Apple's claiming their headquarters is worth only $200

[peanuts104]

7 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

You see guys. This other company is doing the same horrible things as apple. That makes it less bad right? Oh wait that's not how that works. One does not excuse the other. I do understand fight the evaluation of a property if you think it's too high but 200 dollars is just stupid. Either come up with a reasonable number or get out. 

I agree the number is stupid but fighting property taxes isnt, and considering all the other business taxes and astronomical land values companies in California have to deal with, this is the result. 

 

While Apple is obviously profitable and could likely absorb the full tax hit without blinking, smaller companies with tighter margins sometimes need this tactic in order to keep the lights on especially in tax heavy states like California.  And sometimes the assessors get it wrong.  The counties like money too, and they can be known to artificially push values up for increased revenue, although that depends on the temperment of that particular jursdiction.

[S w a t s o n]

15 minutes ago, peanuts104 said:

Ahem.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Want-a-lower-tax-bill-So-do-Apple-and-Genentech-13148121.php?utm_campaign=thirdparty&utm_source=article&utm_medium=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sfgate.com%2Ftechnology%2Fbusinessinsider%2Farticle%2FApple-is-reportedly-arguing-that-buildings-at-its-13154475.php

 

"In the Bay Area, Genentech and Apple are particularly aggressive in opposing tax assessors..."

 

"Genentech, the biotech giant best known for making blockbuster cancer drugs, has been embroiled in an 18-year battle with San Mateo County over the value of hundreds of pieces of equipment and machinery and dozens of parcels of land in its sprawling South San Francisco headquarters. "

So not Google, also don't see any valuation as crazy as $200

[peanuts104]

2 minutes ago, Swatson said:

So not Google, also don't see any valuation as crazy as $200

Did you even read the article?

 

"

In Santa Clara County, more than half of the $76 billion in disputed assessments stems from property belonging to 10 large tech companies, including Apple, Google, Applied Materials and Sun Microsystems.

 

"Applied Materials, for instance, has 94 appeals totaling $6.1 billion in disputed value. Google has 132 appeals covering $2.7 billion in disputed value."

[S w a t s o n]

Just now, peanuts104 said:

Did you even read the article?

 

"

In Santa Clara County, more than half of the $76 billion in disputed assessments stems from property belonging to 10 large tech companies, including Apple, Google, Applied Materials and Sun Microsystems.

 

"Applied Materials, for instance, has 94 appeals totaling $6.1 billion in disputed value. Google has 132 appeals covering $2.7 billion in disputed value."

Right but the claim was that Google is using this tactic, namely MASSIVELY and purposefully undervaluing property. Disputing assessments is not the same thing

[S w a t s o n]

This is the claim you attempted to provide evidence for.

[peanuts104]

5 minutes ago, Swatson said:

Right but the claim was that Google is using this tactic, namely MASSIVELY and purposefully undervaluing property. Disputing assessments is not the same thing

Apple isn't determining the assessment though.  They submitted an opinion as an obvious negotiation tactic.  Apple is disputing $8.5 billion in total and Google is disputing $2.7 billion in total.  However, Google has 1/4 the amount of apppeals as Apple, 489 versus 132.  When you break it out, apple averages aprox $17 mil per appeal versus Google's higher $20 mil per appeal.  Google is doing the same damn thing.

Edited August 15, 2018 by peanuts104
Got my millions and millions mixed, fixed the numbers

[S w a t s o n]

2 minutes ago, peanuts104 said:

Apple isn't determining the assessment though.  They submitted an opinion as an obvious negotiation tactic.  Apple is disputing $8.5 million in total and Google is disputing $2.7 billion in total.  However, Google has 1/4 the amount of apppeals as Apple, 489 versus 132.  When you break it out, apple averages aprox $17k per appeal versus Google's higher $20k per appeal.  Google is doing the same damn thing.

Google is not submitting valuations of $200 on multimillion dollar properties, they aren't the same thing. It's completely fine to dispute property taxes, it's not fine to say your HQ (or former HQ) is worth $200.

[peanuts104]

14 minutes ago, Swatson said:

Google is not submitting valuations of $200 on multimillion dollar properties, they aren't the same thing. It's completely fine to dispute property taxes, it's not fine to say your HQ (or former HQ) is worth $200.

The only way you're going to have an average disputed value of $20 million per property is if you are doing exactly that, because I'm sure if you look at the average assessment for all 132 of those properties, it would be about $20 million. And no I'm not going to look through all 132 properties.  That seems like it would be a somewhat reasonable average number for an office building assessment in California.    And it's not just Apple or Google, it's all the tech companies most of the tech companies, though apparently Facebook has 0 appeals according to the article.  It is nonetheless a widely used practice.  

[potoooooooo]

2 hours ago, Swatson said:

Right but the claim was that Google is using this tactic, namely MASSIVELY and purposefully undervaluing property. Disputing assessments is not the same thing

That's literally exactly what apple is doing. The property was given a value, they disputed the value, claiming it was actually 200 dollars.

[S w a t s o n]

1 minute ago, potoooooooo said:

That's literally exactly what apple is doing. The property was given a value, they disputed the value, claiming it was actually 200 dollars.

Stop being obtuse. I obviously meant the process of normally disputing a property value. Intentionally lying (YES LYING) about property value is not the same as just disputing it. And dont try to say they aren't lying. No one, LITERALLY NO ONE would actually value that property at $200

[S w a t s o n]

2 hours ago, peanuts104 said:

The only way you're going to have an average disputed value of $20 million per property is if you are doing exactly that, because I'm sure if you look at the average assessment for all 132 of those properties, it would be about $20 million. And no I'm not going to look through all 132 properties.  That seems like it would be a somewhat reasonable average number for an office building assessment in California.    And it's not just Apple or Google, it's all the tech companies most of the tech companies, though apparently Facebook has 0 appeals according to the article.  It is nonetheless a widely used practice.  

