitous.  It’s not.  Claims of “it shouldn’t be this way” or “that’s not how it is supposed to work” may be correct, but the fact remains that it is so.  China may have a thriving snake oil pseudo medicine industry but so does the US.

[atxcyclist]

7 hours ago, mr moose said:

 

Because you keep criticizing the Chinese like you are above them.  Quarantining 50 million people is a perfectly reasonable response to a deadly virus outbreak you have no control over.  Having people die of a preventable disease in a first world country because you have soccer mums preaching on facebook that vaccines are dangerous is not reasonable at all.  All I am saying is you are a hypocrite for continually trying to criticize china over this when you have the same if not worse health practices in your own damn country.  

 

The fact you refuse to accept that one irrefutable truth is evidence you think you are better, I used the term thinking of yourself as perfect and maybe that was wrong, it doesn't matter though, there are lots of words that describe that attitude and none of them are nice.

 

 

I am criticizing them, for good reason. No control over? This type of wet market is also where SARS started, the Chinese and their government have known they're breeding grounds for disease and yet they continue to operate them in that same way. No it isn't reasonable, and most of the country doesn't think anti-vaxxers are reasonable either, but you are treating it like every citizen here, all the doctors, and our governing departments agree with those Facebook moms; Their actions don't represent everyone here, but on the other hand the Chinese government and citizens are letting these pandemics start in wet markets that they all refuse to change or close. It isn't hypocritical for me to point all this out and say we're doing better, because we are.

 

You clearly have an axe to grind with people from the United States for whatever reason, so have fun with that. We're used to the hatred.

[Bombastinator]

8 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

I am criticizing them, for good reason. No control over? This type of wet market is also where SARS started, the Chinese and their government have known they're breeding grounds for disease and yet they continue to operate them in that same way. No it isn't reasonable, and most of the country doesn't think anti-vaxxers are reasonable either, but you are treating it like every citizen here, all the doctors, and our governing departments agree with those Facebook moms; Their actions don't represent everyone here, but on the other hand Chinese people and their government are letting these pandemics start in wet markets that they all refuse to change or close. It isn't hypocritical for me to point all this out and say we're doing better, because we are.

 

You clearly have an axe to grind with people from the United States for whatever reason, so have fun with that. We're used to the hatred.

This claim that exotic live animal markets are operated the same way is out of date.  The original vector for this newest corona virus variant is unknown.  There is a preference in China for live animals over packaged meat.  It comes from refrigeration being a newer thing.  It’s common in many countries.  The US is something of an anomaly that way.  Most EU countries have moved away from it though a few newer ones haven’t so much yet.

 

The assumption that the problem with inaccurate statements constitutes dislike for a nation is a bit bizarre.  I take exception to this apparent conflation of inaccurate claims with being American.  I do admit that there have been a lot of them coming out of the US lately.  

[Guest]

Well... The US is chlorinating some of its meat... Which is totally forbidden in Europe.

Why are they doing it? Because they have such an outbreak of e-coli and other very healthy bacterias.

Want to speak of the feed lots? Want to discuss the need of so many antibiotics in the meat animals food? Several thousands of veals and beef

The outbreak of e-coli in salads a few years ago? Which is not yet solved per se. The only way to have e-coli in your salad is from the water... So... E-coli in the water? Urgh!
Want to discuss the amount of sweeteners or corn syrup (aka glucose-fructose syrop, aka HFCS) in american sodas? If corn syrup is forbidden in Europe there's a reason for that...

 

They are crying about how "unsafe" the french cheese is, but chlorinated chicken is ok? Please...   What a joke!

 

Nah! The US have really no lessons to teach the rest of the world regarding breeding and food regulations... There all is about money, even more so health.
In many ways they are no better than China...

