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Henker

Opinion: Apple isn't ripping anyone off

Crunchy Dragon

Keep this a civil discussion.

 

Remember the Community Standards and please think before you hit the shiny reply button :)

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the weird thing here is the assumption that Apple is worst than other because of that. these practices go way beyond apple and the tech industry, but people for some way have that need to love something and hate something to extreme fanboy rates. I would not be surprised that in the next 50 years people will treat their fav tech company as religions.

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First off, all of the apple haters out there who are saying "Louis Rossman this, Louis Rossman that" seriously, go search around on youtube and you'll find another Louis Rossman for every brand out there.

 

It's clear that he freaking hates his job and protrudes a lot of that hate onto apple products because likely the vast majority of people who bring them in are stupid. He's even said that most often the damage he deals with is caused by liquids. Now, do you... REALLY think that apple has the time to poke around on your personal board to find the fried component, then replace said component, then GUARANTEE it'll work for another X years? Hell no. I highly doubt ANY computer company would do that. PROVE ME WRONG. Do you REALLY think the people at the "genius bar" are smart enough to poke around your motherboard to find the fried component? Fuck no. Hell, I build robots and my own printed circuit boards and even I couldn't do that. Computer motherboards are wicked complicated, often with 4-6 layers of copper. Sure, it may look fine, but what if the copper in the 3rd layer heated just a bit too much and there is now a hairline fracture in the trace. It'll still work.... for a while. But that's not a risk apple is willing to take. Nor an expense. That type of job would require hiring TONS of electrical engineers. Do you know how much money it takes to hire an electrical engineer? A decent freaking amount that's what. In the end, the simple fact is that YOU can't fix your computer, therefore YOU have to pay someone ELSE to fix it. See "I" never cared about the cost of mac repairs because I always did them myself. Oh no I voided the warranty what shall I ever dooooo......

 

I do think how apple is trying to limit 3rd party repairs is shitty, but that's politics.

 

I do think how apple seems to pick form over function is shitty, but that's BUSINESS. Honestly, answer me this, how many people do you think will use an apple computer to the point where it thermal throttles? 10%? 20%? 

 

As for soldering stuff to motherboards.... you apple haters may want to look around in the ultra thin and light laptop category a bit more... I think you'll find many of the brands have done this. Sure, apple may have done it a bit more, but is that really a reason to crucify them? It's a cost saving measure, and 90% of apple owners never open their device anyway. You'd likely make the same decision in their shoes. "Who to cater to.... the 10% of our customers who are techies and will be smart enough to replace some ram or the 90% of college kids using mommy and daddy's money to buy a laptop for college?" Any business person who wants to continue to make money will always cater to the majority of their customers. Personally? I hate it, but hey, they, like linus media group, have to cater to the majority of their viewers, not the minority number of technies in the audience. 

 

The truth is... people have somehow gotten technologically dumb over the last 2 decades. In the 80s, you had to KNOW how to use your computer. You had to know how to program, how to use the command line, how to troubleshoot programs that didn't work, how to install drivers. Modern operating systems render all of these things null. They do it for you. I'd argue that the technological "intelligence" of the average computer user now has gone down since the 80s and 90s. Yes, WE are a tech community... mostly. WE don't like their decisions, but WE don't represent the majority of their profits. Hell, most of us don't even BUY prebuilt computers. Or, if we DO want a mac, we go on craigslist and buy it off of some sap who bought it 5 years ago and kitted it out with everything. Then you get a 5 year old computer with probably now mid range hardware at a fraction of the cost as if you were to buy it new. I'd argue that MOST of you have never even USED a mac long enough to "get used to it." You probably used it twice in your school's computer lab and said "This isn't windows" "Where's my start bar" "How do I quit applications." blah blah blah. Personally I think Mac OS is a vastly superior OS to Windows 7 or 10. Absolutely no comparison. It's built on a much better platform and it shows. It really does. 