Or maybe they think the property is just worth 20 million less on average? You realize most of these large high tech buildings plus land value are in the hundreds of millions in value right?

 

I should point out that averages are also a terrible way to look at this. If they think the googleplex which is almost certainly worth BILLIONS, was valued like 100 million too high, that's 5 buildings worth of 20 million "average" valuation difference

[Dylanc1500]

21 minutes ago, Swatson said:

Stop being obtuse. I obviously meant the process of normally disputing a property value. Intentionally lying (YES LYING) about property value is not the same as just disputing it. And dont try to say they aren't lying. No one, LITERALLY NO ONE would actually value that property at $200

I don't know, there are some people that wouldn't take it. Even if they were paid.

 

just poking a bit lol.

[potoooooooo]

35 minutes ago, Swatson said:

Stop being obtuse. I obviously meant the process of normally disputing a property value. Intentionally lying (YES LYING) about property value is not the same as just disputing it. And dont try to say they aren't lying. No one, LITERALLY NO ONE would actually value that property at $200

Literally the entire point is to lowball so that the government forced to respond with a better value. If they don't respond, then the tax value becomes 200 dollars. That's the point.

[S w a t s o n]

12 minutes ago, potoooooooo said:

Literally the entire point is to lowball so that the government forced to respond with a better value. If they don't respond, then the tax value becomes 200 dollars. That's the point.

No the point of disputing property taxes is not "blatantly lie so you can pay tax on a value of $200 because your paperwork got lost in the bureaucracy." The mental gymnastics on show in this thread is astounding, I'm out!

[Belgarathian]

13 hours ago, YedZed said:

You can't even buy a decent iPhone with $200  

I sold my iPhone 6 64GB with a replacement battery for $225 NZD. 

In hindsight, I could have gotten more...

[mr moose]

4 hours ago, Swatson said:

No the point of disputing property taxes is not "blatantly lie so you can pay tax on a value of $200 because your paperwork got lost in the bureaucracy." The mental gymnastics on show in this thread is astounding, I'm out!

????  not sure you understand how bureaucracy works.      It's not lying, it's haggling.  Not sure why you think there is any mental gymnastics going on it's pretty straight forward. 

[S w a t s o n]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

????  not sure you understand how bureaucracy works.      It's not lying, it's haggling.  Not sure why you think there is any mental gymnastics going on it's pretty straight forward. 

not sure you understand the definition of lying

[ARikozuM]

Time for California to just buy the property for $500 under eminent domain and remodel it as a school or park. Just have to blackmail Apple into either paying their taxes or saying goodbye to their "overvalued" property. 

[mr moose]

4 minutes ago, Swatson said:

not sure you understand the definition of lying

Value is a matter of perspective and metric. I think iphones are not worth the price tag they carry while dr mac thinks they are. Is one of us lying? Of course not,  Apple are just lowballing the value to start negotiations for an agreed value. 

[vorticalbox]

Tbf it's not in prime real estate.

 

 

[S w a t s o n]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

Value is a matter of perspective and metric. I think iphones are not worth the price tag they carry while dr mac thinks they are. Is one of us lying? Of course not,  Apple are just lowballing the value to start negotiations for an agreed value. 

If you were a mental gymnast in the olympics you'd be getting 10's from every judge. Value of a property likely worth over a billion doesn't translate to "oh well i totally think it's worth $200"

Apple should really be paying you guys for your hard work and dedication

[mr moose]

Just now, Swatson said:

If you were a mental gymnast in the olympics you'd be getting 10's from every judge. Value of a property likely worth over a billion doesn't translate to "oh well i totally think it's worth $200"

Apple should really be paying you guys for your hard work and dedication

You still don't get it.    Would you call an auctioneer a liar because house bidding starts below the reserve? or what about every shop that tickets the products slightly higher knowing the customer is going to ask for a discount?  It s the same thing just on a much larger scale.

[S w a t s o n]

4 minutes ago, mr moose said:

You still don't get it.    Would you call an auctioneer a liar because house bidding starts below the reserve? or what about every shop that tickets the products slightly higher knowing the customer is going to ask for a discount?  It s the same thing just on a much larger scale.

Government thinks it's worth 1 billion+

 

A valuation of 500 million from apple would have been haggling
A valuation of 100 million would have been misrepresenting the truth/ speaking falsehoods aka lying

A valuation of 1 million would have been insulting but at least they tried to be subtle
A valuation of $1 would have been an actual place holder

A valuation of $200 is what they somehow came up with

 

I want what you're smoking or is apple literally paying shills these days?

[peanuts104]

22 minutes ago, vorticalbox said:

Tbf it's not in prime real estate.

 

 

It really isn't, though it does have convenient access to highways.  But Apple going in there was going to change the dynamics of the neighborhood.  It wasn't just any old office that was being built.  With these big tech companies, prime estate isn't necessary because they're bringing in the traffic to the neighborhood, instead of relying on the neighborhood for the traffic. Access to highways was probably a big factor. Pretty close to 280 and the 85/280 interchange.

 

Also pretty close to the Norman Y. Mineta San Jose International Airport.  If you haven't heard of this airport, I wouldn't blame you.  I hadn't either before I looked for the closest airport.  However, for big international tech companies, it's a lower key entry point than your traditional airports.

[LAwLz]

29 minutes ago, Swatson said:

I want what you're smoking or is apple literally paying shills these days?

I strongly suggest you give up this conversation.

I've had a similar one with mr moose before and he won't give up. No matter what you say, or what logic you put forth, he won't change his mind or admit that what Apple is doing might be considered wrong.