 

Yes, I know, it sounds harsh but hey... that's also the truth... Plus I'm entitled my opinion

 

 

[atxcyclist]

1 hour ago, Bombastinator said:

This claim that exotic live animal markets are operated the same way is out of date.  The original vector for this newest corona virus variant is unknown.  There is a preference in China for live animals over packaged meat.  It comes from refrigeration being a newer thing.  It’s common in many countries.  The US is something of an anomaly that way.  Most EU countries have moved away from it though a few newer ones haven’t so much yet.

 

The assumption that the problem with inaccurate statements constitutes dislike for a nation is a bit bizarre.  I take exception to this apparent conflation of inaccurate claims with being American.  I do admit that there have been a lot of them coming out of the US lately.  

It’s been established that the virus has been at the very least spread via the markets at this point, SARS was the same. Even if their methods have changed somewhat, the outcome is the same. The Chinese might ‘prefer’ to defecate in the street, it doesn’t mean it’s good practice.

 

My statements were not inaccurate, and can be demonstrated by the fact that our government and the vast majority of both doctors and other people don’t believe the anti-vaxxer BS. That guy posing it as fact that we’re all like that is inaccurate, and he’s using that to form a bias against myself and other Americans. Comparing the actions of a relatively small group of anti-vaxxers in the US, to the entire Chinese government allowing these disease-vector wet markets to continue along with all the other incidents of complete disregard for standards they’ve perpetrated over the years, is false equivalency at best and complete ignorance at worst. I claim we’re doing better than China in those aspects because we are, it’s not really debatable unless someone is inherently biased or ignorant.

[The King of the Undead]

and now I remember why I don't go on these kinds of threads.

[atxcyclist]

5 minutes ago, Cora_Lie said:

Well... The US is chlorinating some of its meat... Which is totally forbidden in Europe.

Why are they doing it? Because they have such an outbreak of e-coli and other very healthy bacterias.

Want to speak of the feed lots? Want to discuss the need of so many antibiotics in the meat animals food? Several thousands of veals and beef

The outbreak of e-coli in salads a few years ago? Which is not yet solved per se. The only way to have e-coli in your salad is from the water... So... E-coli in the water? Urgh!
Want to discuss the amount of sweeteners or corn syrup (aka glucose-fructose syrop, aka HFCS) in american sodas? If corn syrup is forbidden in Europe there's a reason for that...

 

They are crying about how "unsafe" the french cheese is, but chlorinated chicken is ok? Please...   What a joke!

 

Nah! The US have really no lessons to teach the rest of the world regarding breeding and food regulations... There all is about money, even more so health.
In many ways they are no better than China...

 

Yes, I know, it sounds harsh but hey... that's also the truth... Plus I'm entitled my opinion

 

 

Chicken are washed in a solution to clean them, and should be both washed in water thoroughly by the consumer and cooked thoroughly, this is not a big deal at all. The phrase “chlorinated chicken” is an intentional scare tactic, anyone not washing their poultry and cooking it thoroughly afterward is doing it wrong regardless of where they live. Runoff from farms into lettuce fields caused the e-coli outbreak, better runoff management fixes this. We export something like 13% of our beef to other countries, so clearly it’s not a hang up for everyone.

 

 

[Bombastinator]

4 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

Chicken are washed in a solution to clean them, and should be both washed in water thoroughly by the consumer and cooked thoroughly, this is not a big deal at all. The phrase “chlorinated chicken” is an intentional scare tactic, anyone not washing their poultry and cooking it thoroughly afterward is doing it wrong regardless of where they live. Runoff from farms into lettuce fields caused the e-coli outbreak, better runoff management fixes this. We export something like 13% of our beef to other countries, so clearly it’s not a hang up for everyone.

 

 

I think the chlorinating thing refers to the whole “pink slime” issue that was in the news some time ago.  which is not about home use at all.  It’s about using a special grating machine to remove rib meat from industrial meat.  It’s a different topic.