 

As for the cost of their products? Meh. Yeah, they're a bit expensive for what you get. That's why you buy a used one on craigslist after the poor (or rather... rich) slub who bought it new wants an upgrade. But hey, it's a prebuilt, what can you expect? It's absolutely unfair to compare them to a home built PC. 

 

A lot of what makes me angry with people hating on apple is ignorance. People say "well why does it cost $X to give me 128GB more space when I can buy a 128 GB SSD for $50." Well, first off you need to start thinking. Apple solders these things to the motherboard so you're purchasing a product that there are fewer of. Secondly, that extra 128 GB would often have to fit in the same space that the original 32 GB sat in. Which means higher density chips, which means more expensive chips. It's not just 32 GB + 96 GB. It's literally taking the 4 8 GB chips out and replacing them with 4 32 GB chips. Do a bit of googling for the price of SD cards and you'll start to understand why that's an issue. (Actually 8 GB SD cards are expensive because they're rare now... not sure if the analogy will hold up.) And sure, if you actually DID do the math and figured out how much more it would cost apple for those more expensive chips, yes, I can guarantee you it'd be less that the extra cost they're charging you. But the fact is.... if you could do it.... you wouldn't have to pay them to do it for you.... You're paying them a service fee, essentially. (Not literally, but you get the point. It's something that you can't do, therefore they can charge whatever the hell they want for it you'll HAVE to pay it, because you can't do it.) If you're sick of the prices of their upgrades, just invest in a $300 hot air machine, go buy the new chips, spend another $100-$300 learning how to solder those chips without ruining the rest of the board (good luck) and do it yourself.

 

Now, you probably think I'm an Apple shill. Technically, I've owned an apple computer for all of my computer using life. I've had many other computers, and my main computer now is a win 10 machine I built myself. Personally, I don't like what apple has become right now. I hate the "thin and light" push they've seem to become stuck on. I want my beefy G5 mac back. I want the original Mac Pro. But alas, I represent a minority in their sales charts. I want an iPhone that's the same size of my iPhone 4... with bezels... that's pretty strong and a huge honkin battery, but again, I represent the minority. 

 

People like to pick on apple because their products don't have the same specs as a "comparable" PC, but what they refuse to remember is that apple is essentially a console. Apple is a playstation 4 pro while microsoft/any windows PC seller is... well... a PC. That playstation 4 can play games at 30/60 fps that your admittedly much more powerful PC can only play at 30/60 fps. How does that work? Well apple only has to deal with a small amount of hardware, meaning their software is better suited to USE that hardware, and makes use of lesser hardware better than an equivalent PC. 

 

Apple isn't developing these "shitty" products because they think they're good. They develop these products because they think they'll SELL. And they do.... in droves. Apple is a business, they're trying to make money. I HOPE.... that with their most recent round of iPhone sale "failures" that they'll start changing their mind and go back to the old days (When Steve was around), but I doubt it. At this point, this method has worked too well for too long. 

 

What really annoys me is the sheer disdain that LMG has for apple. Ever notice that when they make a video about a product they don't like that's NOT apple the product name is never in the title? But when it's an apple product, they plaster the name ALL OVER the clickbaity title. Because they know all you apple haters out there will sop it up and get the ad revenue flowing in. 

 

Apple dis videos seem to be LMG's cash cows. And from what I considered a once relatively unbiased tech review channel, it makes me sad. 

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1 minute ago, corrado33 said:

I HOPE.... that with their most recent round of iPhone sale "failures" that they'll start changing their mind and go back to the old days (When Steve was around), but I doubt it. At this point, this method has worked too well for too long

Did you see their stock price?

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On 1/10/2019 at 2:56 PM, campy said:

The big issue with Apple is that they have been lobbying for years to take away a consumers right to repair or use of 3rd party repair services.

This is slightly off topic, but that's actually a wider notion in the industrial/tech sector as a whole. John Deere for years has been trying to claim that they cannot allow farmers to service their own (newer) tractors because that would require releasing software tools, and Deere is making the claim that the farmers don't have any rights involving the software in the machines that they buy.

 

On 1/10/2019 at 2:14 PM, Henker said:

And everyone is going wild in the comments that people who buy Apple are stupid because they rip you off...

But in my opinion this is not a ripoff. It's a standard for their post warranty repair process.

Well, the point that Apple doesn't rip people off at all is debatable, but I have to agree with you that this is not a rip off. IMO it would be really stupid of a business to unilaterally repair all damage regardless of the cause or the extent. The line has to be drawn somewhere. Apple chose "when your device decides to go swimming", which I think is a fairly agreeable line.


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@corrado33 alsolutely agreed. i don't like the 'new' apple either. i wish they went back to the 2011-2012 formfactor of laptops. there's a lot of space in there if you remove the optical drive, so you'd actually ba able to fit a cooling system that can cool a decent 45W cpu, and can fit a keyboard with decent travel.


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Louis Rosssmann is a better technician than I am, and I agree with plenty he says, but he's just so damn angry all the time that I can't stand to listen to him for more than a few minutes. He's like a powder keg.


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On 1/10/2019 at 9:14 PM, Henker said:

They offer post warranty repair service, but it has boundaries. The policy is that they won't go fishing around for root cause analysis. In order to accept an item for repair, it must meet certain qualifications. Checking for water intrusion is one of them. All CBC has proved is that there is a market for computer repair. This is sensationalism, not journalism.

That would be all fine and good... EXCEPT Apple explicitly discourages going to third party repair shops and has repeatedly claimed their authorized service centers offer the best of the best. They don't tell you "we don't have the expertise to diagnose this, therefore we'll substitute the whole motherboard". They tell you substituting the motherboard is the only way to fix it and that will be 1100$ thank you very much.


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Not reading this thread - consumers are the problem, not Apple.  Apple is doing what the Consumer allows, and will do so as long as it remains the most profitable road.  Including getting sued.  If the lawsuits pennies to the dollars it wont change its habits.

 

People speaking with their wallets instead of their opinions however are the fastest and best way to make change in a world directed by Capitalism.

 

Capitalism is the legal racketeering of the rich.

 

EDIT - I started to read peoples opinions until people kept mentioning the word "wrong".  Right and wrong are super subjective and opinionated.  And can change with the wind of Society (enter; Slavery).

 

 


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14 hours ago, corrado33 said:

a big -snip-

so you're saying i can just completely disregard peoples opinions here on this forum because it's known that they hate the product they talk about?

 

the amount of

  • anti-Microsoft
  • anti-Intel
  • anti-NVidia

posts on this forum absolutely dwarf the anti-Apple ones.

 

The people i tend to disagree with most on the above topics would be @LAwLz @Delicieuxz and @jagdtigger. does that mean i should disregard their opinions? Absolutely not. there have been a number of things that i have changed my mind on because of the opinions of these 3, i still have disagreements but you need that, nothing is worse than an echo chamber. your own bias's can cloud your judgement, so you need people with opposing opinions to offset that.

 

People have the right to be upset with Apple, in fact it's generally the people that are the harshest that you should listen to, because 9 times out of 10 they actually have a legitimate reason for their "disdain" as you put it.

 

my Tech Philosophy has always been "judge the product, not the company". i Dislike Apple, i don't like their business practices, but i still bought an iPad like a month ago because it was better than the Android alternatives. you don't have to boycot an entire company's products just because you don't like them, especially if they offer something you want/need.

 

As for Louis, he repairs these things everyday, he makes a living repairing them, so hes in a better position to criticize how they are made than most people. most people don't care how much it costs to repair their PC if it means a lot to them, Apple just makes it unnecessarily hard to repair.

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It's down to opinion really, isn't it?