[Guest]

On 1/31/2020 at 8:06 PM, atxcyclist said:

Chicken are washed in a solution to clean them, and should be both washed in water thoroughly by the consumer and cooked thoroughly, this is not a big deal at all. The phrase “chlorinated chicken” is an intentional scare tactic, anyone not washing their poultry and cooking it thoroughly afterward is doing it wrong regardless of where they live. Runoff from farms into lettuce fields caused the e-coli outbreak, better runoff management fixes this. We export something like 13% of our beef to other countries, so clearly it’s not a hang up for everyone.

 

 

Sure!

Are you going to wash them thoroughly with the non-drinkable water you're getting more and more in your city pipes as they are too old and not replaced-serviced thoroughly?

Or maybe with the gallons of bottled water you need to buy?

 

Spoiler

https://www.maps.silverleafgeospatial.com/NRDC/Demo/SWDA_Violations/
https://www.nrdc.org/resources/threats-tap-widespread-violations-water-infrastructure

https://www.ewg.org/interactive-maps/2016-chromium6-lower-48.php

 

"Chlorinated chicken" is the official appellation, not any "scare tactic". Of course you need to wash and cook them as they need to, it's cooking!
Now cooking it means killing the bacterias, it won't remove the antibiotics and other chemicals from the meat...

Spoiler

Map of feedlots in the US

 

Graph

(A) Largest five consumers of antimicrobials in livestock in 2010. (B) Largest five consumers of antimicrobials in livestock in 2030 (projected). (C) Largest Increase in antimicrobial consumption between 2010 and 2030. (D) Largest relative increase in antimicrobial consumption between 2010 and 2030. CHN, China; USA, United States; BRA, Brazil; DEU, Germany; IND, India; MEX, Mexico; IDN, Indonesia; MMR, Myanmar; NGA, Nigeria; PER, Peru; PHL, Philippines.

 

Better runoff management means paying for it in order to prevent spillage in the fields.

 

Regarding the export of your beef... Well... Some people like to buy quality and there are the others...

You said you worked in hospitals design and are "aware" (and implied that you hence know more than the common of mortals), then I'm sure you are "aware" of the main origin of the worrying "outbreak" of bacterial/microbial resistance, aren't you?
US is enforcing the export of their meat and chlorinated poultry through their trade agreements. Just as they are trying to force the UK to accept their chlorinated poultry, which the UK DO NOT WANT. But hey... What was Trump's promise? "We have some very advantageous trade agreement for the UK!"...
 

Spoiler

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/iain-dale/chlorinated-chicken-brexit-trade-deal-mike-pompeo/
https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/nick-ferrari/chlorinated-chicken-not-sold-in-uk-michael-gove/

 

So I leave you your "high-quality" meat and I keep my EEC less full of antibiotics non-chlorinated meat. ^o^

Of course, everything is not perfect in Europe, far from it, but at least we fare a little better than many others.

 

You want more maps and/or graphs? Just ask! One of the perks of my job is getting good infos on what I'm curious about... And maps and graphs are... very interesting and quite informative too...

 

On 1/31/2020 at 8:13 PM, Bombastinator said:

I think the chlorinating thing refers to the whole “pink slime” issue that was in the news some time ago.  which is not about home use at all.  It’s about using a special grating machine to remove rib meat from industrial meat.  It’s a different topic.

No no ^o^  It's exactly what he said.

Not talking about the pink slime...

Edited January 31, 2020 by Guest
Added links to 2 LBC videos and articles

[Bombastinator]

8 minutes ago, Cora_Lie said:

No no ^o^  It's exactly what he said.

Not talking about the pink slime...

Ah.  Might also apply though.  That had to do with gassing meat that was normally considered unsafe.

 

Im unfamiliar with the practice then.  I’ve heard it used as an illegal trick used by some restaurants  to make spoiled meat taste serviceable temporarily.  My specific memory was an anecdote by a former “hooters” employee describing why he would never again eat food at a hooters.
 

Are you referring to a different practice?

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Are you referring to a different practice?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poultry_farming_in_the_United_States#Chlorinated_chicken

 

All your poultry is treated like that. That practice is forbidden in the EEC.

[Bombastinator]

10 minutes ago, Cora_Lie said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poultry_farming_in_the_United_States#Chlorinated_chicken

 

All your poultry is treated like that. That practice is forbidden in the EEC.

Ah. So a completely different direction.

[atxcyclist]

19 minutes ago, Cora_Lie said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poultry_farming_in_the_United_States#Chlorinated_chicken

 

All your poultry is treated like that. That practice is forbidden in the EEC.

The practice is fine, the EEC banned it because of presumption. In the end the chicken is cleaned and has less pathogens so the intended result is met.

 

As far as your other post, ‘common mortals’ tend to not know about the tedium involved in the construction and regulation of medical facilities, and they probably don’t know the significant difference in licensing and care levels between a place like the US and a place like China. I can point to a bookshelf full of regulatory guidelines and the over 100 years of combined medical design experience in my office, and say that I wouldn’t have day surgery done in China; There is no oversight or consistent adherence of standards there. Being aware of this discrepancy is just adhering to fact, if that annoys anyone then they should step back and re-evaluate their position.

[PhantomJaguarr]

 

7 days is 7 days.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

The practice is fine, the EEC banned it because of presumption. In the end the chicken is cleaned and has less pathogens so the intended result is met.

Quote

"Since 1997, the European Union has refused to permit the import of chicken treated in this way, claiming that it compensates for poor hygiene behaviour elsewhere in the supply chain and disincentivises the poultry industry to put in place proper hygiene practices. "

Wikipedia

Claiming that it is a form of "protectionism" (as noted on the wikipedia page) or some "presumption" is utterly disingenuous!

We know WHY we don't want it and we state it. Same is valid for the meat.

[Bombastinator]

43 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

The practice is fine, the EEC banned it because of presumption. In the end the chicken is cleaned and has less pathogens so the intended result is met.

 

As far as your other post, ‘common mortals’ tend to not know about the tedium involved in the construction and regulation of medical facilities, and they probably don’t know the significant difference in licensing and care levels between a place like the US and a place like China. I can point to a bookshelf full of regulatory guidelines and the over 100 years of combined medical design experience in my office, and say that I wouldn’t have day surgery done in China; There is no oversight or consistent adherence of standards there. Being aware of this discrepancy is just adhering to fact, if that annoys anyone then they should step back and re-evaluate their position.

Assumptive.  Might be true, might not.  Doesn’t matter.  This isn’t about US food habits.  It’s about claims regarding Chinese food habits.  You think chlorinated chicken is fine.  The Chinese also seem to think their food habits are fine too.   The point is there are people who do not approve of US food habits just as there are people who do not approve of Chinese food habits.  To haul out the pink slime thing again, there are even people in the US who do not approve of US food habits.  I myself am kind of worried about the chlorinated chicken thing in that it makes me wonder why it is considered necessary.  What are we not doing to make it needed?  I also wonder if pink slime is illegal in China?   That wouldn’t matter either but would be ironic.

[atxcyclist]

21 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Assumptive.  Might be true, might not.  Doesn’t matter.  This isn’t about US food habits.  It’s about claims regarding Chinese food habits.  You think chlorinated chicken is fine.  The Chinese also seem to think their food habits are fine too.   The point is there are people who do not approve of US food habits just as there are people who do not approve of Chinese food habits.  To haul out the pink slime thing again, there are even people in the US who do not approve of US food habits.  I myself am kind of worried about the chlorinated chicken thing in that it makes me wonder why it is considered necessary.  What are we not doing to make it needed?  I also wonder if pink slime is illegal in China?   That wouldn’t matter either but would be ironic.

“chlorinated chicken” is fine, we’ve been doing it for decades without issue, the Chinese are demonstratably wrong about these wet markets and that is clear from SARS and this coronavirus.

 

Having large facilities raising chicken for a large population, it is necessary to impose different safety measures, like cleaning the raw chicken before packaging. By the looks of it with the poison pet food, fake chemical eggs, radioactive drywall, and safety-less meat markets, very little is illegal there.