I personally think Apple products are just giant scams. Apple seem to have taken the quote "you get what you pay for" and thrown it in the bin.

You're not paying upwards of £1-2k on a quality product. Take LTT's video on the iMac Pro for example. Would a company that really cares about its customers release a product  that has no replacement parts and nobody that can actually fix them? It costs £4899 for the lowest spec model, and they have practically no support for it. 

Sure, business is business, but when designing your product, it should also be about the consumer.


 

 

 

 

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I can deny the holocaust too and call it my opinion but my opinion would be stupid. 


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But in my opinion this is not a ripoff.

How is a product whose warranty control designed to fail not a rip off?  If you live in a relatively humid area, it will void your warranty and Apple will refuse to repair.  The moment you break the seal, it could be void of warranty because of "water damage".  Please explain how you see a product designed to fail represented of a quality product?

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On 1/10/2019 at 3:14 PM, Henker said:

But in my opinion this is not a ripoff

Here's a summary of my past experience(s) with Apple: I've dropped and damaged many Apple devices (including iPhones, iPads, and iPods) and not once have I have I had to go to an Apple store to get them fixed because they were sturdy and well-built products, they just didn't break.

 

If someone's Apple device gets damaged, they probably made a stupid mistake (like not wearing a case, spilling water on it, etc.). Having used Apple products in the past (and I still use them in the present), I can tell you that their devices are robust and do not easily break.

 

Yes, Apple's repairs ARE a ripoff, there's no debate to be made on that. But if someone's Apple device breaks because of a stupid mistake, it's their fault and they deserve to pay the "Apple fee" in order to fix it. This is just my opinion, feel free to share yours.


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As a non AASP PC Tech Worker (Who sees plenty of apple products on my workbench): Apple is very much ripping off customers. Their charges are exorbitant and they go out of their way to make sure their policy is withheld on their terms. No non-AASP shop has direct access to apple parts supplies, only 3rd party or what little OEM products are sold elsewhere (often counterfit or otherwise illegitimate). Any PC company could lock down hardware the way apple does. Only allow WindowsOS, only provide parts to authorized service shops and create a difficult certification process like Apple does. But other than Microsoft themselves, nobody does. Why is this? It is anti-consumer and borderline legal.

 

Through thinly veiled claims of product and individual security they create anti-consumer practices only matched by Tesla and John Deere. Both have the same certification ideals and parts availability to individuals or non-certified companies. Meaning essentially nothing.

 

Even assuming that Apple doesn't like non-AASP people/businesses for an actually legitnimate reason (Possible data loss from the T2 chip, risk of inadequate tools damaging devices. Both of which I will admit are possible), they simply refuse to allow their consumers to hold on to devices for very long. Their policy for software support is 2 years (save for extreme circumstances), and hardware is 3-4 years. Once this time is passed, you're simply screwed if you wan't anything done. The only exceptions are when Apple loses class action lawsuits (6 series batteries and bending, so on). I tried this myself with my personal Macbook Pro that needed a logic board replacement. i got shut down, told to call an AASP and pray to god they have the part sitting on a dusty store shelf.

 

In comparison, if I were to call Lenovo right now and ask for any part for my X201 Tablet I would be offered every reasonable accommodation they could offer. Samsung openly sells components for every phone dating back to the S7 without any process other than a buy button. I could go on samsung's site and build myself a note 8 if I really wanted to. Would it be economical? No, but they're willing to allow anybody to fix their devices.

 

In summary: Apple offers 0 right to repair for end users, makes even AASP shops struggle to do their jobs (See: iMac Pro certification, parts ordering system, etc.), and forces those of us who don't wan't to or can't spend the time and money for a one-company certification to purchase products of questionable quality and legitimacy to repair devices. Apple themselves forces their own userbase to stay on a 2-3 year upgrade plan regardless of actual hardware benefits for the sole sake of more money in exec's pockets. Anti-Consumer? Yes. Illegal? I recommend calling your local congressmen and congresswomen and campaign for more consumer-orientated RTR and Consumer-Trust laws.

 

That is all,

 

SK


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Main PC: See spoiler tag

Laptop: Early 2014 Macbook Air. Intel i5-4260U, 4GB RAM, 128GB Apple PCI-E SSD, Intel HD Graphics 5000

Phones: iPhone 11 Pro Max, iPhone 6s, iPhone 5s, iPhone 3GS x2. Lots more in parts.

 

Spoiler

CPU: Intel Core i5-8600K 3.6 GHz 6-Core OEM/Tray Processor  (Purchased For $200.00) 
CPU Cooler: Corsair H50 57 CFM Liquid CPU Cooler  (Purchased For $0.00) 
Motherboard: MSI Z370M GAMING PRO AC Micro ATX LGA1151 Motherboard  (Purchased For $120.00) 
Memory: G.Skill Trident Z RGB 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR4-3000 Memory  (Purchased For $130.00) 
Storage: Kingston Predator 240 GB M.2-2280 NVME Solid State Drive  (Purchased For $40.00) 
Storage: Crucial MX300 1.05 TB 2.5" Solid State Drive  (Purchased For $100.00) 
Storage: Western Digital Red 8 TB 3.5" 5400RPM Internal Hard Drive  (Purchased For $180.00) 
Video Card: Gigabyte GeForce RTX 2070 8 GB WINDFORCE Video Card  (Purchased For $370.00) 
Power Supply: Corsair RMi 1000 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply  (Purchased For $120.00) 
Optical Drive: Asus BW-12B1ST/BLK/G/AS Blu-Ray/DVD/CD Writer  (Purchased For $75.00) 
Monitor: Dell U2417H 24.0" 1920x1080 60 Hz Monitor  (Purchased For $0.00) 
Monitor: LG 34UM69G-B 34.0" 2560x1080 75 Hz Monitor  (Purchased For $0.00) 
Custom: Cooler Master Stacker 830 Evolution Nvidia Edition  (Purchased For $60.00)
Total: $1395.00

身のなわたしはる果てぞ  悲しわたしはかりけるわたしは

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15 hours ago, corrado33 said:

What really annoys me is the sheer disdain that LMG has for apple. Ever notice that when they make a video about a product they don't like that's NOT apple the product name is never in the title? But when it's an apple product, they plaster the name ALL OVER the clickbaity title. Because they know all you apple haters out there will sop it up and get the ad revenue flowing in. 

 

Apple dis videos seem to be LMG's cash cows. And from what I considered a once relatively unbiased tech review channel, it makes me sad. 

Clickbait thumbnails and anti-apple sentiment, that's what drives traffic and what the pcmasterrace audience wants to hear. They are running a business after all. 

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1 minute ago, Umberto said:

Clickbait thumbnails and anti-apple sentiment, that's what drives traffic and what the pcmasterrace audience wants to hear. They are running a business after all. 

They do have legitimate anti-consumer practices as outlined in my post above. But I will admit that their ecosystem is beautiful so long as you walk between Apple's lines. macOS is more polished than Windows has been, and integration between mobile and desktop experiences is an order of magnitude better than Windows ever will be unless Windows mobile comes back.

 

Apple deserves hate, but as do Google, Microsoft, Huwei, Facebook, and Samsung. All major tech companies have their blemishes in record; Apple is just an easy punching bag.


Brands I wholeheartedly reccomend (though do have flawed products): Apple, Razer, Corsair, Asus, Gigabyte, bequiet!, Noctua, CoolerMaster, GSkill (RAM only)

 

Wall Of Fame (Informative people/People I like): @Glenwing @DrMacintosh @Schnoz @TempestCatto @LogicalDrm @Dan Castellaneta

Useful threads: 

Guide to Display Cables/Adapters

Spoiler

 

PSU Tier List (Latest)-

Spoiler

 

Motherboard Tier List

Spoiler

 

Main PC: See spoiler tag

Laptop: Early 2014 Macbook Air. Intel i5-4260U, 4GB RAM, 128GB Apple PCI-E SSD, Intel HD Graphics 5000

Phones: iPhone 11 Pro Max, iPhone 6s, iPhone 5s, iPhone 3GS x2. Lots more in parts.