 

 

 

 

[mr moose]

5 hours ago, atxcyclist said:

I am criticizing them, for good reason.

No you are not, you are being a hypocrite.

5 hours ago, atxcyclist said:

snip

 

You clearly have an axe to grind with people from the United States for whatever reason, so have fun with that. We're used to the hatred.

Not at all, I even apologized to the people in the US who that tweet doesn't apply to (because I acknowledge that not everyone in a country is as irrational as their loudest).

[WkdPaul]

15 hours ago, atxcyclist said:

When you walk into a hospital here, you see doctors, nurses, and other medical professionals; A guy on a TV commercial is going to sell you fish oil capsules, not someone that has a combined decade or more of medical school and surgical/specialty training.

You obviously know nothing about China, I would stop spreading misinformation. Yes, "traditional medicine" is a thing in China, but I haven't had a medical doctor give me a prescription for herbs. I've lived in China, went back many times since. Married to a Chinese and I have friends that still live there.

 

Medical professionals don't prescribe 'traditional medicines remedies', that's not how it works, like at all.

[thechinchinsong]

On 1/27/2020 at 11:50 PM, TempestCatto said:

You know there's a conspiracy theorist who thinks China infected people then sent them to different countries to spread the disease.

There are literally people on the internet claiming it's a leaked bioweapon from China.

[mr moose]

5 minutes ago, thechinchinsong said:

There are literally people on the internet claiming it's a leaked bioweapon from China.

And others in Australia are trying to insinuate it is a western weapon.  The level of irrationality on the internet is just getting insane.

[dizmo]

14 hours ago, Chiyawa said:

Yeah. It's a scary thing if this became normal.

There's been multiple times over the course of human history where, even if accidental, local populations have been affected by military R&D.

14 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

Didn’t read all of it.  It was a long post. I can only reply to your opener and your reply to me.

 

re: opener
you do make a point about the flu.

 I get my flu shot every year.  My chances of being killed by a coronavirus infection is apparently ~50%.  Something like 3 times more dangerous for me than the flu.  Perhaps a corona virus thing will be added to the flu shot. It’s apparently particularly bad for children and people over 50.  The Black Plague didn’t kill everyone either.  It was only something like 30%.  Unless it went pneumatic.  Then it was something like 90% and would wipe out a city in a couple days.
 

re: Ebola

Yep.  Ebola’s been around for centuries.  Ebola killed so fast though that it didn’t spread.  Little pockets would pop up, kill everyone, and vanish.  Not a pandemic risk.

 Not happening lately though because we travel so much faster.

It's actually not worse than the regular flu. The regular flu has a 14%ish chance of killing everyone affected, if you're over 65, then that jumps to 85%. So the regular flu strain is still substantially more dangerous.

12 hours ago, mr moose said:

This, people don't realize the direction china is going nor do they properly consider where they have come from.   Sure there is a lot to be angry about, but to be fair and unbiased there are a few good arguments for them doing a better job moving forward right now than the US is.

 

Like Charles darwin who many hold in high esteem as being the father of evolution and a figure head for scientific thinking,  whom was also of white European decent and a member of a club that enjoyed eating strange and exotic animals.

Exactly. Like, if you look at when the US started mass purchasing vehicles, they've had what...60? 70 years? China's had maybe a third of that. In 40 years, they'll be so far ahead of where the US is right now, it won't even be funny. Yes, some of that has to do with advancements that have been made, but it also has to do with how their developments have significantly less red tape.

9 hours ago, atxcyclist said:

What don't I understand? Doctors in China don't have to be doctors, and these wet markets will continue operating and spawning possible pandemics. When this coronavirus has passed, all of this will start right back up in China. China sells fake chemical eggs, rat-poisoned pet food, and radioactive drywall; The last two things on that list were exported and harmed/killed people and pets in other countries, so clearly the government has no checks in place either. That explicit lack of caring about any standards or safety measures is why I do point at them.