 

Spoiler

CPU: Intel Core i5-8600K 3.6 GHz 6-Core OEM/Tray Processor  (Purchased For $200.00) 
CPU Cooler: Corsair H50 57 CFM Liquid CPU Cooler  (Purchased For $0.00) 
Motherboard: MSI Z370M GAMING PRO AC Micro ATX LGA1151 Motherboard  (Purchased For $120.00) 
Memory: G.Skill Trident Z RGB 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR4-3000 Memory  (Purchased For $130.00) 
Storage: Kingston Predator 240 GB M.2-2280 NVME Solid State Drive  (Purchased For $40.00) 
Storage: Crucial MX300 1.05 TB 2.5" Solid State Drive  (Purchased For $100.00) 
Storage: Western Digital Red 8 TB 3.5" 5400RPM Internal Hard Drive  (Purchased For $180.00) 
Video Card: Gigabyte GeForce RTX 2070 8 GB WINDFORCE Video Card  (Purchased For $370.00) 
Power Supply: Corsair RMi 1000 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply  (Purchased For $120.00) 
Optical Drive: Asus BW-12B1ST/BLK/G/AS Blu-Ray/DVD/CD Writer  (Purchased For $75.00) 
Monitor: Dell U2417H 24.0" 1920x1080 60 Hz Monitor  (Purchased For $0.00) 
Monitor: LG 34UM69G-B 34.0" 2560x1080 75 Hz Monitor  (Purchased For $0.00) 
Custom: Cooler Master Stacker 830 Evolution Nvidia Edition  (Purchased For $60.00)
Total: $1395.00

身のなわたしはる果てぞ  悲しわたしはかりけるわたしは

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I just want to chip in to say that I think many of you guys posting here are doing yourselves a great disservice by being "loyal" to a manufacturer. They just build stuff to make money, there's no need to start a religion around them. If you're such a shill that you literally have an apple logo as your avatar, you're honestly kind of hopeless. 

 

Anyhow, it doesn't matter if Samsung or any other company is similarly bad about repairing their products, that's a bad argument. Yes, other companies suck at repair and yes, like them, Apple IS "ripping you off", along with Samsung, Huawei and all the other big players. This is well known. The real thing which is at stake here is the "right to repair".

 

It's undeniable that Apple, Samsung, Huawei, LG are in this game to have your money. There's not a huge amount of money for them in repair, as it's a source of income that's directly in competition with their products. In fact, it's pretty clear and they're not trying to hide the fact that they want you to buy their products as often as possible, not repair them. So yeah, it's par for the course. Apple is incompetent, by design, at repairing their own products. But then again they all are, everywhere. Razer is the same with their peripherals, home appliances tend to last a few years and they're not particularly handy to repair.

 

And so this is why Louis Rossmann is pushing for a right to repair legislation. Big tech have the upper hand because they have so much leverage on the market that they're actively preventing people from repairing their own devices, and Apple is especially guilty of that. And people who say this boils down to capitalism and there's nothing that can be done, there are currently heaps of pro-consumer laws that protect you from certain unfair behavior by large corporations.

 

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5 minutes ago, Bynming said:

If you're such a shill that you literally have an apple logo as your avatar, you're honestly kind of hopeless. 

😁😁😁

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On 1/25/2019 at 6:56 PM, Umberto said:

😁😁😁

It's okay. I mean I have a penguin(probably Tux's brother or something) with an AK47 as my avatar. 


Sudo make me a sandwich 

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