 

"People in the US honestly believe..." Some people in the US believe that stuff, but the vast majority of our medical professionals and citizens don't, and our governing bodies don't. I am somewhat in a position to judge, I've been working in hospital/medical facility design for almost twenty years, and have a good grasp on what the standards surrounding both the construction, and operation of those facilities are. 

China sells tons of things by many, many different companies. Do you know where else this happens? In the US. From US companies. Sure, it might not be rat poison, but there have been many, many recalls on US produced pet food as well. That radioactive drywall you bring up? Yup, houses made from US based drywall started having the exact same problems, likely because the chemical makeup is similar. The fake egg example is hit or miss depending on which source you go with, but it's likely not far off the fake rice stories that used to go around, which was also a hoax. Eggs are stupid cheap in China. It wouldn't make sense to spend the money and resources to fake them.

 

China has exploded in the past 30 years. It's not surprising that it's going to take time before they get proper regulatory stuff in place.

8 hours ago, mr moose said:

Because you keep criticizing the Chinese like you are above them.  Quarantining 50 million people is a perfectly reasonable response to a deadly virus outbreak you have no control over.  Having people die of a preventable disease in a first world country because you have soccer mums preaching on facebook that vaccines are dangerous is not reasonable at all.  All I am saying is you are a hypocrite for continually trying to criticize china over this when you have the same if not worse health practices in your own damn country.  

 

The fact you refuse to accept that one irrefutable truth is evidence you think you are better, I used the term thinking of yourself as perfect and maybe that was wrong, it doesn't matter though, there are lots of words that describe that attitude and none of them are nice.

While he's not right in what he said, you're not blameless yourself. The way you word things basically lumps all Americans in the same boat. Which is, frankly, just as wrong as what he's assuming. He (likely) has nothing to do with the soccer moms preaching on Facebook, so why is that relevant? He's not wrong to point out deficiencies in China, as they're facts, not personal opinions. China's healthcare sector is, frankly, pathetic. While the US has issues with costs, at least it's present.

8 hours ago, GoldenLag said:

its actually likely the war would have been won by the allies regardless, however the war was certainly shortened, and the soviet union would have gotten a greater share of europe had they not joined in as their losses would be greater.

I really doubt that. The US propped the UK up while they were under bombardment with supply shipments, they had the highest number of Allied casualties, the highest number of wounded soldiers, they were the reason Japan left the war...without the US, the Axis would have won. There simply aren't enough soldiers or equipment for the Allied forces to have won without them.

8 hours ago, KnoT said:

You check your math why are you getting the mortality rate from dead/infected ? Infected can still die or get better so they are still fighting the virus their outcome is not know yet.

Because that's what mortality rate is. The amount of people killed by a virus. It has nothing to do with the potential deaths.

7 hours ago, RorzNZ said:

I think China's response has been groundbreaking, amazing they have the logistics to build entire hospitals in just a few week (they used a blueprint from a SARS hospital, but still, dont think anywhere else in the world could achieve that). 

Yeah, they've been able to shut it down decently well. It's interesting how something similar wouldn't work in most other countries, as it would violate people's rights.

I could see Japan pulling something like that hospital off. Have you ever seen the videos of them fixing massive sinkholes in roadways in the middle of cities a few hours? Insane. I would, however, question the quality of the work in buildings so quickly constructed.

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, mr moose said:

And others in Australia are trying to insinuate it is a western weapon.  The level of irrationality on the internet is just getting insane.

Unfortunately this irrationality already caused a death in Sydney, Australia.

 

A 60 yo man collapsed in the street and bystanders refused to perform CPR because "he might be sick and have the coronavirus"!

When police and first responders arrived it was too  late and man had died.

 

https://metro.co.uk/2020/01/30/man-died-chinatown-people-refused-give-cpr-coronavirus-fears-12155013/

 

:sigh: